JBHE Gives Reson for Affirmative Action in 2005

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Did you know that Affirmative Action is supposed to mean that if 2 equally qualified candidates are considered for an opportunity, the underrpresented minority would get the position?

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<p>No two applicants are even equally qualified. Do you want the physics guy who is working on cold fusion at home or the musical guy who plays oboe at the concert level? How do you say that they are equally qualified?</p>

<p>I'm going to go out on a limb and say four things. Pick any of the following to argue with.</p>

<p>1) URM's have statistically lower SAT scores. If you want to argue with this one, refer yourself to the JBHE data.</p>

<p>2) Diversity is good and not having diversity on college campuses would be bad.</p>

<p>3) If we did not have affirmative action in the sense of accepting URM's with lower SAT scores, the flagship universities would be largely white and asian enclaves, and this would be bad.</p>

<p>4) This is a hardship on some white and asian applicants, but they just have to deal with it since it is the same principle as the state condemning your house to build a highway over top of it. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.</p>

<p>I agree with everything you said...and I'm white. :)</p>

<p>I'm white too. Which brings up a point. I wonder to what extent whites and blacks think of AA in the same way. There is certainly some evidence that we don't see everything from the same viewpoint. Consider the OJ trial. I never thought that was all about whites going after a black guy, and blacks standing for him. I think it was about how blacks and whites view the police differently. Will Smith (Fresh Prince, Independence Day, MIB,...) once said that when a white person is in a street fight and the police arrive, the white person relaxes; but if it is a black person in the fight, when the police arrive is when the black person really starts to worry.</p>

<p>My point is that I think whites think in term of whether or not AA is fair or not. I can see both sides of it. It is fair in some ways and unfair in others. Honestly, it seems more unfair. What could be more unfair than favoring somebody based on their skin color? </p>

<p>My question is how much do blacks see it as a fairness issue, and how much are they thinking in terms of trying to help the black community. Whites are not trying to help the white community. Whites don't do that. </p>

<p>Fair or unfair, though, affirmative action is just a matter of practicality.</p>

<p>What could be more unfair than favoring somebody based on their skin color?
Two wrongs don't make a right. When will we be able to move on?</p>

<p>I agree with the premis of your 4 points but I don't agree with your view of how it works. I don't see it as URM versus non-URM.</p>

<p>Take the case of MIT again because they actually stated their policy towards URMs.</p>

<p>To make up for a deficiency in 2005 admits of URMs(14%) they tried harder and had a goal of 27% which is above their norm of 20% URMS. They also say that standards are not lowered in terms of Statistics for URMs. Whether that is true or nor it is their prerogative. They also say they review each application on it's own merits and I believe what they say.</p>

<p>When you get thousands of applications for only a few spots and you have a goal of a diverse class in terms of ethnic makeup then you need AA.</p>

<p>In a typical year it is likely that the number of URM applications is 20% of all applications as the percentage of URMs that take the SAT is 20%. Based on the matriculation rate of URMs you then have a goal, a real number in terms of URM admits. This year that number was increased to achieve 27%.</p>

<p>Once your goal is established the URMs are essentially competing with each other. The only time there would be competition against a non-URM would be when considering a special need to fill such as the oboe player.</p>

<p>Without AA you then have the situation where basically Asians and Whites are competing against each other and the makeup can be somewhat arbitrary. It is impractical to have AA where URMs (whether it be based on ethnicity or some other factor such as musical ability) and all applications are mixed and compared with each other and achieve proper diversity.</p>

<p>Using ethnicity as a selection criteria can be a sensitive subject for discussion and it is usually better to use some other factor such as athletes for discussion purposes because the same principle applies.</p>

<p>All in all if a college has AA and it states it up front and you don't like it, apply somewhere else.</p>

<p>Check out this NY Review of Books review of "When Affirmative Action was White," by Columbia professor Ira Katznelson.
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<p>"Ira Katznelson has made a major contribution to the affirmative action debate in his book When Affirmative Action Was White. ... He presents a new version of the argument that affirmative action is justified as compensation for historical wrongs against black people. Instead of going back to slavery, he maintains that people who are still alive (or have living children or grandchildren) and have been the victims of specific historical injustices can provide strong claims for restitution from the United States government, the direct source of these injustices. </p>

