<p>I'm late to the thread. But I have to agree with the OP. I do not think our children need to know our financial situation. We set a budget for each child's college (adjusted for the age differences) and that is ALL we will spend out of pocket. They know the amount we will contribute. This we planned and budgeted for since we married. I will fill out the Federal Form so that my son can avail himself of what might be available to him to make up any difference, but I will not share our personal financial information with him. Ironically by my early calculations the amount the Feds expect us to spend is pretty darn close to what we told our son we would spend further strengthening my conviction that there is nothing more he needs to know at this point. If something should happen to my husband and I before my sons are supporting themselves as full blown adults and we are retired and we do share our financial information, our attorney and our financial advisor have all the information and can help the kids....but to share that information with a 17 year old....no way and take my word for it we are truly middle class not "rich", never have been and never will be. This is simply my opinion, I think every family is organized and run differently and I respect opinions to the contrary. Heck, my husband's father died when he was young and my husband knew and lived the family finances before he had beard hair.. my parents finally shared their finances with me when they were in their 70s.</p>
<p>calmom, maybe it is different. Maybe I'm just blessed with a kid that understands more about money because of the way she was raised and the life experiences she's had making her own money. I hadn't thought of it that way. That was genuinely helpful. Thanks.</p>
<p>So that the issue can at least be addressed by the actual language on the Fafsa site, I have found three separate entries . Please make your own interpretation as to: who is certifying what?
<p>By signing the signature page, you also certify that:</p>
<p>You will use federal student aid funds received during the award year covered by this application solely for educational expenses related to attendance during that year at the institution of higher education that determined eligibility for those funds; You are not in default on a Title IV educational loan, or have repaid or made satisfactory arrangements to repay the loan if you are in default; You do not owe an overpayment on a Title IV educational grant, or you have made satisfactory arrangements to repay that overpayment; You will notify your school if you do owe an overpayment or are in default; and You understand that the Secretary of Education has the authority to verify income reported on this application with the Internal Revenue Service and other federal agencies If you purposely give false or misleading information, you may be fined $20,000, sent to prison, or both.
</p>
<p>and another :</p>
<p>
<p>will use federal and/or state student financial aid only to pay the cost of attending an institution of higher education, are not in default on a federal student loan or have made satisfactory arrangements to repay it, do not owe money back on a federal student grant or have made satisfactory arrangements to repay it, will notify your school if you default on a federal student loan and will not receive a Federal Pell Grant for more than one school for the same period of time.</p>
<p>If you are the parent or the student, by signing this application electronically using your Personal Identification Number (PIN) or by signing a signature page and mailing it to us, you agree if asked: </p>
<p>to provide information that will verify the accuracy of your completed form to provide U.S. or state income tax forms that you filed or are required to file. </p>
<p>You also certify that you understand that the Secretary of Education has the authority to verify information reported on your application with the Internal Revenue Service and other federal agencies. </p>
<p>If you sign this application or any document related to the federal student aid programs electronically using a Personal Identification Number (PIN), you certify that you are the person identified by the PIN and have not disclosed that PIN to anyone else. If you purposely give false or misleading information, you may be fined $20,000, sent to prison, or both.
</p>
<p>and finally another warning to the student </p>
<p>
<p>After you submit a FAFSA, you may be asked to provide U.S. income tax returns and/or other information. If you cannot or do not provide these records to the school, you may not receive federal student aid.</p>
<p>If you receive federal student aid based on incorrect information, you will have to pay it back. You may also have to pay fines and fees. If you purposely provide false or misleading information on the FAFSA, you may be fined $20,000, sent to prison, or both.
