LA Times op...'I DON'T SUPPORT our troops'

<p>Been enjoying this discussion (Really more of an exchange of volleys than a discussion).</p>

<p>Dont care to get into it much except to offer the following observation/comments in hopes of enhancing the value of future exchanges.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Looking at the past/present and criticizing the actions/decisions of our leaders/governmental employees has been a part of the American way since its origin (Also appears to be popular in Japan). I encourage everyone to continue to exercise this right. (Wonder why my " / " key is overheating?)</p></li>
<li><p>Ideally this criticism will be productive and lead to some proposed corrections, changes, new ideas, or something. I find criticism in isolation is of limited value. When done by someone other than myself, it can take on a self-righteous and sometimes whining tone after awhile.</p></li>
<li><p>To expedite the productive aspects of the critical process, I encourage everyone from now on to balance their criticism with a suggested correction, change, idea, or something. That is, a solution to the criticism they espouse. To illustrate: I believe people who litter are self-centered, inconsiderate individuals that will never change and should be eliminated from society by public execution or, at a minimum, permanent confinement. There, I given a criticism and offered a solution. See the pattern? Criticism, Solution.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>A warning. I've found that the first part, the criticism, is usually much easier than the solution part. My lazy mind will tend to short-circuit the criticism/solution process and only perform the first part. I know, I've done it countless times. Just ask my wife.</p>

<p>Also, the time spent on the criticism usually is much longer and involved than the time spent on the solution. If you're not careful, the solution will be overly simplistic, unrealistic or the cause of multiple future criticisms by others (see above example). I've learned that a poorly thought out solution can undermine the credibility of my criticism and alert people to the fact that I'm not as all-knowing as my criticism contended. That's why I often choose not to offer a solution.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>If you can't, or won't, offer solutions (reasonable or otherwise) to your criticisms, please indicate this status prior to making your criticism so that I, and other readers, can decide whether we care to invest time in reading what I will call a "I've got a problem, so what are you going to do about it?" criticism.</p></li>
<li><p>Finally, make sure to take all opposing points of view as a personal affront to your faith, nation, family or, at a minimum, your personal self-worth. That way you will be better motivated to invest the time and thought necessary to draft an adequate response. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Please, carry-on.</p>

<p>UCLAri - In your quest for objective analysis (and avoidance of conviction), you fail to acknowledge the fundamental fact that we all see things through our own prism of life experiences (admit it or not, you do too). We humans tend to perceive what we expect to perceive (expectancy theory?). If you read your posts carefully you may even see your own preconceptions emerging.</p>

<p>ASPEN - I'm sorry to say this... but your a bit high on that pedestal there aren't you? I enjoy all comments though some more than others. I don't like restrictions to comments - other than abusive lauguage. You will have a full time job monotoring speech. Let them all post and I'll screen out what I don't like or disagree with. My solution is the free forum still exist, but hopefully with forethought. There is so much to take in here from a myriad of ideas. Let's hear/read them all.
I'll be honored to meet any parent/cadet in the future somewhat based on what I read here. My son, hopefully, will be going to WP this year, let's all share their excitement and concerns with admissions.
I don't want to restrict any comments - but I'll forget those ideas contrary to mine; that's tipical. Keep up the comments, I'll listen.</p>

<p>Rockymnt - Aspen's sense of humor may be an acquired taste. I for one enjoy it.</p>

<p>Whoa!!!!!!! Need to check in more often!</p>

<p>See my 1st post .."can of worms"</p>

<p>Ann, why did I decide to post Stein's op/ed? </p>

<p>As Spidermom posted in # 27 "The anti-military bias some people hold is going to affect our kids so it is a worthy topic for debate in my mind"</p>

<p>...to share with other parents of young, smart, brave, courageous cadets and mids of various academies and ROTC programs, the opinion of Joel Stein of the LA Times. Moreover, contrary to another post here regarding Stein's piece, I suspect that his point-of view is held by more than a few. Having surfed the web in recent months I was astonished to note the vitriolic posts on some hard-left sites regarding our military. Stein, however made his opinion public via the main stream press. KP2001 said it best, noting Stein's honesty (post #6). Furthermore, as a parent of a young man who may one day risk his life in services to this country, I think it is important that we see that there are people who do not find our children's quest very noble. Clearly, that they neither care for the troops, nor understand that the words they print or say are demoralizing to the military (especially those in harms way) and undermine our efforts in this war on terror are disturbing at the very least.</p>

