<p>I’m not quite sure I understand your question, LongPrime.</p>
<p>I think LongPrime is talking about the possibility of being overqualified for a job.</p>
<p>Except that LongPrime fails to acknowledge that sometimes companies seek either. Just go on Monster.com and you will occasionally find ads asking for a BS degree and MS preferred/a plus.</p>
<p>"it is highly likely that the graduate program he is attending has a good record of placing students in good positions. "</p>
<p>The students in my research group have all founds jobs with reputable companies. They were flown around the country and had multiple offers. However, the last batch of students graduated a couple years ago in better economic times. </p>
<p>I’ve performed 2 “rounds” of jobhunts recently. The first was from January to February of this year for a summer placement while I decided on grad school. This resulted in 6 interviews and 3 offers although 1 of the companies backed out due to financial reasons so I guess thats 2 actual offers. I decided to work at school to see how I like it and didn’t consider that in my interview or offer count above.</p>
<p>I got busy with exams and projects but afterwards in I conducted another round this time focusing only on my city [my other hunt was for all of Canada]. This resulted in 3 interviews and 1 offer so far with 2 more results to come. </p>
<p>So i guess those are my employability stats. </p>
<p>One thing that may favour working is that the company that is offering me a position is the same type of company that the students in my research group go to. While nobody from my group works here, they are working for rival companies. I’m wondering if I’ll just end up at a similar place and start at the bottom after graduate school.</p>
<p>I agree with Inmotion12. I think what this all comes down to is adaptation to the current times. </p>
<p>For example, I happen to have a BS and happen to get a job 2/3rds of the way through an MS program. In the Master’s program, I noticed that about half ‘already had jobs’ (1996-1997). And most were having their MS paid for by their companies.</p>
<p>The last time I checked, alot of the Master’s students that didn’t work while they got their degrees, still didn’t have jobs. And probably lost in competition to the MS students that were working while going to school.</p>
<p>Not all companies work the same, but it almost seemed like there is a ‘secret back door’ of networking. I didn’t get recommendations through professor’s aid, but through peers I worked with in the class environment ‘that had jobs’. </p>
<p>Once in the company and having worked at a lower level for a while, I was told it was unnecessary for me to go through an astringent interview process for the promotion they were giving me because they already knew how I worked. At about the same time, I noticed another section in the company, interviewing MS recent grads for an entry level engineering position. This interview process was going over months and with requests that the NCGs give formal presentations, which in the end, resulted in hiring no one, because no one would agree with each other on who to hire. In the end, managers seemed more than likely, to internally promote a BS engineering student that strangely slipped in through operator, then tech, because that person was much more trustworthy for the company’s processes.</p>
<p>I’ve also seen employees get laid off for having a higher salary for their expected roles in the company. Either they expected more from that person, or they could find a BS employee that is paid less but with higher performance. And in reality, these days, some BS grad students are just happy to get their first job and their first promotion. The unsaid, is that the lower paid, high performance employees are probably a threat to the stability of some other, higher degreed, higher paid employees.</p>
<p>I’m really torn about going back for anything higher than an MS, just because, unlike an MS, you have to be a full time student to finish a Ph.D. Which, under logic, calculates to a negative cash flow for an extended period of time. That, and people at work have been talking about NCG Ph.D’s becoming custodians because of the economic situations these days.</p>
<p>Refer to PurdueEE under:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/engineering-majors/716462-whats-average-entry-level-engineering-job-like.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/engineering-majors/716462-whats-average-entry-level-engineering-job-like.html</a></p>
<p>As I am somewhat convinced that a Ph.D should only be pursued if you are “truly awesome”. And if money is not an issue, you really like the field of topic and passionately want to teach it and do research in an academic setting. So, although I’d want to participate in the bandwagon Ph.D effect, I find turning down a steady income, these days, terrifying. </p>
<p>Anyways, it’s good to get the feet wet in the working world, and after realization of needing more education, get a higher degree as a supplement to current work experience. That in addition to it’s who you know (I’m sure this could start a new thread of stories).</p>
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<p>That isn’t a fair assessment, though. That is like saying that healthy patients that go to a doctor have a higher survival rate than those who are going to a doctor and also happen to have cancer. The cards are stacked from the get go. Obviously the students who were already employed and were their on the dime of their company would have better employment statistics… they are already employed. By definition, they will have a 100% placement rate.</p>
