Ivy_Grad Wrong; Ivies Not Necessarily Most Prestigious

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Note: this is TheKev’s ineighbor who sometimes borrows his screename. </p>

<p>Ivy_Grad and the other Ivy or Bust losers have one key thing wrong: the Ivies are OFTEN not the MOST prestigious universities.<br>
Allow me to expain:</p>

<li><p>Internationally, other universities are regarded as more prestigious and have better reputations and name recognition.
Degrees from UMichigan, Stanford or UTexas tend to hold more value than say someone with an from Dartmouth, Brown or even Princeton.
Likewise in certain regions, certain degrees carry more cachet. In the middle east and latin america, many of the students study at schools in oil-producing states Texas, Oklahoma and Louisiana. A degree from one of these state’s better schools, like Rice University is regarded as much more prestigious than one from the University of Pennsylvania (with the possible exception of Wharton) or Brown University. In the international science community, some degrees from Penn State are much more valuable than degrees from University of Pennsylvania.</p></li>
<li><p>Non-Ivy’s have better regarded programs in many areas.
In fact, I would venture to say that no field exists in which the Ivies are the highest regared across the board as the top.</p></li>
<li><p>Many universities and colleges are regarded as superior to or equivalent with the Ivys by most in america’s academic and business worlds.
For example: Stanford, Chicago, Texas, MIT, Duke, U of California-Berkeley, UCLA, Northwestern, Michigan, Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins and Cal-Tech. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Moreover there are many universities whose degrees are as valuable in the marketplace as a degree from an Ivy, even if they are less selective. For example, when I hire someone just out of school I give no edge to a Cornell grad or a princeton grad over someone who went to a slightly less selective school like George Washington or UMaryland Honors College.
One last note. Also as far as hiring decisions are concerned, where you went to school stops matter 3-10 years after you graduate, if not sooner.</p>

2

<p>A lot of what you said i agree with. I definately think however that if you include the Ivies and the schools you listed (Stanford, Chicago, Texas (though i dont really think Texas belongs on this list, its still very good), MIT, Duke, U of California-Berkeley, UCLA, Northwestern, Michigan, Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins and Cal-Tech) as well as the top handful of LACs there is definately a clear best of the best. </p>

<p>Certainly elite private school diplomas like MIT, Duke, Hopkins, Stanford etc carry at least as much weight as an Ivy one, especially the lesser ivies. Many of the best public schools (UMich, UCLA, UCB) are also in that range. </p>

<p>In some fields, there is definately a community of schools that breed influence, many on the list above. In politics for example, the really influential tend to have attended a handful of schools (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Hopkins, Georgetown, Chicago, GWU...or some of the big southern schools and gained fame there...examples definately include Texas and Emory but also Kentucky etc) but many of them are not ivy</p>

3

<p>" Internationally, other universities are regarded as more prestigious and have better reputations and name recognition"</p>

<p>how do you know? did you take a survey? or is that just your opinion? aka, worth as much as what i have to say?</p>

<p>"in fact, I would venture to say that no field exists in which the Ivies are the highest regared across the board as the top."</p>

<p>okay, not only does that not make sense, but if you meant that there is probably no one subject where the ivies take the top 8 places, ill agree, probably not. but thats not because theyre not good schools, but because theyre DIFFERENT SCHOOLS. just like mit and swarthmore have their different strengths, so do dartmouth and cornell.</p>

<p>and dont say "I give no edge to a Cornell grad or a princeton grad over someone who went to a slightly less selective school like George Washington or UMaryland Honors College." because there is a BIG difference between those schools, no offense, but DONT EVER try to cheapen someone accomplishments. it takes a lot more than just reading your text book to get in to Princeton or Cornell. i really hope i never have to work for you.</p>

<p>"and the other Ivy or Bust losers"</p>

<p>im not an ivy or bust kind of kid, to me, you sound just a little bitter. "loser"? come on, please, how old are you?</p>

4

<p>Of course there is no field in which Ivy League schools take the top 8 spots. As the poster above me said, each school has its own strengths. But if you look at some of the top business, medical, law schools, Ivy League schools occupy 30-40% of the top 10 spots. Considering there are only 8 Ivy League schools and thousands of other schools, I consider that to be rather significant.</p>

<p>What you say is obvious: that there are other great schools on the level of Ivy Leagues (Stanford, Northwestern, etc.) but in order to make your point, you resort to absolute hyperbole (equating George Washington or UMaryland with Cornell and Princeton? Come on).</p>

5

<p>" Internationally, other universities are regarded as more prestigious and have better reputations and name recognition"</p>

<p>This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. </p>

<p>If you seriously think that Harvard and Yale aren't the most prestigious and well-known universities in the world, you've got problems, BIG ones.</p>

6

<p>Hey this is the actual thekev. My neighbor is the CEO of an human resources and recruiting firm that staffs executives, including Fortune 100 CEOs. He used to run several companies recruiting programs. He went to Dartmouth.
That being said, I think the Ivies are great schools but are not the top 8.</p>

