Just Met A Kid With 3 800's/great Ec's/etc Didnt Get Into H Or Y

<p>
[quote]
Fitzsimmons said that legacies comprise about 12 to 13 percent of recent classes admitted to Harvard College. Their admission rate is between 34 and 35 percent, he said, in contrast to a rate of nine percent for the Class of 2011 as a whole.</p>

<p>According to Fitzsimmons, having a parent who graduated from Harvard or Radcliffe will tip the scale slightly in the admissions process. He added that legacy status is not the only factor explaining their higher success rate in admissions. Children of alumni often recognize the difficulty of gaining admission because of their parents’ familiarity with the University, and thus are “self-selecting,” he said.</p>

<p>“Many might decide based on this knowledge that they might choose not to apply unless they are particularly strong academically,” he said.

[/quote]

<a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=518026%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=518026&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The article also discusses the Princeton study which concluded that legacies with low stats do worse than athletes or URMs who are admitted with similar stats. It is not clear, though, why low stats legacies are admitted, since many many legacies are also rejected. Perhaps these low stats legacies donate more thatn a couple of hundred dollars per year?</p>

<p>Princedog:
You do have your priorities straight! A tragedy like that reminds us about what is important.</p>

<p>I apologize for sounding judgmental and assuming she'd choose Princeton. I get suspicious of trophy-hunting when I see people apply to every Ivy. But I know nothing about her other what was originally posted, and so I shouldn't have made assumptions. (Lucky I didn't have any money riding on my bet!) Obviously, Cornell is a great university and I wish her well there.</p>

<p>I didn't mean to say that legacy in the first category does not count- it certainly is a tip if all else is equal. The higher admission rates for legacies may be due to self-selection (Harvard parents might not encourage their children to apply if they know they would not be competitive) and also may reflect the advantages that a child whose parent(s) went to Harvard may have-emphasis on educaion from early age, special experiences, access to books and computers, parents who read, summer job networking, etc. In addition to nurture, there also is nature. Some portion of intelligence is inherited, and intelligent people generally choose intelligent mates. I also have read that Fitzsimmons has said that the legacy admits have almost identical entering median S.A.T. scores and GPAs as the regular admits. I have heard similar types of statistics at other top colleges and universities. There would have to be very compelling resons to take a legacy with a 1200 SAT score. wjb, the advantage of legacy is real but small (but certainly not what many might imagine) for prospective students in the first category.</p>

<p>She should count her blessings for getting into all the other schools-JEEZ, she got in and is not asking how to pay for it? Give me a break.</p>

<p>You are correct in that my personal experience has been with only my two schools over the last 13 years, but I can tell you that I knew those students VERY well, and I was even asked to write a letter of rec to H for one. And I also know (since we are still in touch) that their grades are NOT stellar at H and Y. I could have predicted that. It had nothing to do with the fact that they were compliant little darlings, because they weren't. They just didn't have the analytical, creative and critical thinking skills that are needed for success at schools like H and Y. That said, I wrote a letter of rec for a student that most teachers despised, (brilliant creative and analytical thinker who looked down on most of his teachers because he felt he was brighter than they were, and in many cases was) but was truly brilliant, and I foretold that he would shine in college with more academic freedom. He was accepted (not at an ivy, not with those grades) and it is exactly like I said. His frosh year he won the writing award at college, and became a research assistant, and works in admissions, as well.) I also wrote the letter of rec to Princeton for a student who I predicted would be val when she was a frosh, and she is going to be a sophomore there next year. So some of us can predict accurately who will or will not be successful, or do we consider just passing to be successful? I don't. Those kids took slots from kids who could really do something at the schools and then afterward. Those other 2 will get through and they will never be heard from again. Lost opportunity for H and Y. And this would not be a great topic of conversation about most other schools, but as long as these schools hold themselves out to be the best, then it is not unreasonable for people to think that only the best should attend.</p>

<p>Brooklynmom- she is taking out loans and working her way through. ( both parents work and are just above the line for free ride status)</p>

