Kid aims high, I aim cheap :)

College Search & Selection
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Hello all, I’ve got one kid off to college and now am working on #2, S23.

His stats are obviously nebulous at this point - ninth grade all As except a B+. (He’s at a fairly rigorous boarding school, but not one of the top ones.) Some theater and chorale ECs. Lotta BLM marching this summer and will volunteer with the Dems this election season.

Sophomore year he’s got an AP class and is doubling up on two math courses.

He thinks he wants to go to law school. He’s very driven. He doesn’t want to be a white-shoe lawyer, though, he seems to be trending toward federal public defender or defense law - something like that. Likely not the high-paying side of law.

I know little about law school but everything I’ve read says spend as little as possible in undergrad, and that the only things that matter are GPA and LSAT, so don’t worry about prestige. This makes sense to me, if indeed he stays the course on law school.

But he also wants to go to Princeton for undergrad. Sigh.

He recognizes that’s a lottery ticket only. So we’re starting to search other undergrad options.

His wants: urban (but he likes some small-town colleges), small/medium size, coasts or Northeast, poli-sci/history/philosophy - usual pre-law majors.

Insights into what he’s seen so far: He toured WVU and hated the big State U atmosphere. Loved his tour of Princeton. He saw a video of Dartmouth and liked that a lot. He’s liked what he’s seen online of Davidson and Dickinson. He didn’t like a video of Arizona State. He wants a selective school and plans to work to have the stats to get there.

My must-have is merit aid, a lot of it. We won’t qualify for much need-based aid at most places; our budget is about $25k a year, not including student loan. I was greatly helped with D19 by schools that had merit charts online, or things of that nature, but he is aiming for more selective schools, and I don’t think they do that, and therefore the information will be hard to get.

Any help in narrowing this down?

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What does the net price calculator for Princeton say?
https://swebapps.princeton.edu/FinAid/finaid_form.pl

But note that most colleges are not as generous with need-based aid as Princeton can be. Be sure to let him know early what the price limit is.

Also, Princeton has a reputation of less grade inflation than some other highly selective colleges like Brown, so wanting to go there seems odd in relation to his law school aims.

Pre-law students can do any major.

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Interestingly, if you search “Top Lawyer Producer Schools – Infographic,” seven Ivies appear, with Princeton as the exception.

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Most highly selective schools don’t offer merit aid (aka the Ivies,) or very little (highly, highly, highly competitive full-tuition or partial tuition merit scholarships whose receipt should be considered as anything but a pleasant surprise,) if any (mainly at Southern T20s: Duke, Rice, Johns Hopkins, and Vanderbilt.) However, all T20s do meet full demonstrated NEED. If your family doesn’t qualify for need, DO NOT APPLY EARLY DECISION, although applying Early Action, which is non-binding, is fine.

If you son becomes a National Merit Scholar (NMS) (focus on the PSAT, and if your son attends a boarding school, I believe that the selection index cut-off is based on the highest score cut-off in the region, not state, that the school is located,) he will receive an automatic half-tuition merit scholarship at the University of Southern California, which is a strong school located in LA. However, admission here is not guaranteed (15% acceptance rate this year.) USC meets full demonstrated need as well.

The University of Florida currently (based on state legislature funding, so this might or might not exist in a few years) offers an automatic full-ride scholarship to all NMS under the state-funded Benacquisto Scholarship Program. UF has an extremely strong Honors program, although this is far from a guarantee (13% acceptance rate this year.) The University of Central Florida in Orlando, however, also offers a full-ride via the Benacquisto AND auto-accepts any National Merit Semi-Finalist.

Boston University offers all NMS a 20K scholarship if admitted, although the deadlines are earlier than the final NM deadline. Similar deal for Northeastern University and for the University of Rochester, though all of these schools would be low match/high reach for a high-stats applicant due to the acceptance rate and the impact of demonstrated interest at some of these schools.

Some LACs that are generous with merit aid in the Northeast are Juniata and Allegheny College in Pennsylvania. They are both in small towns.

Unfortunately, the majority of schools that offer MAJOR merit scholarships are in the Southern US, AND are large state schools. If your son would be fine with any Southern States (Texas, Louisiana, Alabama etc,) I can recommend some schools (both private and public, and a few LACs,) that are generous with merit scholarships.