<p>In addition to one's life experiences, I suggest that one's opinions regarding this war is influenced to a great degree by the main stream media,their formula appears to be...emphasize the enemy's victories and our losses. Viola' you then have public outrage and shouting that President Bush "lied" ( by the way, I prefer to call him President Bush, not mr. bush). The media's bias has now been documented in a study done at UCLA (see .Media Bias Is Real, Finds UCLA Political Scientist ..
<a href="http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6664%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6664&lt;/a> )</p>

<p>Also see "The good news from Iraq is not fit to print" <a href="http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/11/02/the_good_news_from_iraq_is_not_fit_to_print/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/11/02/the_good_news_from_iraq_is_not_fit_to_print/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Regarding the war in Iraq...one can easily do a fact check on who said what and when concerning WMD ...titled "Words of Mass Destruction" (warning: pretty lengthy) <a href="http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>When I think of the history of terrorist attacks, I am reminded of Edmund Burke's remark, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." :
Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;
Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;
Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;
Achille Lauro 10/7/85 (Abu Abbas, the hijackers' leader,was captured in Iraq in 2003)
TWA 847 in 1985, killing U. S. Navy diver Robbie Stetham
Kidnapped CIA Officer William Buckley, 1985, and tortured to death.
Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;
Kidnapping & subsequent hanging of U.S. Marine Col. William R. Higgins in 1988;
First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;
Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;
Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;
Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;
Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;
New York World Trade Center 2001;
Pentagon 2001.</p>

<p>Finally, no need for me to reiterate every post here, still Weski's post #28, Bz post #29, and Jamzmom #31 all said it well about our kids.The fact that every member of today's military has freely chosen that course and accepts the tremendous sacrifice to protect and defend us is worthy of admiration and great praise.</p>

<p>And thanks LFWB for the civics lesson :)</p>

<p>"For the record, I don't have many strong convictions." UCLAri, that might be something you should try to seek instead of being afraid of them. Of course, you must constantly investigate and challenge but to do this without strong convictions is a rather empty existence. UCLAri, part of being in college should involve getting the tools to be able to decide on your core convictions in life. I really don't mean to be rude but arguing without conviction is kind of a waste of your energy.</p>

<p>Well, I guess UCLA won't be shopping here next Xmas:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.cafepress.com/rightthings%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cafepress.com/rightthings&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Gotta get one of those France terror alert mugs :)</p>

<p>Prayerful mom - Yes, I did say that I did not understand your intent behind posting this article. If it was to stir rational debate on antimilitary bias as Spidermom suggested, then why post an inflammatory article and then add a no freedom of speech/press lecture disclaimer? If you just wanted to share your outrage and get support from likeminded parents of cadet/candidates, then that is fine, but rational objective rebuttals that UCLAri was demanding are unlikely to ensue. If it was just to open a can of worms - I guess you succeeded :).</p>

<p>"In addition to one's life experiences, I suggest that one's opinions regarding this war is influenced to a great degree by the main stream media" </p>

<p>This may be true, but I would still argue that one's inherent beliefs are what allow us to either accept or reject information that is presented to us in the media. We tend to choose to accept that which reinforces our inherent belief, and reject that which runs contrary to it.</p>

<p>Spidermom, you are tooo funny. Thats what we needed was a laugh. You know.... I guess I just miss having a kid to argue with. Does it show? I really really miss it. And now look what happened! </p>

<p>I cannot decide who is our best orator here. Bill or Aspen. I'm letting them speak on my behalf from here on out! LOL
Aspen, I think the debate went stagnant then I did too. Think I'm done. Besides my short attention span just went to these wasabi cashews.....</p>

<p>You mean there is some question in your mind? I am almost offended; I know that Aspen, deep down, is really your favorite. It hurts when you compliment him on his humor and ignore me. I have learned to live with it nonetheless. . .
See how much you have rubbed off on me! Now I am posting mere nothings. Stop! Back to work! More billable hours I say.</p>

<p>"More billable hours I say"</p>

<p>I say we need a law system that uses insurance like the healthcare system does. Maybe if lawyers had to work for LMO's (Law Maintenance Organizations) we could get some reform done, haha.</p>

<p>Speaking of that bill, may I ask what type of law you practice? I hope it's not medical malpractice, haha. You may get me for not knowing what I'm doing in practice for spending too much time on this site.</p>

