Ivy_Grad Wrong; Ivies Not Necessarily Most Prestigious

College Search & Selection
21

<p>thekev & August,</p>

<p>so what's your point?</p>

<p>That some schools that are not in the Ivy league are really good schools--even great schools! </p>

<p>Of course they are; I've never heard anyone say anything otherwise.</p>

<p>I sort of think that in Michigan and California and Virginia and Illinois and Maryland and North Carolina they already know that--that’s why their schools are filled with good and selective students; I don't necessarily think these students will sleep any better because thekev and August have confirmed this brute fact to be true--although, it’s always possible that you have more street-cred’ than I’m aware of in some regions of the country and in these far flung places they will see this as really grand-happy news.</p>

<p>So, given that it is indisputably true and obvious that there are many great schools in America, what's your point?</p>

<p>I’m guessing there may very well be a little pouting and resentment behind your flair for the obvious; or, maybe you didn’t know that we already aware of your regurgitated decree. </p>

<p>By the way, what about Swarthmore, Pomona, Williams, Amherst, Wellesley, Middlebury etc.--or is this another one of those research v liberal arts things? </p>

<p>So tired...so old.</p>

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<p>August: Obviously, not all Ivy League graduates will be better qualified than non-Ivy League graduates. But "all things equal" I would take a Princeton grad over a George Washington grad. Reread thekev's neighbor's first post again: </p>

<p>"when I hire someone just out of school I give no edge to a Cornell grad or a princeton grad over someone who went to a slightly less selective school like George Washington or UMaryland Honors College."</p>

<p>Obviously, he's not talking about someone with a 1.9 GPA at Cornell vs. someone with a 4.0 at UMaryland. I'm assuming he's talking about people with similar resumes. His implication is that he basically does not consider Princeton different from George Washington. I think that's ridiculous and I stand by that statement.</p>

<p>Beginning a post with "Ivy_Grad and the other Ivy or Bust losers" isn't the best way to start an "objective" post. No offense but his tone indicates he obviously carry some sort of intense bias against Ivy League schools and their students.</p>

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<p>Fountain Siren: I totally agree. Actually, the research school vs. LAC debate has some merit. This is simply a "let's pretend all Ivy League grads are stuck up and elitist" post. I haven't heard anyone, Ivy league student or not, say that the Ivy League schools represent the top 8 schools in every field which is what the OP seems to be implying. There's great schools outside of the Ivy Leagues. duh You don't have to make a statement like, "I give no edge to a Princeton grad vs. a UMaryland grad" to prove it.</p>

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<p>august, im sorry but, when you say that someone working hard in HS and getting in to princeton as opposed to gwu really didnt mean anything, i think you ARE cheapening their acomplishments.</p>

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<p>in terms of prestige, dartmouth, brown are not as great as Hopkins, Chicago, Berkeley.</p>

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<p>Hopkins is known primarily for their med grad school not their undergrad. Likewise for Berkeley too, well for their grad programs as a whole. I'm not too sure about U of Chicago so I won't comment on it.</p>

<p>On the flip-side, Dartmouth is primarily a liberal arts college minus the law, business, and medical schools. They focus more on their undergraduates and have excellent grad school placement. Dartmouth is more known for their undergrad instead of their limited grad programs. Thus, Hopkins and Berkely might have more name power. BUT when it comes to undergrad education...I think Dartmouth wins hands down.</p>

<p>In 2001, 87 Berkeley undergraduates applied to John Hopkins for med school. NONE got in. In addition, 62 Berkeley undergraduates applied to Harvard law and ONLY 2 matriculated there. hmmmm.... On the other hand, Wall Street Journal posted a feeder school article to the top grad schools ie John Hopkins med and Harvard law etc. Dartmouth came in around 7th place. Not too shabby eh?</p>

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<p>Don't hate on the Ivies!!!!!!!!!!!</p>

<p>If they don't mean anything why is it that almost every leader in government went to an ivy?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Those four are so prestigious that even a villager living in the steppes of Kazakstan would know about them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Have you ever gone to the steppes of Kazakstan and asked?</p>

<p>All of these are opinion and they are all equally valid and there is no right or wrong answer. Look, show me where in any official Ivy League school pamphlets they claim to be the top 8 school in the country/world/galaxy/multiverse/whatever? They DON'T. As much as we hate to admit it, we, the people on the application end of the admissions process, be we students, parents, counselors, whatever, are the ones that have created the Ivy hysteria. My point, like what FountainSiren said, is who exactly is thekev's neighbor addressing? Why did he feel it necessary to enlighten us all as to the fact that the Ivy League isn't the be-all and end-all of college. I mean, I personally haven't been able to fall asleep the lately because I didn't know your opinion of which non-Ivies were more prestigious internationally than some Ivies because I, being the foolish cattle that I am, automatically assumed the the 6 billion people not enrolled in Ivy League schools automatically bowed down to those 8 school in a manner bordering on fellation.</p>

