LAC for jazz musician/maybe not music major

Parents Forum
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<p>When my musical son was looking for a liberal arts college that had a good music program, with lots of opportunities for participation, we got the distinct impression from Oberlin that being musical was not much of a "hook" for either merit money or admission. Now, that may be true for colleges in general (they don't seem to give much weight to being a musician :( ), and he ruled out Oberlin because he just didn't like it, but since merit money was critical to our quest Oberlin would have been eliminated in favor of better bets. </p>

<p>BTW, he ended up at Denison and is very much enjoying his music minor there. (He plays trumpet.) I might add though that, unfortunately, their jazz ensemble if the one he enjoys the least.</p>

62

<p>Also not a LAC, but Tulane has a jazz studies program and both formal and informal student ensembles. Plus you're in one of the great jazz/music cities - jazz was invented there and music continues to be a huge part of the city. The college is mid-sized, not overly large, but has excellent academic programs and beautiful facilities.</p>

<p>It's an incredibly nice and welcoming campus as well, encourages diverse double majors and gives very good merit scholarships. If I was your son, I'd take a look.
<a href="http://www.tulane.edu/%7Emusic/programs/bfajazzstudies.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tulane.edu/~music/programs/bfajazzstudies.htm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.tulane.edu/%7Emusic/ensembles/jazz.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tulane.edu/~music/ensembles/jazz.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Also, with his grades, your son would be eligible for the Dean's Honor Scholarship, which pays full tuition.</p>

<p>Sorry, just read page two of this thread and saw that you are considering Tulane. I'll just add that my own S will be attending there this fall, and I have been impressed by our visits and our interaction with staff, faculty and students there. Once you visit, you kind of fall in love with the place. I'm a former music major, and I was impressed by the level of musicianship of the students playing in the student ensembles.</p>

63

<p>Having just returned from Oberlin only a day ago, I will tell you exactly what we were told, and this was in the conservatory. There is not very much opportunity to play in the high level ensembles as a non-major, and this would be for kids trying to cross genres from classical to jazz and vice versa (my son plays both). We were told this from the classical teacher on one of his instruments, and it was reiterated by the jazz teacher. I can't imagine that the college kids have many opportunities, if even conservatory kids can't cross audition easily. I have no idea about the "non-conservatory" music groups, however.</p>

<p>We have researched LAC music extensively, and all I can say is that it varies very widely. For kids who have played at a very high level in high school (through youth orchestras, prep programs, etc), the level of play, even in top notch LACs is not as impressive as we expected. Most websites have mp3 files of some of their groups, which are great screening tools.</p>

64

<p>Oberlin does a fabulous job of providing information on their website. In addition to Financial Reports dating back ten years and extensive institutional research, they have posted their Strategic Plan and the reports of the individual Working Groups covering various aspects of the Strategic Plan. There's quite a bit of useful information about how the College views the Conservatory/College. For example, they are planning to revise the College music major to be more like a liberal arts music major and less like "conservatory lite". They would like to see more availability of the Conservatory resources to college students and more use of the college resources by the conservatory students. They acknowledge that conservatory ensembles and opportunities are perceived as being as being limited for the college students.</p>

<p>Anyway, some interesting stuff in the planning documents. They are currently in the middle of reducing the enrollment by about 160 students with a goal of keeping the previous number of full-pay students in order to reduce the tuition discount rate. There are corresponding reductions in faculty to maintain the current student/faculty ratios after the downsizing. Solid management, IMO.</p>

65

<p>Thank you for the rescue, BassDad and Allmusic. I was beginning to feel like a frog paddling in a barrel of buttermilk. Not sure which would happen first: I'd drown or I'd produce butter. </p>

<p>InterestedDad's redirect to the website, plus jazzymom's readiness to ask hard questions for the individual applicant, are essential. </p>

<p>I'm interested in the diversity of opportunities from all the other colleges and unis. </p>

<p>There's a right fit out there for everyone, but no facile answers anywhere.</p>

