<p>I too, have seen the "gate-keeping" mentality in Middle School and even earlier. In elementary school, I repeatedly requested that D be tested to see if she could move up in math and was repeatedly denied (no reason given). By Middle School, she was not given the option to take pre-Alg. in 6th Grade. Last year I heard complaints about students like her who supposedly "chose" to be in Pre Calc as Juniors, instead of being in Calc. ( her average in Pre Calc was over 100% all year). These people did not realize that my child did not "choose" this, it was chosen (wrongly) for her.</p>
<p>FallGirl - sorry to hear that you had the same unfortunate experience we had. We had to fight tooth and nail with teachers and administration to get our D in honors math in MS, we just sent them a gentle reminder that she is one of only two girls in AP BC Calculus this year and doing quite well in it thank you.....had to do the same for D2 this year to put her in Algebra...UGH!!!</p>
<p>Rachacha-I'm sorry about your situation,too. Interesting that this seems to happen with girls - think any gender stereotypes are at work here? In retrospect, I wish I had fought back harder.</p>
<p>You always have to fight. D was not recommended for a single honors class going into High School. I fought tooth and nail for advanced honors math for her because I thought that could not be made up later. Well, despite the school's objections they did finally put her into an advanced honors class in Math, but for nothing else. In the first week of classes in high school, her English teacher asked she be moved to a higher English class. It took a whole semester for science (but still just honors and not advanced) and a whole year for history and French, but by sophomore year she was in all honors classes. She is doing very well in all subjects, but she is cannot take any science APs, in part because she is a year behind the top kids in science due to this crazy gatekeeping policy.</p>
<p>It isn't so much that they (publics) are holding back specific kids (although I don't necessarily disagree with girls stereotyped in math for a host of reasons). It is about maintaining class size and the number of teachers hired to teach AP/Honors subjects. What sometimes annoys me is that the "best" teachers are typically reserved for the highest classes. My son could learn in a paper bag...seriously. If he doesn't get something in class, he can usually figure it out given a book and about an hour. He then can go on to explain it to someone else in a myraid of ways until they get it too. Daughter on the other hand needs that explanation.. sometimes in different ways. A lot of the teachers teaching "regular" classes at our large public school just didnt have the the depth of teaching methodologies to serve these kids that need it most. It is my contention that public schools serve the brightest and the most challenged with the most dollars, while those on the widest point of the bell shaped curve are the most likely to fall through the cracks of a public system. </p>
<p>Suffice it to say, we didn't take the chance twice and put the two younger in private school. We don't vacation much and have far less expendable income than the families that send their kids to the same school (not on aid) AND our neighbors who send their kids to public. But it's still the best investment we've made bar none. It's a lot easier to fight the system when you're paying for it. Personally, I believe this is argument enough for school choice because competition (just not among those who can afford it) will require all to raise their game (and their teaching).</p>
<p>There stories are so foreign to me. Are y'all in public or private schools? There's no gate-keeping at all at our school. You are put in whatever math is indicated by your score on the placement tests. Some kids are accelerated several years. And how you perform in the classroom determines what level of acceleration you stay at.</p>
<p>Our school is ridiculous with gate keeping. Daughter is currently in honors 8th gr math & just brought home her recommendation for high school - dropping out of honors despite having A- average. Makes no sense to me - maybe because she's a girl? I have an email in to teacher now, but her confidence is shaken and she thinks she'll fail honors if I fight to get her in. Also not recommended for honors biology despite A- in science, which means she won't qualify for AP science in high school. This is a child who hopes to go to med school....</p>
<p>Public, by the way.</p>
<p>Youdon'tsay - I think every school handles things in its own way. Our school uses teachers' recommendations and standardized test scores for placement - but it allows for parental overrides. So, if your 8th grader was placed into 8th grade math rather than algebra, the parents are allowed to override that decision and have their child placed in algebra instead. Sometimes it works out, and sometimes it doesn't. Mostly, it doesn't, and the teachers really try to discourage the overrides.</p>
<p>D's school will also allow parent overrides, but will not tell you that. They make you go through a long convoluted appeals process. Then when they finally deny you, all you have to say is "thank you for your input. I believe D belongs in -----. I am hereby formally requesting that she be placed in that class despite your concerns." That's it!!! Do you think anyone is ever informed of this? No. Of course not. We have to stumble through the bureaucracy blindly.</p>
<p>tw1nkle, that was my D's exact situation after 8th grade. Do NOT take no for an answer.</p>
<p>I feel so lucky to be at the school we're at. We have kids in eighth grade in everything from regular eighth-grade math to HS pre-cal. The school allows kids to double up on Geometry and AlgII if they want. Very much a feeling of "we'll do what we need to do the meet the kids' needs."</p>
<p>It took a lot of foot stamping to get my son accellerated an extra year in math in middle school and I regret not insisting on a two year acceleration. They get a kid every year or two that does this and it always turns out fine. I don't know why they are so hard to convince. The only reason there were three my son's year, was that the other kid was coming from a private school and had a mother as pushy as me, and the third kid I met at a party and she was telling my how bored her kid was in math and I told her she should join my son. There was at least one other kid who should have been there, but his Dad was afraid to make waves.</p>
