<p>Thanks p3T. </p>
<p>Actually, I can see S2 at Tufts or place like Middlebury bec he enjoys foreign language and is particularly fascinated by Russian. Will look into G.</p>
<p>"From an admissions standpoint, it's beneficial to sell something the particular college doesn't get as much of. "</p>
<p>While that may seem like a reasonable supposition for someone who has never been there to make, my daughter who is attending Oberlin College has shared her own observation that musical interests and extra-curriculars seem to her to be proportionally over-represented among the population of the college as well. My own observations, and the posts on CC of others who have been there, only reinforce her viewpoint.</p>
<p>If Oberlin College admissions people are supposed to be trying to actively de-value music-related extra-curriculars, then they seem to be really screwing up. For one thing they admitted my daughter. And that other kid I met there, majoring in music through the college. And paying3tuitions' husband, another college music major. And those other people my daughter has in mind.</p>
<p>Or maybe there are just so many such applicants to the college (not the con, the college) with these interests that they can't possibly weed them all out. Sort of like the way I was futily trying to bail water from my basement a couple days ago.</p>
<p>But they seem to be winding up there in the end, in any event.</p>
<p>The presence of the Conservatory has been a boon in advancing my daughter's musical interests, and enhancing her campus life. For many in the college with such interests I imagine it is also a boon. For some though it could be a problem, depending on exactly what they want to do and exactly how the inter-relations are worked out, and that's why it needs to be individually investigated.</p>
<p>I gave a list of less selective schools way up north in this thread somewhere.</p>
<p>I also was not dismissing Oberlin. I think it is a great school. But if your primary goal is to be able to have free-reign with musical electives, take lessons without auditioning, play in ensembles without much trouble, etc., it may not be the way to go. Yes, there is lots of music on the Oberlin campus, and that would be quite exciting for any musician, but I myself think it would be frustrating to head to Oberlin as a non-con student thinking you're going to be able to take advantage of all the conservatory has to offer, and then discover that your options are rather limited, no matter how much "music" there is on campus.</p>
<p>Again, Oberlin is a terrific school beyond the Con, so there are many OTHER reasons to consider it, but if you're the type of student described by the original poster, other options might be better choices.</p>
<p>My daughter's experience was actually the opposite. She entered the College assuming that she would get no benefit whatsoever from the Conservatory's presence, and in fact has benefited from it. </p>
<p>What someone in the college can get from the conservatory is clearly somewhere between nothing and everything, but where on the continuum it is, vs. what that individual wants, they have to explore.</p>
<p>monydad/p3t: </p>
<pre><code>What impact do you think the particular instrument a student plays might have on admissions chances at Oberlin?
Carolyn: I did note your earlier suggestions, but I'm still priming the pump a little.
</code></pre>
<p>If you mean to the Con, from what I've read it makes a lot of difference, as the field of applicants for certain instruments is more competitive than for others. Some instruments have particularly renowned teachers there.</p>
<p>There are others on CC who can give you a more informed answer to this question though, specifically people who frequent the Music Majors sub-forum</p>
<p>
[quote]
While that may seem like a reasonable supposition for someone who has never been there to make, my daughter who is attending Oberlin College has shared her own observation that musical interests and extra-curriculars seem to her to be proportionally over-represented among the population of the college as well. My own observations, and the posts on CC of others who have been there, only reinforce her viewpoint.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That was my point. Of course Oberlin has a strong cohort of musically interested students. Among other things, it's well-known for music. </p>
<p>It isn't that Oberlin's admissions office doesn't want musicians. It's that they also need to build a class that includes many other interests. And, they have to fill those other interests from an applicant pool that tilts towards music. Just like Williams has to fill their range of interests from an applicant pool that tilts towards sports. Just like Vassar has to fill its interests from an applicant pool that tilts towards the arts.</p>
<p>If the goal is to stand out from the pile of applicants, then it is an admissions advantage to offer interests that the school in question is not tilting towards. And, if your interests tilt in the prevailing direction, then you have to evaluate how you stack up against the large number of applicants with the same interests. That's all. It's not a complex formula. It's just simple common sense.</p>
<p>I was not suggest that the original poster would or would not stack up against the other music-tilting applicants at Oberlin. I have no idea. The OP might be such a strong applicant that it is irrelevant. Or, he might not be. I was merely suggesting, as a general concept, that exploring this question (indirectly) when the student contacts the music department at Oberlin would be a good idea. Just like an athlete needs to explore his or her potential admissions desirability when meeting with coaches.</p>