</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, read the words. In the first section you quoted: This information may include a copy of **your* U.S. or state income tax form*. That means the kid's tax return, not the parent's. I.e., kid must verify accuracy of their own finances.</p>
<p>In the second section you quoted: **If you are the parent* or the student, by signing this application electronically using your Personal Identification Number (PIN) or by signing a signature page and mailing it to us, you agree if asked:</p>
<p>to provide information that will verify the accuracy of your completed form
to provide U.S. or state income tax forms that you filed or are required to file.*</p>
<p>Obviously it is the parent who is required to provide tax returns to verify accuracy of their income. </p>
<p>It is very clear that most of what the student is promising has to do with the issuance of the loan. Lots of promises about how loan proceeds will be used and paid back. I don't think there is any way that a student can be held liable for false or incorrect information outside their personal knowledge -- if the parent puts inaccurate information, how is the kid supposed to know? That's why it refers to "purposely" giving false information.</p>
<p>calmom, I read it pretty well the first time but thanks for the concern. I didn't highlight any portion. I didn't edit. I copied the whole thing each time so that folks didn't have to guess. </p>
<p>I aso found it interesting looking at the website tonight that a parent can't change parent financial data without the kid . Hmmm. </p>
<p>how is the kid supposed to know? Kinda been my point all along, now hasn't it? ;)</p>
<p>If the kid doesn't know because the parent refuses to disclose the information and fills out the form for the kid, then the kid can never be held liable for "purposely" providing inaccurate information. </p>
<p>Given the fact that my math whiz son messed up his 1040EZ last year because he subtracted amounts he was supposed to add, I honestly don't think my kids are anywhere near ready to look over my 1040 and all its attached schedules and make sense of it. In fact, I gave up on the whole thing last year and hired a CPA. </p>
<p>I'm sure that the FAFSA people expect that parents will often take care of entry of their own data -- if not, why does the online form give the option of transferring all the parent data to a second form for a different kid? </p>
<p>The problem is that the system purports to focus on the student, but it is also built on a very erroneous assumption that the parents will pay for the student to attend college at least through age 23. I say that's erroneous because, notwithstanding the practices of parents on this board, I think the kids with the greatest need probably also come from families where the parents are unlikely to contribute that much toward college. So what FAFSA really does is reflect a government policy that parents ought to remain financially responsible for their college-age children. My 22 year old doesn't have the option of writing down the truth: that he lives on his own and that neither parent has given him any money since 2004. So he needs my income & assets -- and I happen to be more comfortable entering it myself than spending time briefing him on my finances.</p>
<p>calmom, this I found the most scary for the kid who is left in the dark :</p>
<p>"If you receive federal student aid based on incorrect information, you will have to pay it back. You may also have to pay fines and fees."</p>
<p>That part doesn't require purposely, or for that matter even knowledge on the part of the student applicant. Just that it was not correct. The student becomes liable. Lots of parents could never help pay that aid back even if their error caused it. And for some low EFC kids we are talking a bundle of cash. That liability alone flowing to the kid ,without consideration of the other negatives, is bad enough. (Your parents lie, we get it back from you because you signed off on it whether you read it or not is how I read it. But that's just one interpretation. )</p>
<p>The next sentence ramps it up for "purposeful" to a criminal act, and I agree with you that few if any prosecutions of a student applicant would result if his parent lied to him and/or filled it out for him and refused to disclose info. Now the parent? I bet that has happened.</p>
<p>I've been noticing several threads that clearly show students are woefully uneducated about filing tax returns (questions such as - when do I get my returns back?). To me, completing tax returns is a "life skill" parents need to be teaching their children - in addition to balancing a checkbook, maintaining financial records, pitfalls of credit cards, how to negotiate a loan, etc.</p>