66

<p>No facile answers?? Now, you tell me. Too late, I'm already a CC addict. Actually, this thread has been most helpful for me and I'm sure for the OP as well. </p>

<p>Allmusic: Were you looking mostly in the NE? You didn't come out here to CA did you? Did you look at USC's music school? Considering a hypothetical student who has jazz and other music ECs but may not be a conservatory level applicant, what list would you put together? Or do the suggestions on this thread already pretty much cover it?</p>

67

<p>My daughter is in her second year at Oberlin Conservatory and she has had absolutely no problems in crossing over with groups in several genres. Her major is classical bass, but she also takes secondary lessons in jazz bass and takes full advantage of ExCo offerings. She is not likely to get into the main Jazz ensemble but she has had plenty of opportunities to play classical, jazz, indie rock, klezmer, contradance, folk, mandinka, raga, bossa nova and whatever else strikes her fancy. She reports that some of the students there are interested only in classical music and they do not bother to seek out these kind of opportunities. Those who have interest in other forms have lots of opportunities, although not necessarily with the top level school-sponsored groups.</p>

68

<p>I was amused that ID a few posts back was surprised that an Interlochen level classical pianist might not interest Oberlin. As the father of an Interlochen classical pianist (and an Oberlin alumnus), I can tell you that he knew that he wasn't nearly good enough for the Conservatory. Many people underestimate the exceedingly high level of talent at the top conservatories. He did end up at another top LAC where he has had ample opportunities to perform, however.</p>

69

<p>I could be wrong, but IIRC he applied to the college not the con. Thing is though, his piano EC did not just fail to sufficiently impress Oberlin College. It also failed to sufficiently impress the other 8 or so colleges he applied to, all of which also rejected him. These other places didn't have conservatories so by prior logic they should have loved him more.</p>

<p>IMO there was something wrong with his app, or his essays, or something. He didn't show the love; the obvious fit vs. scholastic objectives. Something.</p>

<p>I know other kids with high stats that were rejected from schools they looked eminently qualified for. With no conservatories involved, or whatever. It's tough out there. Need to show the love, or they don't know that you've considered whether you really fit. If you don't care and that comes through that can be a problem these days.</p>

<p>FWIW, my daughter got some merit aid, small amount; music was major EC behind some nerdy stuff that nobody gives much credit to, unfortunately. And, of course, she was admitted. IIRC similar stats to this other kid we're talking about. But Oberlin was her #1 squeeze, and essays & apps probably reflected this well.</p>

70

<p>
[quote]
I was amused that ID a few posts back was surprised that an Interlochen level classical pianist might not interest Oberlin. As the father of an Interlochen classical pianist (and an Oberlin alumnus), I can tell you that he knew that he wasn't nearly good enough for the Conservatory. Many people underestimate the exceedingly high level of talent at the top conservatories.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This student wasn't applying to the Conservatory at Oberlin. He applied to the Liberal Arts College with the intention of majoring in Physics.</p>

<p>On the Interlochen thing, actually my point was just the opposite. Interlochen apps are probably a dime a dozen at Oberlin.</p>

71

<p>
[quote]
Thing is though, his piano EC did not just fail to sufficiently impress Oberlin College. It also failed to sufficiently impress the other 8 or so colleges he applied to, all of which also rejected him.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>He made the mistake of believing his GC that colleges were too busy to accept audition tapes. That was true for Yale. But, Swarthmore, where he also applied, specifically states that they will not consider music as tip factor on the application without an audition tape sent to the Music Department. In other words, applying to Swarthmore with a strong music EC without contacting the Music Department is admissions suicide. It's right there on the website under the Music Department's FAQ for prospective students. So he wiped out his main EC and his main essay topic by not visiting and sending a tape. Might have well have listed his main EC as serving on the Prom Committee.</p>

<p>Hence my advice to contact the Music department at each and every school, well in advance, and find out what you need to find out -- like, is it even the right school?</p>