<p>Is athletics going to be a boost in admissions? Am I talented or committed enough to even make the team? For example, no matter how much interest I may have in baskeball, I'm not going to make the Duke basketball team and Duke is not going to give me bonus points because I played in high school. If the interests are not going to get bonus points, does the applicant offer something else that will make his application stand out from the pack? To me, admissions odds boils down to a pretty simple question: to what degree will my app stand out from the crowd?</p>
<p>I absolutely think the OP should put Oberlin high on the list of schools to consider, contact, and visit. It sounds like a great fit. But, he should also explore the options for a non-music major at a music-oriented school. As I stated initially, talking to music professors and students, either through e-mail or in person, would be the best way to judge. I have found that professors at LACs tend to be honest in either recommend their school or suggesting that some other school might offer more opportunities for a particular student.</p>
<p>Jazzymom: you asked about UC's other than UCLA (whose jazz program is in the School of Arts and Architecture). UC Santa Barbara and UC Santa Cruz also offer BA and BMus degrees. I have only looked into classical music, but it looked like Santa Barbara has an appealing music program -- there is a lot of information on their website, including about visiting groups, master classes, etc. The jazz department at UCLA is small, but the students I know of who are in the program are quite good; the ethnomusicology program, also in the School of Arts and Architecture, requires an audition. UC Berkeley has an excellent musicology department, though it is mainly academic; at least for classical music, there are lots of excellent performance opportunities.</p>
<p>Thanks for those insights mamenyu. In many ways, with its jazz program and Russian studies program, UCLA would be a good fit for S2, but there is absolutely no predicting UCLA admissions. Crapshoot doesn't quite capture the seeming randomness of admissions there. When it comes to the UCs, you want to have a plan B (or C).</p>
<p>monydad: My soph hasn't quite ruled out the music performance major yet, and I take it that that's a whole other gauntlet to run. I'll start lurking on that site as well. </p>
<p>I definitely think the music EC is tricky when it comes to applying to colleges with outstanding music programs/conservatories when the applicant is not majoring in music. My assumption about adcoms is that they are trying to determine if an applicant "will add" to the campus community in some compelling way, not be one of many doing the same. I think the key thing for the nonmusic major applicant to do at these institutions is to make sure they highlight other aspects of their application, specific other ECs and genuine academic interests. For example, S1 played jazz trumpet all through middle school and high school; it was his main EC. But he had no interest in majoring in music and when he applied to college, he placed much more emphasis on his academic interests. The music EC didn't keep him out of Northwestern, despite the strong music program there.</p>
<p>My kid auditioned successfully at UCLA, but found the whole experience off-putting and is not considering it at this point. The most irritating part of the whole process was that they do everything by email, which proved unreliable; thus, he was never informed about whether he passed the prescreening. I urged him to call on the Monday before the audition, and it turned out he had passed the prescreening, but they hadn't notified him or followed up on it. The audition itself was the least friendly he encountered; but that might be different for jazz. I did note when I was there that the list posted of students who had passed the prescreening included a large number who did not schedule auditiions -- perhaps they never got an email either and their mothers didn't pester them. When I spoke to the admissions person, he said they had trouble with the emails, especially to yahoo accounts. I asked why they didn't send a follow up email -- he said "how could I, with over 750 applicants?" Don't they have computers at UCLA that can do this?
One thing to consider is that if you apply to the College of Arts and Architecture and don't get an audition, at least for classical music, you are rejected from UCLA.<br>
For nonmajors, it might be difficult to get classes.
UCSB is a friendlier department -- and you can audition by CD if you can't make it there.</p>
<p>I admire jazzymom's tenacity. It's the same city I inhabit.</p>
<p>Using my critical thinking and empirical knowledge, and trying hard to hang onto both these days...</p>
<p>my experience with Oberlin College is that they regard music as I do garlic in my kitchen: there's no such thing as "too much." If they had an entire school full of academically strong, passionate, social-justice, scientific etc. thinkers who ALSO loved hearing, attending concerts of friends and visitors, and participated informally in music, they'd be happy to see l00% of the students "also" having music EC's. So it's not a matter of standing out from the pack.
It can only help admissions chances and (my guess) never hurt to have music EC's as vague or strong as is real for that applicant. It's garlic, it's all good.