<p>Here in California most kids are identified by teachers or parents as gifted students in elementary school, and once tested they are able to participate in the GATE Program for accelerated learners, and that continues through the 8th grade. Now here is were it gets confusing, for at least the School District my daughter attends. She needed to be tested and recommended in order to participate in the International Baccalaureate Program, if she wanted to pursue either, the IB Diploma or the just the individual IB certificates, thats not the case with AP and Honor classes . The reason I’m bringing this up, when kids are identified early it streamlines the Honors, AP, and IB process for them. With the exception of PE, Health, and Spanish, all of her classes were Honors her freshman year. For what ever reason, the kids who were not identified as gifted, or who participated in accelerated classes in junior high school, would not of had the opportunity of taking Honors classes until the sophomore year. So if a kid can maintain a B average and can get a teacher’s recommendation for what-ever class their freshmen year, they can start taking Honors and AP classes in the second year. My daughter school only offers students the opportunity to take one AP class the sophomore year, but the other classes can be Honors, all of them are on the 5 point grading system.. </p>
<p>The good news to all this is, that once you’re in Honors classes, you’re in, keep your grades up, work hard, and they will have plenty of time to get the AP and Honor classes.</p>
<p>I should add that D had a complication in that she transferred into her public school for 8th grade and was therefore never in the advanced track. Schools have trouble adjusting their procedures for anything out of the ordinary.</p>
<p>Wow you guys make me appreciate my kids' large public HS. No gatekeeping whatsoever -- you can take any AP you want (unless there are prerequisites that you haven't taken). They don't recommend freshmen take AP classes, but I know several that did. I don't know anyone who got bounced from an AP course they wanted to take.</p>
<p>We also have block scheduling, so its easy to double up on math in a year to "catch up" with the advanced students if middle school didn't track a student in the highest classes. As a freshman, my middle S took Geometry in the fall and Algebra II in the spring, so sophomore year he is now taking the same Pre-calc/Calc AB class (they are linked together into a full year 2-semester course) as the kids who were allowed to take Geometry in middle school.</p>
<p>Thank goodness we did not have to live forever with the judgment of a 7th grade math teacher who couldn't see that my son was goofing off in class because he was bored!</p>
<p>I'm a little confused by Trimbo's post. I recently attended an education workshop in CA and one of the things highlighted was that anyone can sign up for AP classes in CA public schools and that were encouraging all kids to do so.</p>
<p>I thought this was pretty bizarre and was designed to move schools up on the Newsweek list, but would not make these better or higher performing schools necessarily.</p>
<p>Anyone can take AP and Honors classes but I'm pretty sure that you need to have at least a B in a class of the same subject, along with your teacher's recommendation. I don't think it would be a good idea to put some poor kid who's pulling down C's in his World History class, then allowing him to take US History AP because his parents want him to excel, I think I am correct but I will double check with the school web site to confirm and copy you the like if so.</p>
<p>The only classes that are not open to most students are my daughters IB classes, that I am 100% sure of. </p>
<p>Hmom5, I will get back to you on the Honors and AP requirements.</p>
<p>I wonder if districts can overrule. I agree it's not necessarily the best idea to let a C student take AP's, but the speaker at the conference I mentioned thought it was and specifically said all students should be encouraged as some might be more stimulated in the higher level courses. And we were definitely told they were open to all, no teacher rec or anything else needed.</p>
<p>Advanced Placement Programs
Incentives for public high schools to provide access to rigorous, college-level courses.
Program Description
The Advanced Placement (AP) Program was established over 40 years ago by the College Board, a national nonprofit organization. AP consists of college-level courses in 21 subject areas.
AP programs provide incentives for public comprehensive high schools in California to provide access to rigorous, college-level courses for interested and prepared students. With such programs, students may pursue college-level work while still in secondary school and receive college credit, advanced academic standing, or both.
AP courses are recognized by virtually all public and private universities. Successful completion of AP courses, and the related tests, can greatly help students in the very competitive process of university admission. </p>
<p>I’m still having problems finding the requirements, for my D’s district, now it’s becoming a quest.</p>
<p>Jaime Escalante's AP Calculus course (see "Stand and Deliver") is the poster child for wanting to have no gatekeeping for AP coursework. Dedicated teacher plus dedicated students equals AP course that succeeds in all kinds of ways. That's a pretty exceptional situation, unfortunately. CA has also had a real issue with lack of accessibility of AP tests in many schools, generally those with a large number of socioeconomically disadvantaged students. There are students who want to take the courses, but they're not offered at the school. </p>
<p>I am waiting for some high school to game the Newsweek ratings by having lots of students take a variety of AP tests, even without taking the coursework. Or even some prankster who'd like to make a point about taking the ratings as holy writ. The current #1 school looks to game the system a bit because senior year is optional. That drives down the number of graduating seniors, which drives up the "total AP tests taken" divided by # in the senior class ratio. Very clever.</p>
<p>Both of my D's schools are on the Newsweek list, though certainly not top 100. D1's school places far higher than D2's school, yet D2's school has a much much better academic reputation. How can this be? D1's school is a magnet located on the campus of a far, far larger non-magnet school. The magnet students take roughly 2/3rds of the AP tests administered at the school. That all gets amortized over the entire student body. Better for the district that a big "regular" high school is on the list at a lower position than to have a tiny magnet way up at the top.</p>
<p>In CA the AP and honor policy is completely up to the school district and the school. In fact the two high schools in our district have different policies. My kids' school has a strict policy, there are prerequisites that you have to achieve certain grade before you can take the next level of AP or honor courses. This is supposed to reduce the stress of the students.</p>
<p>As for the GATE program, the district's policy is that everyone is gifted and everyone is in the GATE program. So there is no need to do anything special for the GATE students.</p>