<p>Also I don't think Harvard and Yale are the most prestigious schools in the world. I think that Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge and MIT are.</p>

7

<p>Eh, only for people who don't know anything. </p>

<p>Oxford and Cambridge lost it all when England itself lost it all.</p>

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<p>thekev: I don't think anyone here believes the Ivy League schools represent the top 8 schools in America muchless the top 8 in the world. That is ludicrous. I don't think even Ivy_grad would take that position.</p>

<p>Your friend is clearly disenchanted with his experience at Dartmouth and obviously has a vendetta against the Ivy Leagues. Equally, ludicrous is saying that he gives no edge to a Princeton grad vs. a George Washington grad. Too bad his bias has carried over to his work.</p>

9

<p>"Degrees from UMichigan, Stanford or UTexas tend to hold more value than say someone with an from Dartmouth, Brown or even Princeton."</p>

<p>-Look, I can easily see Stanford beating out Dartmouth and Brown, and perhaps even Princeton...in fact, Stanford is better than the majority of ivies. But please, tell me in what nation do UMichigan and UTexas trump Princeton. </p>

<p>"Also as far as hiring decisions are concerned, where you went to school stops matter 3-10 years after you graduate, if not sooner."</p>

<p>-Ever hear of alumni networks?</p>

10

<p>This is absurd. Everyone always feels the need to lash out against ivy league schools as a group, often ignoring the fact that theyre all different. i think its pretty ridiculous to suggest that Harvard and Yale aren't prestigious in the international arena, and for this one 'CEO of a fortune 500' (yeah, sure) I can find ten thers who will say in a heart beat they'll sure as heck value a degree from Harvard or Yale over one from University of Texas. Lets not be stupid, right?
And no, I'm not some ivy loving freak, lol, I'm just an incredibly rational person, who's been abroad many times (hello, most international people haven't even heard of Rice, even though its a great school), and who won't give in to this darn ivy envy!
everyone get over it.</p>

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<p>as an international i can tell you that at least in my country to most well known schools are harvard, yale, penn-wharton, princeton, mit, and berkeley.</p>

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<p>First, I would normally never address a post that is effectively some kind of personal attack, but I feel compelled to at least address some of these charges. So let's begin.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Ivy_Grad and the other Ivy or Bust losers

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Is it the policy of this website to condone personal attacks? I don't think I have ever had an exchange with you nor have I insulted you. Finally, those who resort / stoop to doing so only serves to highlight the fact that one lacks the intellectual capacity to argue points on sheer merit.</p>

<p>
[quote]
1. Internationally, other universities are regarded as more prestigious and have better reputations and name recognition.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Let's talk credibility here. How do you back up this bold, bold statement. Have you taken some informal poll of the world citizens outside the US? Are you referring to some kind of international study that has been recognized? That being said, I, for one, HAVE international experience that I would argue is deeper than your average poster here (having spent time working and living in the following cities: London, Frankfurt, Hong Kong, Tokyo) - and I have to say that my Ivy degrees (Princeton and Wharton MBA have always been extremely well recognized everywhere I've gone) Further, most people I've met while working abroad have at least heard of the Ivy League - can't say that I can speak to the Big 10, Pac 10, ACC or others since I didn't have much opportunity to discuss them with many people.</p>

<p>
[quote]
2. Non-Ivy's have better regarded programs in many areas.
In fact, I would venture to say that no field exists in which the Ivies are the highest regared across the board as the top.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I challenge you to find ONE SINGLE COMMENT that I have posted that even comes close to making such a claim. Just because I have the audacity to defend the honor of the Ivies against an inherently biased anti-Ivy crowd, somehow I am going around making outrageous claims? Why don't you take a good look in the mirror before you make such accusations.</p>

<p>
[quote]
3. Many universities and colleges are regarded as superior to or equivalent with the Ivys by most in america's academic and business worlds.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Please see comment 2.</p>

<p>
[quote]
One last note. Also as far as hiring decisions are concerned, where you went to school stops matter 3-10 years after you graduate, if not sooner.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Please refer to a previous post of mine regarding this topic:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=35166&page=5&pp=20%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=35166&page=5&pp=20&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>(post 92)</p>

<p>On a final note, it seems that all I am doing is expressing my opinion - and really just defending claims / charges of "Ivies are way overrated". Further, I don't ever remember denigrating any particular non-Ivy institution - in fact, quite the opposite - there are many times I have stated that one can and does receive an excellent education across the country at non-Ivy institutions both at the public and private levels. But no such comments I've made should just be completely dismissed because such claims are made by "Ivy_Grad" and would somehow weaken your attacks on me, right? It's the classic strawman argument.</p>

<p>But it seems that since I have taken a rather strong view in defense of two Ivy institutions I attended, somehow I am branded as some kind of fanatic (very ironic indeed when there are clearly others here who make very broad and blanket statements added with personal attacks and insults)</p>