<p>I, too, don't like the idea of kids knowing how much their parents make or have saved/invested. The numbers seem so big to kids that they think a huge chunk should be available for their college, weddings, cars, etc. </p>
<p>Kids don't take into account retirement needs, emergency savings, monthly living expenses, taxes, etc. All kids see are the big numbers which sound like swiss bank accounts to them. That is why many young adults don't get a real sense of $$$$ until they are fully on their own, paying rent, etc which usually happens when they get their first professional job and pay for everything on their own. "Omigod, who is FICA and why is he taking so much money out of my paycheck????"" LOL</p>
<p>Years ago, (when hubby made much less than now) my husband told our older son how much he made each day. To my child, that sounded like a fortune (it wasn't then and it still isn't now.) Everytime we'd say "no" or "we can't afford that" to some request, our son would say, "but dad makes $$$$ every day." Our son just couldn't get "his head around" the fact that taxes take a chunk and everything else does, too. He'd then insist that we must be saving too much money (we don't - we should save even more!!) </p>
<p>In a kid's mind, living expenses/savings/taxes might take some of the money, but there should stil be a big chunk left over for luxury discretionary spending. At 17, our son still thinks this way. Other kids must think so too since they are such consumers of luxury/recreational items -- nice cars, nicer cell phones, iPods, manicures, pedicures, name brand clothing, etc. (What standard of living are we letting our kids "get used to" and "come to expect"???? Yikes!!!) </p>
<p>There are those who think that their kids are able to handle such financial info. I had a friend who thought so as well. Yet, when her daughter got married, the daughter "knew" that her parents could afford to fork over 50K+ for her wedding. Since the daughter "knew" that my friend could afford it, my friend couldn't say "no" even though my friend knew the marriage wasn't going to last 5 years. It only lasted 8 months!!! Of course now that her daughter wants to marry a guy that is "more stable", my friend feels that she can't afford to give her the wedding for the marriage that will likely last. If she had kept their finances more private, she would have been able to put her financial foot down for the first wedding, and then there would be $$$ for the current wedding (which again, is more likely to succeed).</p>
<p>
[quote]
If she had kept their finances more private, she would have been able to put her financial foot down for the first wedding, and then there would be $$$ for the current wedding
[/quote]
Or if she had a spine, she could have said no the first time. ;) Who are these all-powerful children? LOL. I am soooo glad they don't live near me, and I pretty sure they are glad of that fact ,too. Again, as was mentioned by someone else my kid was raised differently I guess, so whatever works for your family is the right thing and more power to you.</p>
<p>curmy: It's very hard to say no (to weddings, colleges, etc.) when the kid knows that the pocketbook can say yes. </p>
<p>The "jury is still out" in regards to when your daughter wants to get married. It's easy to think that you might be able to say, "no", but when your little girl wants the wedding of her dreams, you may find it harder to keep your checkbook closed if you and she knows that you can afford it.</p>
<p>I know that my "cheap, Italian" dad :) was certain that he could be a "hard a*<em>" about his daughters' weddings (my dad's favorite word is "no"), but in the end, I got the "surf and turf" and my sisters got everything they wanted, too. And when my sister got divorced and engaged, my dad *insisted</em> that he wasn't paying for any second weddings. HA!!!! A few pouty tears from my sis and the checkbook came out.</p>
<p>we dont' think in those terms "wedding of your dreams"- shouldnt that be about the person you are marrying and not some sort of trumpesque fantasy?
My kids know that my H and I paid for our own wedding- and it was very simple because that was what we wanted.
Our parents could have afforded to contribute I suppose- but why?
I didn't get married right out of my mothers house- I had moved out as soon as I turned 17-( when my father died) so perhaps that was what made the difference.
In hindsight, I guess I wish that I might have been able to afford a wedding dress from a boutique, instead of something off the rack, but at the time I didn't care, and it really doesn't matter at this point.