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<p>You just refuted your own argument here. If they can get a BS employee with higher performance, then the MS isn’t what is causing the other guy to get laid off, it is his performance.</p>
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<p>The negative cash flow is a moot point because of one fact. A Ph.D. serves a completely different purpose from an MS. For the most part, people get an MS to increase their value in their current jobs or to start at a slightly higher salary and with slightly higher responsibility than their BS counterparts. Some use it as a way to get directly into an R&D role instead of having to go through the ranks at a company first. Still, for the most part, MS holders are competing for similar jobs as BS holders. A Ph.D. opens up an entirely new class of jobs (while admittedly closing out quite a few as well). The problem arises when people don’t understand this, get a Ph.D., and then try and get jobs for which they are now overqualified. Assuming they had a reputable advisor, most Ph.D. students should have no real problem finding jobs. In fact, the unemployment rate for Ph.D. engineers right now is significantly lower than that of the general engineering population. Forgive me though, as I can’t find the source that I got that from. It was referenced in these forums at some point within the last few months though.</p>
<p>So really, negative cash flow is not an issue, because for the vast majority of the people pursuing a Ph.D., the jobs they are targeting are 100% unattainable unless they have a Ph.D. If someone wants to do true research and they decide to get a job and not a Ph.D., reasoning that they will some day work their way up the ranks into a top research position while not having to deal with “negative cash flow”, they are just kidding themselves. It doesn’t happen. Add to that the fact that nearly 100% of engineering Ph.D. students are funded. A Ph.D. is really an entirely different animal than an MS.</p>
<p>Boneh3ad, you are 100% correct. I thought a Ph.D. was the final step in the education process; thankfully, I was informed Ph.D.s are just a “special designation” that allows you to work on certain types of projects. Basically, if one wants to do basic scientific/academic research, one obtains a Ph.D.</p>
<p>It’s like becoming a lawyer. You need a J.D. to work as a lawyer but the J.D. is not necessary to work within the legal system (you may be a paralegal, police officer, etc.).</p>
<p>Anybody out there have an Engineer’s Degree? I’m working on mine now and supposedly it is considered the “terminal degree for practicing engineers” vice research engineers. It doesn’t sound like many people have them since not many schools offer them, but I figure it was only a few more classes and a beefier thesis so I might as well do it.</p>
<p>I don’t know a ton about them, but your assessment seems pretty valid. They are more common in Europe, I know. Here they are generally considered to be somewhere between an MS and PhD and seem to be geared towards engineers who want to go beyond an MS but don’t want to do research.</p>
<p>Over in Europe, they seem to be the equivalent of a non-thesis, terminal Masters.</p>
<p>I suppose it comes down to what you want to achieve with your education.</p>
<p>I’ve delayed my pursuit of a MD because I’m not that good of a student, and needed to get back into the work force to help support my family.</p>
<p>I could focus on school and go after a master’s degree, but needed to step away from the whole institution to get a better grip on reality.</p>
<p>We should compare starting salaries for BS engineering graduates and MS engineering students fresh out of college, i.e. those with less than 1 year of work experience. The info comes from payscale’s national salary survey. </p>
<p>For employees with less than 1 year experience:</p>
<p>BS Chem: 61,000
MS Chem:62,000</p>
<p>BS Aero: 58,000
MS Aero: 62,000</p>
<p>BS Biomedical: 52,000
MS Biomedical: 56,000</p>
<p>BS Civil: 50,000
MS Civil: 52,000</p>
<p>BS Electrical: 59,000
MS Electrical: 75,000</p>
<p>BS Mechanical: 58,000
MS Mechanical: 60,000</p>
<p>BS Materials: 57,000
MS Materials: 61,000</p>
<p>BS Industrial: 52,000
MS Industrial: 48,000</p>
<p>BS Engineering: 60,000
MS Engineering: 55,000</p>
<p>There’s also the danger of overqualifying yourself for entry-level positions.</p>
<p>I maintain the position that master’s degrees should be used for career advancement and not as entry into the workforce. In the business world it is expected that you have 2-5 years experience before going for your MBA and for good reason. Maybe engineering is different but I have to think the same principle applies.</p>
<p>Would it be better to go for a job or for the masters if you get a Bachelor in Engineering Science? If you have the opportunity the masters would be the smart choice right?</p>
<p>No Inmotion, the same principle really doesn’t apply for engineering. If you want to do engineering research in grad school, you will have to be a full time student so the best time to do it is right after undergrad. Frankly, I am not buying those salary statisctics either. I can tell you that from my experience, MS holders typically get starting offers around 15-20% higher than BS holders. If you look at career services for reputable engineering schools, this is typically the case. </p>
<p>Those statistics don’t make sense. For some of the categories MS salary is lower than BS salary. I can speak for mechanical as that is my area and from my experience that salary for MS holders is not accurate. I have seen 8-12k higher for MS holders.</p>
<p>Another chart by PayScale, limited to Bachelor’s degrees only. Enjoy:</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-Degrees_that_Pay_you_Back-sort.html]WSJ.com[/url”>WSJ.com]WSJ.com[/url</a>]</p>
<p>here are two more salary surveys.