<p>
[quote]
IMO there was something wrong with his app, or his essays, or something. He didn't show the love; the obvious fit vs. scholastic objectives. Something.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I can put that to rest. I read his essays, know his class rank, know his high school, etc. There was nothing "wrong" with his application at all except the whole thing was music, music, music and a music, music, music application really has too work admission through the Music department like a football application has to work through the football coach.</p>

<p>Anyway, he's at MIT now and happy as a clam...so all's well that ends well.</p>

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<p>For whatever reason, music is not a great "hook" for most colleges -- maybe there are too many kids out there applying to top schools who have taken years of lessons or are in school orchestras. Unless you are really a terrific performer -- someone who could probably get into a conservatory -- Harvard, Yale, etc. are not going to view it as a strong point that you took piano lessons. You need to win prizes, play in a top orchestra, go to prestigious and competitive summer programs for it to help. But by all means send CDs -- if they are well produced and show impressive playing -- such CDs cost quite a lot in terms of time and money (having gone through the process with my kid, I can say it was enormously time-consuming and cost hundreds of dollars, but he was applying to conservatories too; it seemed have been a boon, as he got great results, so it was worth it in the end). On the other hand, if you are musical and want to go to a liberal arts college, there are few that could match the environment at Oberlin; Williams and Pomona also have strong music departments, but there is no comparison in terms of the number of talented musicians about.</p>

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<p>Mamenyu</p>

<p>"For whatever reason, music is not a great "hook" for most colleges --"</p>

<p>I've found the exact opposite to be true.</p>

<p>" maybe there are too many kids out there applying to top schools who have taken years of lessons or are in school orchestras. Unless you are really a terrific performer -- someone who could probably get into a conservatory -- Harvard, Yale, etc. are not going to view it as a strong point that you took piano lessons."</p>

<p>ah, there is the catch - proper perspective</p>

<p>what I have found is that IF one is good enough to be considering conservatories, then music is a great hook for many colleges (including Harvard), if not, then it is just a nice EC</p>

<p>"You need to win prizes, play in a top orchestra, go to prestigious and competitive summer programs for it to help."</p>

<p>All that is fine if you are not conservatory caliber and certainly won't hurt with the admissions staff, but if you are looking for the hook, the music dept has to listen to you play. You must demonstrate how good you are to them.</p>

<p>"But by all means send CDs -- if they are well produced and show impressive playing"</p>

<p>Exactly.</p>

<p>" -- such CDs cost quite a lot in terms of time and money (having gone through the process with my kid, I can say it was enormously time-consuming and cost hundreds of dollars,"</p>

<p>add a zero - my son went into the studio with most of his rhythm section (drum kit, latin percussion, keyboards, bass) to record 4 songs</p>

<p>costs:
4 musicians, 7 hours each - 4hrs rehearsal, 3hrs in studio (spaced over three separate days)
3 hrs studio time (time in rehearsal space comped)
3 hrs recording engineer
8 hrs post production engineering time</p>

<p>figure 1-2K easy</p>

<p>"but he was applying to conservatories too;"</p>

<p>add more in that circumstance because everyone wants something different so figure more songs, more time, more $$$ - a friend of my son had to record 11 songs and configure 8 different demo CD's to conform to the various requirements of the schools and conservatories she was applying
to.</p>

<p>"it seemed have been a boon, as he got great results, so it was worth it in the end)."</p>

<p>Congratulations.</p>

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<p>I got ten CDs produced at a studio for about two hundred dollars in all, I believe. There was a good sound quality. I was done by eary afternoon, so it wasn't time consuming at all. I don't know why a "recording engineer" or "post production engineering time" would be needed.</p>

<p>I disagree that summer programs or competitions are necessarily needed. The most important factor is how you play.</p>

