Following the disappointing (but expected) results of Ivy Day, I’ve come down to deciding between two schools: Berkeley and Johns Hopkins.
I’m a first gen student so my parents aren’t very knowledgable about the college process as a whole, so I’ve been kind of navigating this process blindly. Both schools offer the same relative amount of aid (JHU would be 8k a year while Cal would be 10k a year), but I feel like travel costs and such for JHU would end up making both schools about the same amount per year. My game plan is to study international relations for undergrad and then move onto international law for grad, so I’ve been debating which school would give me a stronger undergrad education. I realized that JHU has the amazing SAIS program but from the rankings I’ve looked at, Cal appears to rank higher for IR undergrad?
I have a current pro-cons list but I’m not too sure which school is the best fit
Berkeley:
[ul] Liberal, SJW atmosphere that I like + I like the Bay area Has a better international name for itself? * Is closer to home and cheaper to fly back for holidays and such[/ul]
[ul] Its an extremely large school and I doubt I would have the same level of opportunities for internships and individual help as at JHU It’a very close to home (I’d prefer to go to a school far away) * Extremely competitive atmosphere (I fear it would tank my undergrad GPA and make it tough to get into law school)[/ul]
JHU
[ul] Has an amazing SAIS grad program which I assume translates to a strong undergrad program too? 45 min train ride away from DC (internships?) Smaller class sizes mean I could foster closer relationships with professors? Has an open curriculum which will allow me to explore various interests (I have a possible interest in neuropsychology)[/ul]
[ul] My parents feel like it is too far from home Apparently has a weaker ranked IR undergrad program than Berkeley? * I’ve heard that Baltimore is a bad area [/ul]
My parents are pushing me towards Berkeley because it is ranked higher than JHU and they think it has a stronger international name, but I still don’t know which school would offer me the most opportunities to succeed and go into the field of international law eventually. Thanks for your help!
In International Relations, Berkeley and JHU are definitely on par… not sure where you are getting the idea that Berkeley has a superior IR program. As for Baltimore, like any urban area, it has its more challenging parts and its good parts. Ditto for Berkeley/Oakland.
Both schools have superior IR programs. But if you’re going to apply to a top law school (Yale, HLS, Stanford, Berkeley Boalt, Columbia and the rest of the so-called, T-14) afterwards, this is where Berkeley shines.
The data I’ve gathered are saying Berkeley ranks within the top 5 or 8 nationally, almost always consistently, beating JHU, by a mile.
Also, try to visit Baltimore before making your final decision. It’s hard to like the place specially if you’re Californian.
JHU has one of the top IR programs in the country - probably top 10 with SFS, Tufts, and Princeton. (I know that Ivory Tower has it lower ranked but its evaluation doesn’t include undergraduate experience or overall college resources and as a very rich private university JHU beats UCB by a mile. Remember you’ll have 2/3 of your curriculum outside of your major and you’ll be using the university’s resources for everything, so it makes a difference.) Berkeley is a wonderful public university but it’s best enjoyed when you’re a graduate student - the huge lecture halls and lack of personal advising would be detrimental to a first gen/lower income student who needs to rely on the university for advising, recommendations, career advice and preparation, etc.
It also sounds like JHU is cheaper, but do go over what each package includes and doesn’t include.
As for area, clearly you’ll have better weather in California and SF is much better than Baltimore, but for the actual area the universities are located in (Oakland v. Leafy upper middle class area of Baltimore) it’s the reverse.
Woah, hang on a minute there, partner. I grew up in Baltimore and my daughter is currently a senior at UCB. UCB is in Berkeley, not Oakland. Berkeley is similar to Cambridge (I now live and work in Cambridge/Boston), with a lot of Victorian homes, niche stores and boho like atmosphere, really a college town. Your “leafy upper middle class area of Baltimore” is actually inner city with lots of burnt out and run down row houses right adjacent to campus. The main drawback to JHU is its location. Make no mistake about that.
I wonder when was the last time you visited Berkeley. I asked because I noticed how many of the things you said about the school were more of the problems Berkeley students faced in the past.
Recently, I think Berkeley has done strides in improving its services. You still won’t be spoonfed like how JHU does with its students as you described, but you certainly won’t be deprived of those same resources if you seek them. Most Berkeley staff are more than willing to help out the students, including advising and career placement.
Here’s an interesting program offered by JHU. Notice that the last two years of study are in DC:
BA/MA Programs
School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS)
BA/MA Program With SAIS
The five-year BA/MA program with the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies (SAIS) in Washington, D.C., allows select undergraduate students to pursue an intensive program in international studies and also obtain a master’s degree from SAIS.