Your state school is your best chance, before financial aid/merit scholarships, at a Cost of Attendance below 25-30K. If you son is certain he wants to go out of state, look online for your region’s tuition exchange, which makes it cheaper to go OOS at regional universities (although these are usually not the state flagships, or are satellite campuses of the state flagship.)

Hope that helps! Good luck with admissions!

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@Gatormama Things may change between now and then. But basically, you’re looking for full tuition merit scholarships if you want to come in at or under budget. He seems not to like big publics, although this too could change. Some private schools where full tuition merit scholarships are possible (but extremely competitive) include Davidson, Lafayette, Lehigh (?), U of Richmond, Duke, Wash U St Louis and Vanderbilt.

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Some Midwest colleges also have full-tuition merit scholarships, as does Trinity University in San Antonio. Among the NESCAC schools, Connecticut College and Trinity College both offer merit, although I am not sure how high those scholarships go.

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Since your kid is still a rising sophomore, in your shoes I would keep college searches at the very general level (large public, urban, etc). “Dream schools” are not a good thing, IMO.

I would, however, subtly or not so subtly, nudge your kid towards cheaper options. Of course, if your kid is anything like mine, the nudging needs to be in the opposite direction - we just needed to state our preference for anything, and that came off the list…

Good luck on your second round!

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Be clear about your budget. Run NPCs. Generally speaking the more competitive the school, the less merit they give out. Better your student know the parameters now so they can broaden the search and not be focused on somewhere unaffordable.

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You likely know the drill As a very general rule, more selective a school, the more difficult to get merit money. When you get to the HPYSMC, et al, and all of the Ivy League, the little Ivies, no merit. The most selective schools that offer merit scholarships include Duke, Chicago, Hopkins, Wash U , Rice , Vanderbilt, Emory, USC, . Getting that merit money requires being one of the most desired ones in the applicant pool where hardly anyone is a shoo in.

Is your son on scholarship at this boarding school? What attributes have made him attractive enough for the school to give him an award? How knowledgeable and proactive is the college guidance department in looking for college merit opportunities? Even some of the top boarding schools have been horrid in that respect, IMO. Some have hired outside services, because they recognize their lacking in that area.

I would look at Davidson College, Washington and Lee, Richmond, Lafayette as top LACs that give out sizeable merit awards, for starters and as high reaches that may be good fits. I’d look at Catholic schools like Fordham, Villanova, Holy Cross, Fairfield that also have merit money. Brandeis and Tulane are another good source . Check out Temple, Pitt, Delaware, South Caroline.

Schools like BC and USC have half tuition awards as their top scholarship which still leaves you with short of the under $35k mark.

A big question here is whether you are going to relent and stretch the financial parameters for a Princeton accept. If the NPC for Princeton is saying $50k, and you know that they do not give merit money as they do not, are you going to relent and borrow to make it up, or have a stash that you’ll raid? I have several friends still making loan payments from back 20 years ago when they co-signed loans it took PLUS for their kids to go to their dream schools. In some of the situations, it’s quite the hardship, as they are single parents whose financial situations blew up unexpectedly. Though most of the kids are doing reasonably well, it seems like they always need money for this or that , which they can barely afford so they have not gotten down to helping old mom pay those student loans. This is real life here. And, I know these people. Most anyone who knows them would say, great kids.

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I’d also point out law schools care about grades and LSAT score; As count, undergrad prestige not so much. And people don’t care where you went to undergrad just where you went to law school.

Also if recheck Tulane if Tulane is still giving merit…read a while back they’re moving to need based aid. May still be giving merit but less than before.

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Our budget for each kid is slightly above that and we didn’t qualify for much need based aid either.

Schools that comfortably came in at that ball park with auto merit:
Alabama (has great Blount Liberal Arts residential program that might be of interest)
Ole Miss (super honors college, Croft Institute for interntl studies also well regarded)
Arizona
Miami OH

Schools that did not offer auto merit but which were in that ball park after acceptance:
In state flagship (instate rates and small merit amount)
South Carolina (competitive merit)
Maine (in state tuition matching)

Schools that were about $35k after merit
Denison, Wooster, Susquehanna, Ursinus, Juniata,

D also applied to Boston College as dad went there, but needed one of the 15 full tuition merit scholarships to attend. Was accepted but did not get the award.