<p>Jeffl claims that Dartmouth and Brown are not as prestigious as Hopkins, UChicago, and Berkeley. Well, what makes you say that, other than "I felt like it and I won't end up at an Ivy so I may as well start bashing them now." Unqualified statements like this are the first sign of incurable idiocy. I can't argue with you and prove to you that you're right or wrong because I really have no truly objective comparisons of these schools. And you know what? Neither do you. Apart from the fact that Dartmouth and Brown undergrad's goals are much different from the undergrad programs of Hopkins, UChicago, and Berkeley, which makes your comparison moronic to begin with, how exactly are you going to prove that Dartmouth and Brown aren't as "great" as those three? It's all a matter of taste. What does "great" mean anyway. It's completely unquantifiable. </p>

<p>I generally don't like to explicitly defend Ivies in this manner because yes, like many people here have said they have their pros and cons just like any other normal schools in the world. However, this post, like norcalguy said, is nothing other than a trollish "let's bash Ivy Leaguers as elitist because there'll be plenty of people with no first-hand experience who will agree with me anyway" post, and I am getting sick of them. I mean, I could just as easily start a thread right now about Duke not being as amazing as some people claim. But, Duke isn't an Ivy, so no one will care. So let me just say, thekev's neighbor, that if you went to college and eventually became the CEO of some big company or other, unless you like burned your diploma and wiped your memory of your college years chances are that at least some of the things that you learned at college, in this case at Dartmouth (gasp! an Ivy) helped you get to where you are today. So, how about, from now on, since you don't like Ivies so much, you get rid of your diploma and all shred of evidence that you attended the school that you did and never mention your college experience during future job interviews, OK? I don't think it's fair to go around websites writing posts extremely critical of a school or schools while at the same time reaping the benefits of attendance at one of the very schools that you bash by name (and I would have said the same thing if he had gone to a non-Ivy, I'm not saying that he's succesful because he went to Dartmouth, I'm saying that the fact that his completion of college, which in this case happens to be an Ivy League school, probably contributed to him being where he is today). For that matter, I'd like to know why the CEO of a company that works with Fortune 100 executives wastes his time on a website intended for college applicants? If you could clear that up for me that would be terrific.</p>

<p>I wrote this without reading most of the second page so unfortunately some of what I say sounds redundant.</p>

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<p>"If they don't mean anything why is it that almost every leader in government went to an ivy?"</p>

<p>Colin Powell has a masters from GW. =)</p>

<p>I am a student at GW, and it's a great school. However, Princeton is way harder to get into. If a CEO was looking for a candidate for a job, and the resumes were completely equal, then the more prestigious college graduate gets the job. I think that thekev meant to say that he would take a GW grad over an ivy grad if he felt like the GW grad had more to offer. However, he sounded like he equated a GW degree with Princeton. That's not really fair because Princeton accepts like 10% of it's students and GW accepts 38%. Granted, admissions isn't everything. GW has programs that Princeton doesn't have, and vice versa.</p>

<p>August is right, an ivy degree isn't an end all thing. Plenty of non-ivy graduates get jobs over ivy graduates. If you don't believe me, look up names of successful people. Tom Brokaw went to University of South Dakota. Katy Curic is a UVA graduate. Bill Gates doesn't even have a degree. Ronald Reagan was an Oberlin graduate. Condy Rice went to University of Denver. Obviously, there's plenty of successful ivy grads, also, but some people are just going to naturally be successful in the work-place. Personality, experience, people-skills, and articulation are more important qualities than where your college degree is from.</p>

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<p>Great post GWcolonial. And I really even hope that the selectivity of the school doesn't factor into it. It really should be the strength of the programs that should count for something.</p>

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<p>What about the Indian Institute of Technology? For approximately one-fifth of the world's population, it certainly gets more attention and prestige than any Ivy-League school.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
What about the Indian Institute of Technology? For approximately one-fifth of the world's population, it certainly gets more attention and prestige than any Ivy-League school.

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</p>

<p>What about it?</p>

<p>This particular post above singularly typifies exactly what I'm talking about. When did I or any other person ever proclaim that Ivy Institutions (or any one particular one) is THE MOST PRESTIGIOUS in the world? I certainly never have. And by the way, when was this discussion ever about which institution is the most prestigious in the world?</p>

<p>So what we have here is yet another example of someone making an anti-Ivy claim and then use that as a basis for measurement for everything else. </p>

<p>Lastly, if 1/5th of the world's population (you are obviously referring to the population of India) places IIT above the Ivies, then, I ask you:</p>

<p>Where exactly do the non-Ivy US institutions rank in this scenario? I believe that would be a much more relevant (and fair apples to apples) comparison in keeping with this particular childish thread.</p>

<p>For example, say I am having a discussion with someone about the relative strengths of Major League Baseball divisions. I am siding with the American League East teams (New York Yankees, Boston Red Sox, etc.) and another person is claiming that the AL East is crap and that the NL West is way stronger.</p>

<p>Then someone pops in and says, "who cares? Manchester United is the most popular sports franchise in the world!"</p>