SAIS is a prominent and respected graduate school of international affairs, with campuses in Washington, D.C.; Bologna, Italy; and Nanjing, China. Today, SAIS alumni are political, business, and organizational leaders in more than 140 countries around the world—including more than 130 graduates who have served as ambassadors for their nations.
The BA/MA program with SAIS includes three years of study at the Homewood campus and two years of study at SAIS. Students may not graduate from SAIS in fewer than four semesters. Furthermore, the BA/MA program is intended to be a consecutive five-year degree program so admitted students cannot defer their enrollment.
Nonsense. Law school admissions is based primarily on GPA and LSAT scores, and the two universities are virtually identical in both measures. If Berkeley “beats JHU by a mile” in sending students to top law schools, it’s because it has 6 times as many law school applicants.
2016
Median GPA: 3.54 Berkeley, 3.52 Hopkins
Average LSAT: 159.73 Berkeley, 161.65 Hopkins
2015
Median GPA: 3.56 Berkeley, 3.49 Hopkins
Average LSAT: 159.50 Berkeley, 160.67 Hopkins
@warblersrule has that exactly right, so many times people quote absolute numbers for how much easier it is to get in from XXXX giant public school, but when its rationalized for size it pales in comparison.
I admit it’s been 3-4 years since I’ve visited and the campus was great - the neighborhood around the campus less so, not exactly bad but with enough unpleasant pockets I didn’t like it as much as I thought I should. Homewood/Charles Village is nice. Lots of townhouses, pleasant streets; shops. It’s not Baltimore as one often thinks about it.
UCB is a great opportunity for California kids - a world class university that sees its mission as part of the common good. They’ve done an amazing job in preserving academics and academic quality at all levels AND access. It’d the #1 public university in the country for a reason. But there have been budget cuts. Tuition hikes haven’t compensated and if you look at the per student expenditure in 2007 and today, or the student faculty ratio today, in 2007, and 1997, you’ll see that the university suffered - it has done a great job reorganizing and raising funds, considering the cuts but we’re comparing with a private university that had no cuts. So, yes the staff are more willing to help, but there just aren’t enough.Freshmen don’t have a personal adviser. Many classes have several hundreds students, up to 700-1,000 in popular majors*. At Jhu, the cds indicates 74% classes have fewer than 20 students and only 4% classes have 100+, v. 10% at UCB- the first class in Global Studies has 165 students (and a 55 student waiting list).
Yikes! I really don’t think you know Berkeley at all @MYOS1634. There is no Homewood/ Charles Village in Berkeley. Maybe you mean Elmwood, which is filled with very nice shops and restaurants, and where million dollar homes would be considered fixer uppers. If all people see of Berkeley is South Campus–the famous Telegraph Ave/People’s Park then they can’t really say they know Berkeley at all. It’s got amazing food, both high end and affordable student variety, lots of movies, theater, music venues, beautiful parks with hiking trails with vistas of the bay and three bridges. It’s not for anyone who wants a neat and tidy suburban atmosphere–it’s urban and in places a little gritty–but it’s lively and fun for young people and it has BART, a twenty minute ride to SF for even more variety and opportunities. Definitely not everyone’s cup of tea, though.
JHU for international affairs for sure due to SAIS. I think the undergraduate experience at JHU iis MUCH better all around than Berkeley. JHU downside is the location. Berkeley is the picture perfect college town. As to law school as admission, it will make no difference per Se. Go where you can do your best work. Berkeley has huge resource issues, housing, oversubscribed classes making it tough to graduate in four years, and a politically off the charts left wing vibe.
And congratulations ! You are lucky to have two superlative choices.
@pog2018: there’s no Homewood in Berkeley indeed: Homewood/Charles Village is where JHU is located. It’s NOT Baltimore inner city as someone was trying to make it sound. Baltimore is not fun (beside the inner harbor) but Homewood feels more suburban.
I was contrasting it to the area around Berkeley which is bohemian and gritty at the same time. Maybe I’d have liked it better if I’d been 25 years younger.
@warblersrule rule is exactly right. I went to law school and am on my LS’s board of advisors. In the old days, the school’s perception of your undergrad institution mattered a lot. Today, it barely registers. GPA/LSAT score. I have a ton of colleagues and lawyers who work with my company who attended directional state schools, hammered it there, and went on to Harvard, Northwestern, Yale and similar LSs.
As between UCB and JH, to the extent the undergrad school ID is factored in even a little, there will be no difference between these two. I don’t guarantee much, but I’ll guarantee that.