<p>There isn't a "line" between "working and taking out loans" versus a "free ride" for paying for college. Cornell and other colleges in its category give grants as aid (full or partial) based on the student's need. It is not an all or nothing thing. Something doesn't add up here.</p>

<p>I don't know about Cornell, but Princeton, to which this student also got accepted gives very generous aid. MotherofTwo is right that it is not an all or nothing situation. Students who get free rides do not have to take out loans, but they do have to work during the academic year and summer. Students whose family income is above the ceiling for full rides get partial aid, again in the form of grants--and have to work also. The family may have decided to take out loans as well.</p>

<p>ejr:</p>

<p>I don't doubt that adcoms make mistakes that has everyone scratching their heads, from the high school teachers and GCs to the college profs. Still, something at the time of reading the folders may have struck the adcoms about the student: perhaps it was an impressive essay (my S did not show his essays to his teachers or GC; I expect many other students don't, either); perhaps it was a supposed fit in terms of ECs or some other characteristic. Who knows? I still do not think that, had the adcom not admitted that particular student, others from the same school would have been admitted unless the school was a feeder school sending multiple students to the college.
I recently got news about a CC poster's student who was not admitted at H or Y some years ago but got into another school that is arguably as good and extremely rigorous. The student got into Phi Beta Kappa in junior year--a very great achievement and honor.</p>

<p>I'm sure, too, that adcoms make some mistakes. I would be hesitant, however, to use a lack of "stellar" grades at H or Y as an indicator of an admissions error. Even if the admissions committee made perfect decisions, a full 50% of the students would end up in the bottom of the class. There are so many factors that contribute to and detract from a student's apparent (i.e. grades) success, including time devoted to extra-curriculars, difficulty of courseload, high school background and preparation, and of course, time management skills. It is very possible to have the requisite analytical, creative and critical thinking skills necessary for success and still come up short on the grades because of those factors.</p>

<p>nceph - Very nicely put!</p>

<p>erj1 - Such arrogance! My H was a mediocre student at a well-respected university. He is now one of the more "successful" graduates in his field (as measured by title and income). Based on your criteria, you certainly would not have predicted his success. I'm left to wonder about the impact of your self-described ability on your own students' confidence. Hopefully, you keep your opinions to yourself.</p>

<p>She works as a waitress at a local restaurant and at the Gap and she is not having her entire education picked up for whatever reason I don't know she sure is smart enough to get a scholarship but they don't do that. Now what doesn't add up? Never heard of such a thing?? Geesh!!!!!!!</p>

<p>Why should a student get into every Ivy or selective school s/he applies to? If that were the case, then HYP etc. would just be accepting the same 2000 kids. I don't see why it should be considered a given that a student accepted to Princeton should have gotten into Yale, or a student who gets into Brown should have gotten into Cornell. They are all, thankfully, different schools with different objectives, and so they don't all accept the same kids. And after all, each kid can only go to one school.</p>

<p>As for how colleges know where you apply -- can they see your school list from the College Board or FAFSA report? Also, sometimes colleges contact guidance counselors. If Princeton is uncertain whether to accept a student, and calls the GC to clarify something, it may come out that the student got into Yale early action. Prep school GC do share college lists with admissions officers (didn't that get discussed in "The Gatekeepers"?).</p>

<p>Did she apply to schools that give merit aid besides the Ivies, which do not? She may be earning more waitressing than she would with work study.</p>

<p>


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<p>As usual, I like your posts and am glad you posted to this thread. There have been lots of interesting posts here since I made my trip out of town. I'd just like to refine the factual statement about how Harvard and Yale treat SAT scores. Both Harvard and Yale, and most other highly selective private universities, consider a student's best scores section by section. (In other words, they "superscore" in the terminology some participants here use.) Harvard expresses its policy in these terms in the Official Register of Harvard University: "You may take tests more than once; we consider only your highest scores." I know that means section by section consideration because I have seen this question asked by a student and answered by a Harvard admission officer at the Exploring College Options information session in my town. Slightly more detail about this point appears in a thread-opening post I made recently to this forum: </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=4198038&postcount=1%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=4198038&postcount=1&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Happy Father's Day to all the dads.</p>