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<p>SJTH---The Theolonious Monk Institute of Jazz is moving from USC to Loyola New Orleans. Loyola is a wonderful school with a small but vibrant
school of music. They give out plenty of academic and merit aid. Besides the opportunities to jam with other students (in or out of the school of music), there are LOTS of opportunities to play in the city.</p>

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<p>Attending summer programs shows "passion" -- and is also the source of "passion." My kid's experiences over several summers -- 3 at one music camp, one on an orchestra tour in Europe, and another at a festival, were crucial to his whole sense of what it means to be a musician and to meeting other passionate musicians -- and he knows kids from those programs who are going to many of the top colleges and conservatory programs he applied to.</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>I think music at a very high level is still an excellent admissions hook, almost to the same extent as high-level sports. Music at the next level down is evidence of discipline and character, much like sports at the next level down: a good thing, but not sufficient in and of itself.</p></li>
<li><p>My son's friend who is looking at several conservatory acceptances and one Ivy still prefers Oberlin College to everything, even though he was rejected at the conservatory. He actually wants a strong general education, and one way or another he believes that Oberlin offers him the best balance of musical and non-musical opportunities. (He also really wants a LAC, which is absolutely the right choice for him.) I don't think he cares much about being in the top ensemble in this or that, but he cares a lot about being able to play with good people. He's spent time there, and he's convinced that Oberlin will work for him.</p></li>
<li><p>Re: summer programs and competitions. I agree that music (like writing) is something the colleges can judge for themselves fairly easily. But a track record of successful competition (including successful competition for admission to competitive programs) provides both external validation of quality, and an indication that the student is serious about pursuing music and has what it takes to be successful -- all of which is important in a career, in addition to the quality of one's playing in an empty room.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>Summer programs are not the source of passion. They can contribute to a student realizing his passion or devoting himself for fully to it, but it is not the "source." That is internal. </p>

<p>Showing passion is something I'm a little iffy about. It's a key college admissions phrase. Personally, I think that your level of interest in an activity is usually pretty easy to gauge on an application. If you want to do a summer program, do it, but don't do it because you want to "show passion." Last summer I was working stressful ten hour days, no breaks. I was exhausted a lot of the time, and I also had to fit in regular time with my friends. I still put in four hours of practice a day and lied to my parents about where I was when I was practicing and about how many hours I practiced because they didn't approve. I craved music every minute of the day, and "showing passion" was the last thing on my mind. Some summer programs are wonderful, but they are not necessary to feeing passion.</p>

<p>Summer programs and competitions can act as one way to show commitment or ability. There are other ways. Personally, I never went to a music camp, and I'm not sure I listed any orchestras on my application. I spent my summers working, for the most part, and there were no orchestras near me that played at a high enough level for me to participate in any meaningful way. I substituted for a local professional one summer for a short time, but that's it. My commitment and ability could come acros in other ways on my application. I am a soloist, so orchestras were never a priority of mine. I stated playing professionally when I was 10 or 11, so I could list that under "employment" to show ability to work as a professional. I could list "# hours / week" to show dedication. I know that each of my recs mentioned music. For a Conservatory application, you need to have recs from music teachers and conductors, which can restate all of these things. </p>

<p>Again, summer programs and competitions are great. I have nothing against them. I still do not think that they are necessary, either for musical growth or for college admissions purposes.</p>

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<p>What summer programs do, or at least have done for my kid, is to clarify that he loves the musical immersion with other kids who also want to play music all day long. We know kids who were bored with that level of intensity, after a week or two, and wanted a less focused experience. </p>

<p>He also really improved greatly as a player, as a result of that intensity, so for those reasons, I think the summer programs are very valuable experiences.</p>

80

<p>Actually only one of my kid's conservatory applications required a recommendation from a music teacher...for example, Juilliard only wants one from an English teacher (to show proficiency) The prescreening tapes and audition are key.
Rare is the kid who is a professional soloist at 10. For the rest of the hoi poloi of young musicians out there, summer camps and festivals can be fun and inspiring, and might (or might not) lead to great things.</p>