Note that the spread between BS and MS candidates are narrowing. </p>
<p><a href=“http://careercenter.tamu.edu/guides/reports/WhoHiresMyMajor/EngineeringIndex.cfm?[/url]”>http://careercenter.tamu.edu/guides/reports/WhoHiresMyMajor/EngineeringIndex.cfm?</a>
<a href=“http://www.studentaffairs.cmu.edu/career/students_alumni/index.html[/url]”>http://www.studentaffairs.cmu.edu/career/students_alumni/index.html</a> (go to left menu, Students and Alumni, Post graduation Survey Results) (google for the appropiate year. *CMU salary survey 20nn *)</p>
<p>it appears that for these two engineering colleges, that either BS candidates is good enough for the intended employment or that the MS is too much for the job or that there are too many MS candidates. </p>
<p>it also appears that a BS grad with 2-3% raises for 2 years would equal or surpass a average salary of a freshly minted MS grad hire</p>
<p>'Wow, reading through the thread some of you sound completely nuts.</p>
<p>In this economy, you do NOT turn down a good job offer. Period. The end. </p>
<p>While thats true for most recent grads, the OP got a really nice scholarship for his MS as well. Thats also really hard to turn down, as most people have to pay for their MS program. If I got those two offers, I’d easily choose the MS w/scholarship</p>
<p>Longprime, I don’t think 2 salary surveys tell the entire story. Also, the first link seems to have a very small sample size for MS graduates for some categories. I won’t deny that maybe for some people, graduate school is not the best choice. I can only speak for mechanical, but I know many recent MS hires that are getting 8-12k more than BS starting offers. This is what I have seen. I think it also depends on what industry or area you want to get into. I have worked places where, for engineers in design, a MS is more the norm. </p>
<p>I will say it again, a MS can qualify you for jobs that a BS will not. Many design or reseach based positions require or prefer MS or even PhD. Maybe, based on your son’s experience, you view graduate school as a waste of time but I can assure you that I know many graduate degree holders in engineering and they do not share these sentiments at all. Even my own graduate school experience provided me with a significant amount of learning and work experience and many opportunities to network. Graduate school enhanced my technical and research skills significantly. My opinion is that graduate school can be very worth while. It is like anything else, you get out of it what you put in it. In the long run, a MS will be an asset in terms of career advancement and mobility.</p>
<p>^ The true salary comparison should be a MS grad in 2009 vs a BS '07 + 2yrs merit,step,inflation increases.</p>
<h1>57.</h1>
<p>I don’t disagree with your premises and experience. </p>
<p>We are talking about a fine definition and concepts. Getting pretty tired of it. DS is into design , got most of the skills of designing and research as undergrad. He enjoyed MS program very much, a lot of fun, a lot of friends made.</p>
<p>I think, in general, a person benefits more from accepting most job offers than from attending graduate school. In the case of the OP, I would take the graduate school offer simply because of the sweetness of it. Otherwise, I’d go work and get some experience under my sleeve.</p>