<p>Most of Katznelson's book is devoted to showing how the economic and social legislation of the 1930s and 1940s favored whites over blacks. Katznelson is not the first historian to argue that the New Deal and Fair Deal widened the gulf between whites and blacks in the United States, but he is the first to consider such discrimination as the principal justification for an ambitious affirmative action program that would include reparations for blacks.</p>

<p>The undeniable fact is that, by comparison with whites, blacks became relatively worse off during this per-iod. But this relative failure has been obscured by the equally undeniable fact that the material circumstances of African-Americans improved and were, on average, significantly better in 1950 than they had been in 1930. What Katznelson shows is that the Democratic social and economic policies of the Thirties and Forties were rigged so that whites got much more than a fair share of the benefits. </p>

<p>The primary cause of this inequity, Katznelson contends, was the influence of Southern segregationists within the Democratic Party. In the 1930s, when the first New Deal policies were being enacted, white Southern congressmen provided necessary votes for liberal measures that strengthened the labor movement, set minimum wages, and gave relief or temporary work to the unemployed. But they did so only on the condition that the Southern racial order remain insulated against federal actions that might threaten it. The cooperation of New Dealers and segregationists broke down in the 1940s, when a strengthened labor movement began to look south and consider organizing blacks as well as whites. At that point, a new coalition of Northern Republicans and Southern Democrats succeeded in stopping the advance of organized labor, especially by passing the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947, which put heavy restrictions on union organizing. ...</p>

<p>The New Deal policies that worsened the situation of blacks were not overtly discriminatory. The primary device used by Southern white supremacists was to exclude agricultural laborers and domestic servants from coverage under the Social Security Act and National Labor Relations Act of 1935 and the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938. Since these were the occupations of most Southern blacks and of much smaller proportions of Southern whites, such exclusions meant that most blacks were being left out of the new welfare state and denied the same chance to escape from poverty that was available to many relatively poor whites. In the South, therefore, the New Deal actually had the effect of strengthen-ing the economic basis of white privilege."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18450%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nybooks.com/articles/18450&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>apparently you dont know the definition of "reverse-discrimination"</p>

<p>"3) If we did not have affirmative action in the sense of accepting URM's with lower SAT scores, the flagship universities would be largely white and asian enclaves, and this would be bad."</p>

<p>Bad? Bad that asians and whites studied diligently and did well enough on standardized testing and school to get into college? Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. College admissions is based on what you've achieved, not on your ethnicity/race.</p>

<p>"4) This is a hardship on some white and asian applicants, but they just have to deal with it since it is the same principle as the state condemning your house to build a highway over top of it. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."</p>

<p>Eminent domain doesnt screw the homeowner, per se, because he is given reparation. Asians and whites just get shoved aside for underqualified URMS</p>

<p>Northstarmom: Although I can understand AA being justified in terms of history's wrongs being righted, I don't think it is an effective argument with whites. Once you go back 200 years, people (whites) are not going to stop there. The word "slave" is derived from "Slavic" because of the huge number of Slavs enslaved in Europe during an earlier time. The early colonists did not just go to Africa and capture their own slaves. They brought the Africans that were being taken to America from other Africans. Slavery was huge in Africa at the time. Besides, whites are generally not going to understand why somebody should get an advantage because of what happened to their great grandparents. Historical arguments perhaps fit the "black" viewpoint quite well, but you aren't trying to convince people with the "white" viewpoint. The historical argument can be used to explain why blacks are socioeconomically worse off, but it is not a direct argument for AA (IMO).</p>

<p>Probably it just comes down to an argument of fairness. In the above posts, AA is attacked as being unfair. It is, assuming that SAT scores are an indicator of preparedness for college. You may find that attempts to discredit the SAT test are not going to fly with "whites". Blacks see discrimination in things like tests, but whites don't. A white is going to just ask how can there be discrimination in a math/English test. Hey, it is math. Hey, we all speak English or we ought to. A fairness issue that I think that people should consider is that blacks are statistically coming from poorer public schools and it is harder for them to get higher SAT scores because of that. To me, an applicant with a 1350/1600 from a high school having an average of 750 is much more worthy of being accepted than an applicant with a 1550 from a high school having an average of 1300. For this reason, I think that a lower scoring URM deserves to go to HYP. (The immediate problem with the argument are the URM's in rich private schools who also benefit from AA).</p>

