<p>Hi all,</p>
<p>I have become more religious recently and pray everyday in the morning. I pray in an Orthodox service because that is where I feel the most comfortable talking to G-d.</p>
<p>Anyways the school I will be attending as many Jews but none that pray in an Orthodox minyan. I keep asking if anyone will and always girls say they are willing to help out. The thing is girls dont participate in orthodox minyans.</p>
<p>what should I do and say without offending anyone.</p>
<p>I would contact your Hillel's director or a campus chaplain about finding an Orthodox minyan near campus. Where are you going to college, if you don't mind me asking?</p>
<p>I have done that... but I would like one on campus so I dont have to drive every morning</p>
<p>Then you're probably out of luck. You can of course try to start a daily Orthodox minyan when you get to school, advertise it through the Hillel and any other Jewish orgs, etc. If that doesn't work, oh well. It's not like there's no local option.</p>
<p>As for telling women who offer to help you out that they can't without offending them... in many cases, not possible. Some people are going to be pretty offended that you require a minyan which doesn't include them. Can't you understand why that would be the case?</p>
<p>I have offended people before with this issue. It just seems that most people dont have a good Jewish education... I for one have gotten the best jewish education in the country for 13 years and now I am dealing with people who are not knowledgeable about this issue</p>
<p>So you've decided that anyone who disagrees with you must be ignorant. Good job, great way to not offend people!</p>
<p>Yes, most people with a good Jewish education know that Orthodox minyanim discriminate against women. Doesn't mean you should be exempt from justifying your preference for praying that way.</p>
<p>Maybe you should think harder about why a minyan that doesn't include women could be offensive to some people. Until you understand that, you're going to come off as a douchebag when you try to explain what kind of minyan you're looking for.</p>
<p>^^
Live and let live is how I respond to this situation.
To the OP: Good luck finding your niche. It may be hard to find an Orthodox minyan (in close proximity), though. Sorry I can't be more helpful.</p>
<p>As a woman raised in the Jewish tradition I have to that that this aspect of Judaism forced me out of the religion. The last straw was when I couldn't be a pall-bearer at my fathers funeral and my brother could. I have ehard all about how important Jewish women are, but I don't buy the "separate but equal argument." </p>
<p>I am not judging the OP, but I am judging the ritual he is devoted to, just as I would critique sexist rituals from any other religion as well. There are groups, Reconstructionists for example, who do allow women in a minyan. To me, this is a forward thinking attitude.</p>
<p>If the OP feels comfortable with this ritual, I don't see the harm in explaining to girls that an Orthodox Jewish ritual doesn't allow women to be counted in a minyan.</p>
<p>Pseudonym
....</p>
<p>The reason I came to this forum is to see if you knew of a way to not offend anybody. </p>
<p>You guys are not being very helpful, just hyper critical of a delicate situation.</p>
<p>Wow</p>
<p>mythmom, you don't have to go as far as Reconstructionist to find a Jewish movement that counts women in the minyan. Conservative (even Conservative leaning towards Orthodox) and Reform also count women. Women can chant Torah, and women can be rabbis.</p>
<p>To the OP, a simple, "I'm sorry, but Orthodox ritual requires 10 men for the prayer service I'm proposing" should be sufficient. If the women want further information, suggest some readings that might explain the rationale better than you can.</p>
<p>If there's a local Chabad, you may want to contact them. They may be willing to hold a minyan at least some days at your school.</p>
<p>Chedva,</p>
<p>I plan on going to Chabad if I cant find a minyan. I go to Chabad now at home.</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
<p>My point was that many people are going to be offended by the basic concept, regardless of how you phrase it. I think that's a pretty helpful insight, and one which you didn't seem to have considered before--you're looking for a way to make a practice many people find discriminatory seem palatable, without really trying to understand the ethical qualms people might have. That's not going to work so well, so my suggestion was to try and see where people who might be offended are coming from, rather than discount any potential disagreement as ignorant.</p>
<p>Yes, I'm being critical. I don't think I'm being overly so. As someone with an excellent Jewish education, I find Orthodox Judaism's insistence on excluding women to be abhorrent and contrary to Jewish ideals.</p>
<p>Some people will be surprised but fine with it if you simply say politely "I appreciate your offer, but Orthodox minyans don't count women." Some people will be horrified and offended. The people in the latter group probably won't be swayed by any way you present it, particularly if you don't feel like doing the hard work of taking a critical look at the tradition.</p>
<p>I just think that you were a little strong in your response.</p>
<p>Nothing you have said is new to me. I grew up in a Conservative household. I went to Eastern Europe to see the concentration camps and realized the Orthodox lifestyle is much more fitting for me.</p>
<p>To the OP, I wish you much luck in your quest for an orthodox minyan. I also grew up conservative and am trying to become more observant. If for some reason you can't make it to Chabad, and can't daven with a minyan, one option you might want to explore is davening by yourself. While this may not be the most welcoming option, it is a viable one. If you do this, you should learn some of the rules involved. There would be certain prayers you can not say (such as the repetition of the Aliyah). Good luck with attending the Chabad House, I've bet to quite a few and have yet to find one that was anything but nice, warm, and very welcoming.</p>
<p>In defense of the OP, I can't help but laugh at all of the people who came to this thread and called the OP and Jewish Orthodoxy every name in the book. I can't believe the hypocrisies in people making the Orthodox community out to be intolerant of other viewpoints; yet those very same accusers have an automatic knee-jerk reaction in which once they see/hear the word "Orthodox" they automatically say sexism and intolerance. What about being tolerant of the Orthodox point of view? </p>
<p>I'll get off my soapbox now...</p>
<p>thanks ESD.