<p>Eh? What's wrong with this picture?</p>

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<p>Kosuke, I suppose we have to agree to disagree. I'm just surprised that you find it so offensive that TKN (TheKev's Neighbor) does not give preference to Ivy League applicants. He simply made a statement about how he does his job. I'm sure that he recognizes, as a person, that it is harder to get into Princeton than GWU, but maybe in his capacity as a hiring manager he has not found that this translates into Princeton graduates necessarily doing better in general than GWU graduates in the particular jobs for which he is hiring. We don't even know what these jobs are! College admissions decisions are the responsibility of a few people, the admissions committee. And maybe the difference between what is valued by the Princeton admissions committee and what is valued by the GWU admissions committee does not coincide with particular qualities that translate into greater success at TKN's workplace.</p>

<p>So I find it hard to understand your taking offense. I myself went to Smith. Do you think I care if TKN says that he does not prefer Smith graduates to graduates of Pepperdine or Scripps? I chose to go to Smith because I thought it would provide the most fulfilling college experience for me, even though it did not happen to be the most selective college that accepted me. I don't feel that I am entitled to get a job over a Pepperdine or Scripps graduate even with all other things being equal. I don't feel that every person to whom I send my resume is obligated to be impressed with where I went to school. TKN is in charge of his business and his job is to use his experience and judgment to hire the best candidates as he sees fit -- not to uphold the USNWR rankings.</p>

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<p>But the truth of the matter lies in post #18 of this thread. It understood by all those in the KNOW: education, busines, academia, etc.</p>

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<p>I find it bizarre that such a successful business man frequents a college admissions type website under the username of his (teenaged?) neighbor. Interesting.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
"If they don't mean anything why is it that almost every leader in government went to an ivy?"</p>

<p>Colin Powell has a masters from GW. =)</p>

<p>I am a student at GW, and it's a great school. However, Princeton is way harder to get into. If a CEO was looking for a candidate for a job, and the resumes were completely equal, then the more prestigious college graduate gets the job. I think that thekev meant to say that he would take a GW grad over an ivy grad if he felt like the GW grad had more to offer. However, he sounded like he equated a GW degree with Princeton. That's not really fair because Princeton accepts like 10% of it's students and GW accepts 38%. Granted, admissions isn't everything. GW has programs that Princeton doesn't have, and vice versa.</p>

<p>August is right, an ivy degree isn't an end all thing. Plenty of non-ivy graduates get jobs over ivy graduates. If you don't believe me, look up names of successful people. Tom Brokaw went to University of South Dakota. Katy Curic is a UVA graduate. Bill Gates doesn't even have a degree. Ronald Reagan was an Oberlin graduate. Condy Rice went to University of Denver. Obviously, there's plenty of successful ivy grads, also, but some people are just going to naturally be successful in the work-place. Personality, experience, people-skills, and articulation are more important qualities than where your college degree is from.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's the point...no one's saying that a Princeton grad is going to be automatically smarter or whatever than a GW grad. That's as dumb as saying that someone who gets accepted to say GW and Princeton will automatically choose Princeton because it has a lower acceptance rate and that then the fact that he attended Princeton will make him automatically more succesful. That's not true and anyone who can breathe and think at the same time should realize this. It's just irritating that trolls like TKN put words in other people's mouths and claim that people say that your life is all-or-nothing depending on whether or not you get into an Ivy. High school applicants who don't know any better may say that. But none of the people that this guy claims to be attacking are that shallow. In fact, I've seen more people on this board bash Ivies as being overrated than I've seen people who claim that every school except for the Ivies sucks, by a ratio of about 160,000,000 to 1.</p>

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<p>To clear a few things up:
My neighbor is on here because he is a Big Brother and the kid he mentors is a junior in high school.
Also I was talking to him and what he said was that, from a hiring standpoint, a degree from a school like George Washington communicates the same thing to him that a degree from Princeton does, that message being that the prospective employee is intelligent and has performed well. He concedes that the odds are that the Princetonian performed better in academic setting than the GW student. But because academics are usually only part of the equation, differentiating between two people who are both significantly above average performers in an academic setting seldom proves necessary.</p>

<p>Also he loves Dartmouth and one of his kids might have gone to grad school there. I'll get back to you on that.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I find it bizarre that such a successful business man frequents a college admissions type website under the username of his (teenaged?) neighbor. Interesting.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>...and the personal assualts continue...</p>

<p>not that its any of your business, but I have a son and I have recently been reviewing my finances to ensure that tuition will be covered (grad and undergrad) - which originally led me to this site.</p>

<p>i guess parents are not welcome here... let me rephrase, parents with the word "Ivy" in his/her moniker are not welcome</p>

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<p>That's referring to TKN, the guy that just bashed you?</p>

<p>And it sure didn't sound like he likes Dartmouth from his post.</p>

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<p>There are many non-ivies that have just as much prestige as the ivy league schools, and not even just Stanford and MIT. I mean, in the end the ivy league is an athletic conference. Yes, people want to say they go to an ivy league school, but college should be more about getting a good education.</p>

<p>I'd say that Duke, Johns Hopkins, Caltech, Northwestern, and Georgetown all sound presitigous. Some people say that the thing about the ivy prestige is that they'll ALWAYS be good. However, the schools listed above have always been considered good as well. All of the ivy league schools are good, but being able to say you go to one should not be the determining factor in your selection process.</p>