Happiness isn't getting what you want, but wanting what you get.</p>
<p>I built the cabin we live in for less than $50,000. I think I can say with great certainty that the answer would be "no".</p>
<p>Curmy: For the rest of us who live in suburbia and big cities, our kids are more exposed to materialism. We say "no" when we can, but we can't always say no. My kids aren't the first to have anything and they don't get everything. But I can't say no to everything.</p>
<p>My 3 boys have a good idea of our financial situation. We live on a farm, we designed and built our house for $80K, we drive vehicles that are 7 - 15 years old.</p>
<p>We pay for everything they need (clothes, school related activities, school lunch) but they know they need to pay for everything else. They do not receive an allowance. All three work and are good savers. If they need more money, they sell their stuff on ebay.</p>
<p>It does appear that rural kids are more aware of finances than city kids. Perhaps that's because they see the entire process and the exchange of money (i.e. customer gives us $20 and we give him 9 lbs of fish).</p>
<p>My sons know that we can only afford X amount per year for college. If they were to closely examine our financial statements (and understood what they saw), I think they would realize that that is truly all we can afford and hopefully, be grateful.</p>
<p>I realize that our situation is different than for families that live in urban or suburban areas.</p>
<p>I find that living in a mixed economic neighborhood in the city, we are under much less pressure to consume than we were when we lived in a high end neighborhood in the burbs. I think it jsut depend on your area and your attitude. I agree that rural familes I know, are under even less pressure, but since the suburbs have been stretching out, some rural locations unfortunately aren't so rural anymore :(</p>
<p>
Ain't that the truth. I feel like Daniel Boone. I can see the smoke from the nearest neighbor's fireplace. Time to move on. </p>
<p>Until we started talking about this, here and a couple of other threads , I had no concept of how spoiled some kids were in the higher-end world. My daughter wants for nothing. She DOES have a nice vehicle to drive but some of the concepts bantied about here were unknown to me. The idea that an 18 year old would confront a parent with "Well, look here you have all this equity in the house (money in the bank , whatever), you better let me go to Harvard." just amazes me. </p>
<p>A month ago when someone suggested that attitude on the board I laughed at them and asked "Who are these kids with all this power, the Menendez brothers? ". Consumerism is one thing, this sense of entitlement to everything they can name is something totally different and foreign to me. My daughter wanted and got an Ipod for Christmas, but if the answer had been no, she'd have made and spent her own money to buy it. She would never have thought of harassing me for it because she would have known she'd be going backwards with every step. LOL. . </p>
<p>She and I went in a specialty jeans store (D needs loooong jeans) a while back and I knew we were in trouble when there were 3 salesclerks and only 100 pairs of jeans. :eek: The jeans started at $120 dollars sequined and tattered and went way up from there. We saw the price tags, looked at each and busted out laughing. I mean "laughing in church" laughing. "Trying to stifle it but can't stop" laughing. We rolled out of the store and had a wonderful tear-filled, slapping each other on the back, guffaw. </p>
<p>Maybe it changes a kid when she has to realize very young that we can't spend $90 at the vet on a $75 dollar goat and stay upright financially. Or that the horrible drought we are in is everyday eating our meager cash reserves away as I buy hay for $100 a round bale delivered that last year was $35. </p>
<p>But I don't think I knew that this way of being was so different. I think I understand now why my friends view my D as so mature, so adult in her thinking about her plans for her life (wanting to graduate debt free from med school is her probably unattainable goal).</p>
<p>Curmy: I agree that some kids have an unreasonable sense of entitlement. Each XMAS the major mags and talk shows seem to feature stories of low paid parents feeling bad because their kids want things that they can't afford. Many of the stories feature parents who have let their VISA bills skyrocket as they attempt to buy all the "hot items" for Xmas. We have always been a bit strict with Xmas presents because I didn't want' my kids to have the "gimmes". I would let them make a list and I would pick out a few things - but only one "main" gift for each kid -- and if it was a pricey item, such as a GameCube, they had to "share" it as their main gift. </p>
<p>I think that living "amongst other materialists" and TV are a bad influence. Nowadays, even the poor have TVs and those kids see what they <em>think</em> all the other kids are getting and they want it, too. My 78 year old mom, who grew up poor and lived among others that were poor, says that she is glad that there wasn't TV in her day. Ignorance to what many others had was "bliss."</p>
<p>Cur</p>
<p>What I admire about you is your humility. I forget what post it was, but you basically said to the CC community, "I really don't understand why parents wouldn't want their sond/daughter to know about their finances.....help me understand."</p>
<p>Your daughter, and I guess, my sons, really have had a different life education being raised on a farm. I, too, didn't realize how unique it was until other people would watch my kids work (I mean really work, like pouring concrete or netting ponds) without complaint.</p>
<p>My husband and I lived in the bay area for awhile before having kids. It was frantic and just not us. We made a choice to drop everything, move to the central valley and build a fish farm. It wasn't that difficult of a decision as my husband had just returned from the Peace Corps and I am originally from this area. It was the right decision for us. And even though there have been some difficult times, I feel incredibly blessed to be where we are at.</p>
<p>Fresno: I think you are right. Farm kids not only see how it all works but they often have to pitch in, too. City kids often don't even have to clean their own bathrooms (the housekeeper does it or mom). I have friends whose kids don't do ANY chores because they are overscheduled with ec's.</p>