She also applied to Princeton as this was the most favorable NPC result for need based aid - but was rejected so we’ll never know!

@KevinFromOC 's D needed merit for net costs to be about $25k and her most affordable outcomes were Miami OH, Rose Hulman (engineering), and South Carolina. She is attending SC on a prestigious scholarship. She was accepted to Princeton but they were not affordable.

My second D now a HS senior is a different type of person with a TON of community service and wants to do Americorps or City Year in her gap year. She will be applying to the competitive merit scholarships that emphasize this, such as at Vandy, BC, Morehead Cain at UNC etc. Plus the schools her sister applied to above.

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Thanks everyone, some good schools in these replies. Trinity and ConnColl went on the list last night after I stumbled across a thread where they were mentioned. They seem like quite good options.

I haven’t run the NPC for Princeton; don’t see the point at this time. We have one salary and one self-employed income, and the latter has been nonexistent this year and is irregular at best and impossible to gauge from year to year. I could do high and low estimates; maybe I’ll do that.

<<Also, Princeton has a reputation of less grade inflation than some other highly selective colleges like Brown, so wanting to go there seems odd in relation to his law school aims. Pre-law students can do any major.


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Yeah, I don’t think he’s quite internalized the “get the best GPA possible, the school doesn’t matter” part of undergrad-to-law school yet. It’ll come, I hope. I just mentioned those majors b/c they align best with his likes right now.

<< If your family doesn’t qualify for need, DO NOT APPLY EARLY DECISION, although applying Early Action, which is non-binding, is fine.>>
I’m aware, thanks. I did a crushing amount of research on D19.

<<if you=“” son=“” becomes=“” a=“” national=“” merit=“” scholar=“” (nms)=“” (focus=“” on=“” the=“” psat,=“” and=“” if=“” your=“” attends=“” boarding=“” school,=“” i=“” believe=“” that=“” selection=“” index=“” cut-off=“” is=“” based=“” highest=“” score=“” in=“” region,=“” not=“” state,=“” school=“” located,)=“” he=“” will=“” receive=“” an=“” automatic=“” half-tuition=“” scholarship=“” at=“” university=“” of=“” southern=“” california,=“” which=“” strong=“” located=“” la.=“” however,=“” admission=“” here=“” guaranteed=“” (15%=“” acceptance=“” rate=“” this=“” year.)=“” usc=“” meets=“” full=“” demonstrated=“” need=“” as=“” well.=“”>>
Very interesting info; thanks. Also tx for info on the other schools you mentioned, @PikachuRocks15
(I went to UF and would love for him to go there, but they wouldn’t accept me today & have become basically a public Ivy.)

Juniata, Susquehanna, Ursinus - all decent options. He does like Dickinson’s “look.” But I wasn’t impressed with Allegheny’s financial stability three years ago; not sure things are better today.

<<unfortunately, the=“” majority=“” of=“” schools=“” that=“” offer=“” major=“” merit=“” scholarships=“” are=“” in=“” southern=“” us,=“” and=“” large=“” state=“” schools.=“” if=“” your=“” son=“” would=“” be=“” fine=“” with=“” any=“” states=“” (texas,=“” louisiana,=“” alabama=“” etc,)=“” i=“” can=“” recommend=“” some=“” (both=“” private=“” public,=“” a=“” few=“” lacs,)=“” generous=“” scholarships.=“”>></unfortunately,>

Smaller LACs in urban areas of Texas would be an option, @PikachuRocks15, if you can think of any like that? He likes the state.

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Nope, we are in PA, where the state school is $37k a year with next to no merit, and PA is not part of any tuition exchange. This also makes the programs like Maine’s (?) unworkable, the ones where they offer to match your in-state flagship’s tuition…

<<is your=“” son=“” on=“” scholarship=“” at=“” this=“” boarding=“” school?=“” what=“” attributes=“” have=“” made=“” him=“” attractive=“” enough=“” for=“” the=“” school=“” to=“” give=“” an=“” award?=“” how=“” knowledgeable=“” and=“” proactive=“” is=“” college=“” guidance=“” department=“” in=“” looking=“” merit=“” opportunities?.=“”>>

He indeed is on a half-tuition scholarship (the school offers merit based on prior transcript and an annual test). I am not sure of the college guidance department’s chops yet; I’ll be better able to assess by the end of this year.
I’m not expecting much help after going through this with D19. I found that her college counselors were not up on the merit/financial aid landscape. They match kids with schools academically; they don’t know the financial situations of most of the kids they’re dealing with, as a general rule.