<p>"Lost opportunity for H and Y."</p>

<p>If you're speaking of the student who is shining at the non-Ivy, and the student who is a soph at P, the admissions decisions were not a lost opportunity for the students, though, were they? They lost nothing; they're blossoming at equally fine institutions, it would seem. "The best" (in colleges) is a matter of perception, & a matter of category, as well. </p>

<p>That said, I've said as many have before, that the admissions process at these places can only be imperfect because:
(1) the time frame in which to make these decisions is ridiculously tiny (vs. that of a teacher with a longer, more in-depth view of the student)
(2) the students being chosen among can be deceptively or actually similar
(3) the U's business and/or other policies can modify the factor of potential (proven vs. still-unproven-but-likely)
(4) the U's selection policies (overall diversity, not just racial, ethnic) can eliminate equally qualified students to those accepted, because of similarity on grounds even other than racial/ethnic
(5) the quantity of highly-academically-qualified students overwhelmingly exceeds the number of spots in any freshman class -- including the quantity of those with outstanding intellectual depth, proven over 4 yrs. in high school, etc.</p>

<p>From a numerical standpoint, there is no way that H and Y can accept all of even the most intellectually deep students, even should they eliminate all of their other institutional priorities. They have already acknowledged many "lost opportunities"; they acknowledge that loss every year, and articulate it in the rejection letters and in public statements.</p>

<p>OTOH, from what I've seen (as a teacher myself, and one also with an excellent predictability quotient ;) ), I still believe that the lost opportunities are far outweighed by the gained opportunities and the "right" decisions. I think that every year there is a small percentage of wrong guesses; there would have to be in any subjective process like this. This would be a bigger problem if there weren't so many fine faculty & fine programs & fine students at competing privates & publics. And that is why I don't get exercised about these few "losses."</p>

<p>"They just didn't have the analytical, creative and critical thinking skills that are needed for success at schools like H and Y. I could have predicted that. It had nothing to do with the fact that they were compliant little darlings, because they weren't. They just didn't have the analytical, creative and critical thinking skills that are needed for success at schools like H and Y. "</p>

<p>? Being "successful" at schools like H and Y means getting in and attending those schools. One is even more successful if one graduates from such a school, which the overwhelming majority of students at such schools do: more than 90% graduate within 6 years of entrance. Many of those who don't graduate from another similar school or return to their original school and eventually graduate years later after the entered.</p>

<p>At any college -- H, P, Y included -- some students will graduate in the middle of the class and some in the bottom. Not everyone is going to be summa.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, the students who are in the middle and bottom at a place like HPY may also be doing such extraordinary work in their ECs that they are top picks for jobs in their fields or even for graduate school programs depending on the programs.</p>

<p>As far as I have seen, anyone who graduates from a place like HPY can manage to go to graduate school some place -- typically a tier 2 for those who can't get into a tier one program or don't choose to go to a tier one school (which often happens when students want to return to their home states for grad/professional schools because that's where they plan to make their permanent homes).</p>

<p>When I was at Harvard, I had some friends who were originally premed, but due to the competition there decided not to become doctors. One got her masters in hospital administration from Harvard, and became the administrator at a major hospital in a large city. Another got a MSW. I don't think that anyone would consider such students to be failures.</p>

<p>I would be surprised if Bill Gates had excellent grades at Harvard since he was spending so much time with his computer hobby. And, of course, he dropped out before graduating. Still, I doubt that anyone would consider him a failure at Harvard or elsewhere. He's probably also doing a lot better in many ways than are many people in his class who graduated Phi Beta Kappa. Just one example of how really little importance grades has at a place like Harvard.</p>

<p>One of the people whom I know who probably had mediocre grades when he attended Harvard is a well known sportscaster on a major TV channel. Another became a TV producer and married a well known TV star. </p>