Often I daven by myself and no how to do it properly. </p>
<p>Chabad is the most welcoming Jewish center I have ever been to.</p>
<p>Maybe should be less critical and see Chabad (which is Orthodox) and see how tolerant and open they are to ALL branches of Judaism. I follow Chabad Orthodoxy.</p>
<p>I couldn't agree more with you about Chabad!</p>
<p>I am FAR from considering myself a Lubavitcher, but I must say I truly admire the entire Chabad movement, and especially the Rebbe, ZT"L, he was an incredibly kind and caring man who cared for everyone, Jew or Non-Jew.</p>
<p>For those who maybe reading this who don't know about Chabad, it is a sect of Hasidic Jews, but is open to everyone and anyone. Their full name is Chabad-Lubavitch. While followers, known as Lubavitchers, live by Orthodox Jewish rules of life, they have immense respect for everyone from all walks of life (Jewish and Non-Jewish alike). Chabad "Houses" or local synagogues often provide services (soup kitchens, advice, etc.) for the entire community (Jews and Non-Jews) they are in. One Chabad's most famous members is the reggae artist Matisyahu.</p>
<p>You can find a Chabad house pretty much everywhere.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.chabad.org%5B/url%5D">www.chabad.org</a></p>
<p>But here is a little story about Chabad. My cousins bar Mitzvah was this year and he has a Homosexual uncle. Chabad was very open to this guy and even gave him an Aliyah.</p>
<p>There is not discrimination. A Jew is a Jew.</p>
<p>The rabbi at Boston University's Hillel is Lubavitch. For the High Holy Days, he led the Conservative service, which involved women leading parts of the service, and of course had men and women sitting together. (The assistant rabbi led the Reform service, and learned Orthodox students led the Orthodox service.) </p>
<p>He was the most warm and caring rabbi I have ever known. He did not attempt to proselytize anyone; he took you at face value from wherever you were spiritually. His comment was, "Whatever you do today that is any bit more than you did yesterday is enough."</p>
<p>As far as the sexism of Orthodoxy (and I do not agree with the ritual restrictions on women during services), it is necessary to look at the other side as well. Did you know that during the wedding ceremony, all promises go from the groom to the bride? The bride promises nothing. Did you know that it has always been the husband's duty to please his wife sexually, and the wife has no reciprocal duty? Did you know that it has always been a sin to rape one's wife?</p>
<p>We could go back and forth with advantages and disadvantages for women under Orthodoxy, and it is quite appropriate for individuals to accept or reject those teachings, but I believe it's going a bit far to dismiss the entire Orthodox movement.</p>
<p>What college are you going to? Private Message me. Don't go to a school with no minyan if you want to continue doing what you're doing now. It's very hard in college. Very. Even when I have a minyan easily available to me.</p>
<p>Chedva, it's not like the positive aspects you referenced are unique to the Orthodox movement! Yes, I know about them. I'm well aware of how ahead of the curve Judaism has been historically in its treatment of women, and the specific protections you mentioned are alive and well in ALL types of Judaism today. However, some strands of Judaism have extended that spirit of inclusion and fair treatment into modernity. Orthodox Judaism hasn't. Considering marital rape a sin was a big deal in ancient times. Now, it should be a pretty basic expectation. Orthodoxy doesn't get a cookie for disallowing rape. I'm not dismissing an entire movement, I'm critiquing an exclusionary practice. That doesn't mean there aren't things Orthodox Judaism does right, but the things that are nice about their way of practicing don't give them immunity from criticism.</p>
<p>As for Chabad... oy. Plenty of Lubavitcher Chasidim are perfectly nice people. However, there's a lot of condescension in their "acceptance". They might let me in the Chabad house, but what kind of acceptance is that if they still think I'm doing everything wrong and that my type of Judaism is inferior? Ooh, look, they didn't openly exclude someone because of his homosexuality... but they still think it's wrong. How is that acceptance?</p>
<p>And please people, stop confusing criticism with intolerance. My reaction is not "knee-jerk", it's tied to my distaste for a particular way that Orthodox Judaism views and treats women. Tolerance isn't a very useful ideal when you use it to justify discrimination.</p>