<<a big=“” question=“” here=“” is=“” whether=“” you=“” are=“” going=“” to=“” relent=“” and=“” stretch=“” the=“” financial=“” parameters=“” for=“” a=“” princeton=“” accept.=“” if=“” npc=“” saying=“” $50k,=“” know=“” that=“” they=“” do=“” not=“” give=“” merit=“” money=“” as=“” not,=“” borrow=“” make=“” it=“” up,=“” or=“” have=“” stash=“” you’ll=“” raid?=“”>>
Yeah, not gonna happen. We are less than 10 years from retirement and will not be drawing down on some massive investment, just SS and a small pension/401k. And we still have 10 years left on the mortgage.
He understands; he’s not happy about it, but we’ve been straight with both kids. Both kids went to/attend privates where they were/are getting financial aid and were/are among the “poor” kids in the school (isn’t that ironic, that we won’t qualify for need-based aid at most places, but we’re considered “poor” in the private school world?) – they learned the “life-isn’t-fair” lesson early on, watching their classmates get whatever they wanted, and apply wherever they wanted, not caring or even knowing about the CoA.<a big=“” question=“” here=“” is=“” whether=“” you=“” are=“” going=“” to=“” relent=“” and=“” stretch=“” the=“” financial=“” parameters=“” for=“” a=“” princeton=“” accept.=“” if=“” npc=“” saying=“” $50k,=“” know=“” that=“” they=“” do=“” not=“” give=“” merit=“” money=“” as=“” not,=“” borrow=“” make=“” it=“” up,=“” or=“” have=“” stash=“” you’ll=“” raid?=“”>

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Raffi Melkonian (@RMFifthCircuit) an appellate attorney on the Fifth Circuit, just ran a series of posts for college students considering law school. He posted:

The rest of the comments all agreed that 1) little / no debt is key and 2) study where you want to live.

I know that is about choosing a law school, not an UG school- but I think that it’s relevant.

Have you thought about offering a deal along the lines of "Honors college at State U costs X, and we can cover that. Our max, no-debt, budget is Y. If you choose a school with a net cost of X or less, we will put the difference of Y-X into a savings account for college.

especially if he doesn’t want to do BigLaw, not having debt coming out of law school will give him more choices.

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@Gatormama Conn Coll and Trinity CT might offer merit - but I am not sure they will offer enough to get to $25k per year. Dickinson’s top merit award is about $30k I believe.

If $25k is your budget, you are going to have to go down in tiers and also look to the automatic awards, which are mainly from southern / mid west / western state schools.

In addition to the places I mentioned above, you can also look at:
New Mexico
Utah (can qualify for in state rates after year one I think)
Wyoming
Montana/ Montana St
(latter three are very well priced and will also offer merit)

Smaller schools in urban areas of TX:
Trinity TX
Southwestern
Austin College
St Edwards

Check endowment/ financial status esp of last two.

If you are in PA, how does West Chester look? I hear decent things about it? Or 2 years at CC, then 2 years at Penn State, Temple or Pittsburgh?

D says her southern school’s student government and greek life is where future connections are made, and is chock full of pre law. I can absolutely see the advantage of ‘study where you want to practice’.

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What sort of college does D19 attend? What sort of financial aid and merit opportunities did she get? Will you have two in college at same time for a year or two?

That you are paying half tuition at a private boarding school along with full room, board, transportation and other such costs, is money coming out of what could be funding college. My friend who has a child at such a boarding school (not the top group) reports a sticker price of $64k (doesn’t include personal expenses) with $40k being tuition. A half tuition award still comes to a whopping $44k to be paid directly to the school. You can add an additional $20k to the costs for the most expensive colleges in 2021.

Many CSS Profile colleges add Schedule C expenses and depreciation back into income. They also tend assess the market value of the business based on that income. Some Profile schools also ask for two years of income information. But they do tend to vary on how they assess these numbers. Princeton does tend to be more generous than most schools.