<p>Bill0510: Drat. I've lost my nickle bet with Jamzmom. </p>

<p>You've fallen into Jamzmom's trap just like she said you would. She said you were the jealous type and would "take the bait" if she complimented my postings. I told her you were above petty jealousy and could handle the competition.</p>

<p>Life Lesson # 409 : Never bet against Jamzmom.</p>

<p>It shows, JM. You were gettin' feisty! You were correct, too.</p>

<p>Now, Now. ya'll stop makin' fun of me... Bill is the one who rubbed off here. Didn't you SEE how grouchy I was!? Just like Bill! I'm checking for green grinch hair on my back this very moment. And Aspen you cheat, it was 10 bucks & I'll never tell you anything ever again. Man, what a tattle-tale. Let me tell ya'll, my husband is indeed a lucky man. I can only get mad & stay that way for about a day then it wears off. Whew! good thing too cause I'm worn out. Just the mere inkling of a suggestion that someone doesn't respect kids who serve makes me go NUTS. Speaking of nuts...</p>

<p>Life Lesson #410 - Never rub your eye after eating wasabi cashews. Trust me.</p>

<p>Ann...the note concerning freedom of speech was in reference to a litany of posts here ... <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=137152%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=137152&lt;/a> ... directed at those involved in posting there .... I believe understood my point. </p>

<p>If you care to scroll back up this page and reread my last post, I believe that I clearly answered your question as to why I posted...starting with "...to share with other parents of young, smart, brave, courageous cadets and mids of various academies ...." etc.</p>

<p>Your characterization of UCLA's post as "rationale and objective" leads one to infer that the others who posted here were not. Words such as "mob mentality" and "idiots" does not garner much respect for objectivity. Yes, Ucla has an opinion; but..anymore valuable than others here?</p>

<p>No doubt, every parent of every student at one of the Federal Academies has given more time and thought to all of these issues than they seem to be given credit for</p>

<p>Spidermom...funny site...thanks:)</p>

<p>Oops...computer froze again...</p>

<p>I just wanted to add that ucla gives the parents way too much credit as pertains to their child's choice of a military school and possible career. At the risk of seeming presumptious, I believe that most of these bright young men and women have set their own goals, did their own work, and received appointments and/or scholarships that they yearned for, not necessarily their parents choice. And sometimes despite their parents objections.</p>

<p>I never even entertained the idea of a military school, it was my son who pursued this course and did the research.</p>

<p>As for me, I woul have preferred that my son become an actuary, make lots of money and support me in my dotage:) ..or maybe a plastic surgeon!
Nontheless, I am still very proud of his decision.</p>

<p>Hmm... so this is what it feels like to be the only conservative at a university. Interesting.</p>

<p>Anyway, Oregon Mom, you said, "UCLAri, part of being in college..." Sorry, but I graduated almost a year ago. It's a bit late. :p</p>

<p>Guys, you were fantastic, and it's been great, but the personal jabs into my life were a bit creepy and left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I guess I'm just too young and communist to understand how bringing my personal life into the conversation was necessary. (Yes, that was sarcasm.) </p>

<p>I'd rather just leave this thread on the high note of knowing that you guys are in fact critically considering why you hold certain beliefs. Too bad most conservative/liberal college students don't.</p>

<p>By the way, I do apologize for the silly ad hominem directed toward the Pentagon. Bad form.</p>

<p>prayerful mom: Hmmm...If you reread my posts you would see that my point was not that UCLAri's argument was rational and objective, my comment was that his expectation of such a debate was unrealistic given the inflammatory nature of the article.
I am proud of your son too - just as I am of my son who accepted his appointment to USMA last week :).</p>

<p>WAIT! I like ya! No need to run out. Ok listen. Here's what I suggest. Why don't you post a debate topic. Example: Something like why did the Pentagon spend $900.00 on a hammer? kind of thing instead of something like, why did the Pentagon waste $900.00 now your children are going to die. See what I mean? Thats kinda how most of us took some of the things you'd said. Come up with a GOOD point of debate and I swear I'll let you dangle Bill over the highest bridge in Japan for atleast ten minutes. What is it that disturbs you most? And you can't go back to the article thing. That ones worn out. Aspen said so. Are you really a communist? I'm serious. I've never met one.</p>

<p>My records indicate you're still a student. Teeeeeasing! :) :) :)</p>