<p>Other good arguments for AA beyond fairness are diversity and practicality.</p>

<p>In my opinion, bad arguments for AA are historical wrongs being righted, and the premise that the SAT test is biased.</p>

<p>I disagree with people thinking that 'diversity' is strictly in terms of race and that percentage of URMs defines diversity. Most obvious, race hardly defines anything of a person's personality, hobbies, interests, beliefs, etc.</p>

<p>I guess the country of France is not diverse, the overwhelming majority of people there are French.</p>

<p>Heck, the continent of Asia is not very diverse. Its brimming with Asians. If you go to asia, all you're gonna find is a conclave of Asians. There won't be any interesting opinions or culture in sight.</p>

<p>Top universites were created for the top students. I understand that one may think blacks come from poorer schools (the only coherent arguent in support of AA anywhere), but again I would think the name/class rank of that school would already be considered a factor, not to mention whites got to poor schools and blacks to rich private ones. So really any sort of AA should be based on socioeconomic factors, if even that since name/class rank at school is already accounted for.</p>

<p>Btw, reparations white vs black amongst different generations is laughable. Are we really gonna go tit for tat, eye for an eye, so that people who havent actually suffered can get revenge against ppl who really didnt do anything? A person shouldn't be held responsible for another person's actions that occured before they were born.</p>

<p>In short, AA is a very flawed process, and let's leave it at that.</p>

<p>lets NOT leave it at that. lets fix the screwed up educational system.</p>

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Are we really gonna go tit for tat, eye for an eye, so that people who havent actually suffered can get revenge against ppl who rI really didnt do anything?

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You echo precisely the point I was trying to make in post #84. Even convicted felons have an end to their "payback" time. How long will we need to pay for wrongs committed by previous generations? My children apparently do. Will my grandchildren? My great-grandchildren?</p>

<p>" guess the country of France is not diverse, the overwhelming majority of people there are French.</p>

<p>Heck, the continent of Asia is not very diverse. Its brimming with Asians. If you go to asia, all you're gonna find is a conclave of Asians. There won't be any interesting opinions or culture in sight."</p>

<p>You're joking or being sarcastic? </p>

<p>French is a very diverse country, with major racial problems as anyone knows who followed the recent riots. While the French don't keep census figures by race, there still are major race and ethnicity-related problems in that those of African, Caribbean and Middle Eastern descent are less likely to have decent jobs, are more likely to be poor and are more likely to drop out of high school and not go to college. </p>

<p>As for Asians, they certainly are not all alike.</p>

<p>"Top universites were created for the top students."</p>

<p>Yes, and they only accept students of all races who qualify for admission. That's why the graduation rate for black students at places like HPYS and other elite colleges is sky high. Just look up the figures, which you can find on the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education site. The highest graduation rates for black students in the country are at places like Harvard, Amherst, etc., where about 9 in 10 black students who attend graduate. There is no evidence that the students are dropping out or flunking out because they lack the ability to make it at such demanding places.</p>

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" guess the country of France is not diverse, the overwhelming majority of people there are French.</p>

<p>Heck, the continent of Asia is not very diverse. Its brimming with Asians. If you go to asia, all you're gonna find is a conclave of Asians. There won't be any interesting opinions or culture in sight."</p>

<p>You're joking or being sarcastic?

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<p>I interpreted that as a sarcastic comment. The point was that simply having race differences does NOT equal diversity. You can have diversity if everyone is French just as you can have diversity if everyone is only of one race. I, too, have never totally agreed with the use of the word "diversity". If there is any real cultural difference between blacks and white, I think it is only because statistically black come from poorer neighborhoods. It isn't "Wow, I got to go to school with somebody from Russia." However, having URM's on college campuses does introduce differing points of view. Does anyone else feel that the whole country would just be better off without races? If you do, that seems to imply that "diversity" isn't all that great.</p>

<p>sometimes blacks,hispanics and native americans apply to top schools overcoming the odds, struggling through adversity and deserve to be given a helping hand</p>

<p>HOWEVER, at top colleges, the majority of these minorities that apply to top colleges are the ones with ADVANTAGED socioeconomic backgrounds and who have rich parents who could afford them sat prep classes and such... do they deserve AA? Hell NO</p>