Pitt has a great honors college, and they do give out merit money. Penn State has been giving out $4-6k merit awards to Students they most desire. Temple has even more generous packages. Gettysburg, a private school, has merit money too. Florida State, by the way, gives instate tuition for those students who go through a first year abroad program at a stated cost, still way lower than private college. I know two Ivy League law students who went there on merit scholarships and in state rates ( they were not Floridians) Rollins and Eckerd are Strom LAcs there with money. Also look at UMiami for merit. As well as much closer Miami of Ohio that gives very good merit awards . Our highschool grads snagged some nice merit from UTampa, U Denver, too. Catholic colleges also a good source, other than ND and GTU—BC top award half tuition. But check out Gonzaga, Fordham, Villanova , Holy Cross and the numerous lesser known schools.

It’s early to see what the breadth of merit possibilities for him are. Start collecting info on schools that do have large enough awards that make it a possibility to afford the school. Your son and you will need to stay on top of this info because things are changing so rapidly and uniquely these days. No idea what the college scene will be like in 2023. I have a niece who will be graduating high school in 2022, and it’s a turmoil out there.

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Agree with CPT’s suggestion of Pitt. It has a MUCH higher reputation outside of Pennsylvania than in.

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Running high and low NPC estimate for any college that you run the NPC for would be a good idea in your situation. Also, some colleges that use CSS Profile in addition to FAFSA add back business deductions, so you may want also to run an estimate with self-employed revenue rather than income.

Unfortunately, Pennsylvania is one of the worst states for college affordability and student loan debt of graduates for in-state residents. However, there may be more merit at the other CSHE schools, and the PASSHE schools are somewhat less expensive.

An environment populated mostly by the scions of wealth may be adding social pressure to aim toward expensive colleges rather than more affordable options.

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OP is looking at $25k out of parental pocket . Student might be able to work, May have some college savings (I’d have him reimburse you in expenses and have YOU hold that money for financial aid application purposes) , and can take out a Direct Loan Of $5500 to go towards list prices. Parents can pay some personal expenses, gift books and supplies,maybe, and kid can work part time for extra money so, I think PItt full sticker price of $35K is attainable, for first year and can be reduced in future years because of available cheap housing off campus, and by not using a meal plan. Most of the kids I know who went to Pitt, were able to live cheaply and find part time work easily.

We paid out of state tuition for one of ours there and he lived high on the room/board allowance we gave him, (school COA Numbers) as he worked yearlong and summers. He left school with money in the bank, a nice nest egg. He cover all of his non tuition, fees, room/rent, board expenses out of own pocket.

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This resource can be especially convenient for estimating costs at participating schools: https://myintuition.org/.

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@Gatormama Some LACs in Texas that offer merit are:

  1. Trinity University in San Antonio: Generous with partial-tuition merit scholarships (based on GPA & test scores see: https://stage.trinity.edu/admissions-aid/financial-aid/academic-merit-scholarships-first-year-students-trinity ,) and offers VERY few full-tuition merit scholarships. No application fee, can self-report scores, and IIRC no essays!
  2. Southwestern University in Georgetown: 25 miles from Austin, and generous with partial tuition merit scholarships. Does not offer any full-tuition scholarships, but does offer a competitive merit scholarship a bit higher than the general Admissions scholarships. No application fee, can self-report scores if you email your Admissions Officer with a copy of your score reports, and IIRC no essays!
  3. UT Dallas: Not a LAC, but generous with merit scholarships, has a competitive full-ride scholarship, and offers virtually a full-ride to NMS.

Not a LAC nor in Texas, but schools to consider that offer merit:

  1. Tulane in New Orleans: Generous with partial tuition merit scholarships and has quite a few full-tuition merit scholarships (through the Paul Tulane award, Stamps program, and the Deans Honors Scholarship,) as well as a community-service fellowship scholarship that will stack with Admissions' scholarships. Apply EA here and interview with an alum if possible as the school is focused on demonstrated interest, and yield protects high-stats applicants (deferral or wait list.)
  2. CWRU in Cleveland: Similar situation as Tulane, albeit with a much more noticeable lack of full-tuition scholarships. School is very pre-professional heavy, especially with pre-med/dental students. Apply EA here if not applying to the school's pre-professional scholars programs, as the school is focused on demonstrated interest and is famous for yield protecting high-stats applicants (primarily wait list.)

Hope that helps!