<p>Another wasn't among the masses who graduated with honors from Harvard, but went to med school, graduated near the top of her class in a major medical school, and now is a top administrator at a well respected medical school.</p>

<p>Harvard admissions officers aren't trying to create classes of students that are filled with people who'll end up being Phi Beta Kappa or dying if they don't make that. Harvard wants students who'll create a vibrant, active campus, and after graduation will be leaders in their communities and fields. Certainly there are places at Harvard for the purely intellectual geniuses who'll devote themselves to study, graduate Phi Beta Kappa and become world renowned researches, but there also is even more room for people who'll dive into extracurriculars, pass their classes, and then graduate and eventually make a difference in their communities and fields, most of which will not be research-based fields.</p>

<p>Yale and Harvard and Princeton (and some other Ivy League colleges, and lots of other colleges) accept the Common</a> Application. There may be some confusion here, because the Common Application, of course, has to be routed to all of the colleges for which an applicant fills it out, but it definitely doesn't ask an applicant to list what colleges the applicant is applying to for the colleges to see where else the student is applying. Neither do the Yale Supplement </p>

<p><a href="http://www.yale.edu/admit/freshmen/application/pdf/yale_supplement.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yale.edu/admit/freshmen/application/pdf/yale_supplement.pdf&lt;/a> </p>

<p>or the Harvard Supplement. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/utilities/electronic_resources/download/Rollo0708App_onlinesupplement.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/utilities/electronic_resources/download/Rollo0708App_onlinesupplement.pdf&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Harvard doesn't care where else you apply, nor does Yale, with one possibly relevant exception. Because all the Ivy League colleges honor one another's early action and early decision rules, if an applicant this year submitted a single-choice-early-action (SCEA) application both to Harvard and to Yale, the most likely outcome is that the applicant would be rejected by both colleges, for breaking the clearly stated application rules. If the applicant submitted regular action applications to both colleges, this wouldn't be an issue, and very likely neither college would know for sure that the applicant applied to the other. (There are, of course, always humorous cases like letters of recommendation coming into the Harvard admission office reading, ". . . and this is why I think Jim-Bob would be an outstanding student at Yale" or vice versa.) </p>

<p>On the issue of someone being qualified for Princeton being necessarily qualified for Harvard and Yale, that doesn't follow from published figures about the SAT interquartile range of the entering classes at each college. </p>

<p>Harvard </p>

<p><a href="http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=1251&profileId=6%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=1251&profileId=6&lt;/a> </p>

<p>SAT Critical Reading: 690 - 800 99%
SAT Math: 700 - 790 99%
SAT Writing: 690 - 780 99%
ACT Composite: 31 - 34 18%</p>

<p>Yale </p>

<p><a href="http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=4123&profileId=6%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=4123&profileId=6&lt;/a> </p>

<p>SAT Critical Reading: 700 - 790 96%
SAT Math: 690 - 790 96%
SAT Writing: 690 - 790 96%
ACT Composite: - 21% </p>

<p>Princeton </p>

<p><a href="http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=4221&profileId=6%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://apps.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=4221&profileId=6&lt;/a> </p>

<p>SAT Critical Reading: 680 - 800 98%
SAT Math: 690 - 790 98%
SAT Writing: 680 - 770 98%
ACT Composite: 30 - 34 11% </p>

<p>Princeton reaches a little farther down, in terms of test scores, each year than Harvard or Yale to fill its entering class. That does not at all mean that Princeton is a lousy college--some observers argue it does more for the students it admits than H or Y--but it does mean that an applicant can be qualified for P without being qualified for H or Y. It is not anomalous for someone to be admitted to Princeton and not be admitted to Harvard or Yale. It would be anomalous (and it happens) that students are admitted to Harvard or Yale but not admitted to Princeton.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>I have a local friend who attended Harvard when Bill Gates was there, and who was very annoyed that he took up so much of the time-sharing available for students in the computer lab. Yes, only an idiot would consider Gates a failure, even though he didn't follow the conventional model student path in high school or in college.</p>