<p>Further, because I have taken a rather tongue-in-cheek moniker such as "Ivy_Grad" it seems that I now serve as the unofficial and convenient lightening rod for the "anti-Ivy" mob. Well, all I have to say is that those who have actually gone through and have actually bothered to READ THROUGH any of my posts will find that a large majority of my posts merely serve to counter others claims / charges in addition to defending my own position. I have never made a point to try and needlessly create controversy or fuel any flames. </p>

<p>So it seems it is some of those in the default "anti-Ivy" crowd who are the ones guilty of making blanket assumptions and, further, that those within this crowd even need to lower themselves to make insults and engage in personal attacks. I will not lower myself to that - though I would add as a final point that the sheer irony of these kind of threads is that they only serve to highlight what seems to be a massive inferiority complex.</p>

13

<p>There are a few things that bother me about anti-Ivy Leaguers, and the vehement pro Ivies. Yes, I will admit that the Ivy's are top-notch schools, each of them with a distinct flare. However, I do admit that many, many people may not fit personally/academically/etc. into an ivy, and, despite what the media/other outside sources say, THATS OKAY. If you don't fit into an ivy or just don't want to go to one, that's fine...most everyone will fit into their own college/university. </p>

<p>And when people use blanketing statements such as "an ivy league diploma and a state U diploma are equal in the job market," well that's not true. Yes, in some areas a prestigious degree is preferred but it is important that the international economy is still predominantly based on egalitarianism and meritocracy. If you have a degree from Yale, yet have accomplished nothing, you are not competitive in the job market. To be incredibly clich</p>

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<p>Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and MIT are the top colleges of the world. Those four are so prestigious that even a villager living in the steppes of Kazakstan would know about them. None of the other six ivies make the cut, and none of the thousands of other non-ivies make the cut.</p>

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<p>Ubermensch, Princeton makes the cut. As do Cambridge and Oxford. In the French speaking word, several French universities make the cut too. </p>

<p>I agree with the OP to an extent. In Europe and most of the developed world, schools with prominent graduate programs like Columbia, Penn, Chicago, Cornell, Michigan, Cal, etc... have a greater reputation than some other smaller schools.</p>

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<p>I'm just thinking, what a CEO!</p>

<p>(being... sarcastic :P)</p>

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<p>hahah and i forgot stanford (duh)</p>

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<p>You can sometimes measure a school by its peers or "overlap" schools. Whether your looking at the Fiske Guide, PR, Barrons or even on line sites like StudentReview.com, they are all consistent in saying one thing: Harvard, Yale, Princeton & Stanford overlap each other. On each of the school's pages (in the Guide books) the other three schools are mentioned as an overlaps (or other schools that the applicant is most likely to also apply to). They only compete with each other and occassionally MIT (when it comes to math and science) as America's PRESTIGE UNIVERSITIES. You do not see any of the other schools mentioned here. Check it out!</p>

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<p>Is this thread for real...it seems such a childish point to argue, but perhaps it's more consequential than I thought, since most American college grads will be seeking employment overseas. lol</p>

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<p>Kosuke, the fact that TheKev's neighbor does not prefer Cornell graduates to those from UMd Honors or GWU does not "cheapen" the accomplishments of Ivy Leaguers. He simply recognizes that graduates from other schools may be equally accomplished and it is necessary to look beyond the school name to find out more about the candidate. Agreed, that "it takes a lot more than just reading your text book to get in to Princeton or Cornell." But the same is true for many other colleges. Furthermore, TheKev's neighbor is talking about hiring college GRADUATES, so simply having gotten into a school four or more years ago is not as important as what the candidate did while there or afterwards. This is CollegeConfidential, so there is a lot of emphasis on college admissions here, but in the real world just getting into college is not the be-all and end-all of life.</p>

<p>Norcalguy and others think that it is ridiculous not to give an edge to Ivy graduates, but have you considered that maybe TheKev's neighbor has come up with a way of hiring people that produces good results? He is not compiling a college ranking list, he is judging among individual candidates to fill positions. Surely the fact that he thinks SOME non-Ivy graduates may be better qualified for SOME jobs than SOME Ivy graduates does not mean that he has a "vendetta" against the Ivy Leagues! And, filmxoxo17, the fact that an Ivy degree does not translate into a hiring preference with this HR official does not mean that he is "lashing out" at all the Ivies! He also didn't say that Harvard and Yale "aren't prestigious."</p>

<p>I also am a little tired of Ivy League students and graduates who are super-defensive and accuse others of having an inferiority complex or being envious just because we don't think that Ivies should always be preferred to non-Ivies. This is ALL that the OP was saying. Look, the OP did not attack your schools in any way! Is YOUR ego so weak that you have to freak out every time somebody suggests that going to an Ivy does not make you automatically superior?</p>