They are SO sophisticated there in their understanding that music underlies/strengthens/enriches every other possible academic area. Nobody blinks to hear, "I'm double majoring in Math and Music..." "Psych and Music"...
"Econ and Music..." No combination is considered strange, and that's how thoroughtly the College "gets" what music means to the soul of the non-professional musician. They also want to see great big audiences at every concert, supportive college friends at the connie's recitals, dialogue at dinner tables about the French Revolution and Baroque music (did I get that right) and wild conjecture between kids studying computer science or string theory in Physics with those composing using random choice for notes...and all of this does occur.</p>
<p>The most moving thing I heard said at my D's orientation 4 years ago was from the Dean of the Conservatory, who spoke right after the Dean of the College, to all assembled parents: We're going to tell every college student that if they spend 4 years here and never check out the Con, they're not doing their full job...but I will be also reminding the Con students that if they do not check out the intellectual resources of the college while here, they too are not doing their full job. </p>
<p>And while I know there are Connies never seen outside of practice rooms except to eat and sleep, a goodly number do connect intellectually and socially, very powerfully, with the college students. The 5-year Double Major kids, hands-down the most fascinating/fun people of all. </p>
<p>But from the APPLICANT's point of view, that's where the goals have to be researched. I believe Oberlin would welcome everything from a mild interest in
appreciating music (that's me) to a music major like my H. AdComs are experienced/honest answering these questions, and want to make absolutely sure nobody is misunderstanding --to the point of being disappointed-- the options available to a musician in the college who'd have been supertops at any other college but not so around Oberlin's environment. I know they will level with you upon inquiry. It is not in their interests to misrepresent.</p>
<p>As for the particular instrument, I think perhaps a voice person might find more outlet (through the Oberlin College Choir) than a violinist, unless there's such a thing now as an Oberlin COllege Orchestra and I don't think there is.
There are also a-cappella groups for singing fun, but that's everywhere these days. But something like voice might have more opportunity than oboe, for example. Again, I am reluctant to misadvise because it means too much to students to talk out of my ear.
The college admissions officers are asked these things all the time, so I expect answers might even be found at that accessible level, without fancy meetings with the Conservatory necessary to find out.
I hope I'm helpful and honest, certainly am trying.</p>
<p>Must go chop up some garlic now...</p>
<p>I think paying3tuitions has made the case cogently and persuasively. But just to sum up:
(1) Having an interest in music as an EC is not necessarily going to carry as much weight <em>in the admissions process</em> at Oberlin as it might at a school where musicians are scarce (though it certainly won't work against you).
But (2) every student <em>admitted</em> to Oberlin will find ample opportunities to make music. There are now four orchestras at Oberlin, two of which are primarily for College (as opposed to Conservatory) students. And so on...</p>
<p>Two different issues, which have somehow gotten confused in this thread.</p>
<p>p.s. Out of garlic. </p>
<p>THANK YOU< DAVE!!!</p>
<p>But I'll stop with this post: Oberlin's real struggle, honestly, is that their resources outrank their location. They've been hearing about being "in the middle of a cornfield" (which is now a suburb of Cleveland) for 150 years.
So what they want most at the College are kids who appreciate the resources,
are at peace with the location (even tho it's not Cali, Texas or NYC, other big cities of the East Coast where so many students hail from). Chicago kids, Kansas City kids, well they are no problem but the prejudice against being in the Midwest is really an irritant to the ears of admissions people.
TThat, and misunderstandings about the social environment (it's not a hippie college).
Also: they have strengthened their science offerings very much in the past 20 years with keen attention to environmental sciences, computer sciences as well as traditional science fields which were always good.</p>
<p>They are more concerned that a college student understand the national-quality resource offering, so won't get unhappy with the small-town midwestern location. "There is so much going on there that there's no need to leave the campus on weekends" is absolutely true.</p>
<p>Folded into that context, any college student who ALSO sees the Con as a resource is much appreciated because it adds to that student's happiness and commitment to the place, once admitted.</p>
<p>For this reason, the "Why Oberlin?" essay is their most important essay in the application, and they say so at tours/meetings. A complete understanding of why you want to attend includes backgrounds research demonstrating you are not fantasizing about options that aren't there (which is where the conclusions of jazzymom's music research will be helpful and important to express), but that you know what IS possible with the individual applicant's music goal against what can or can't be done at the Con. If it's accurate once you've made all your inquiries to say, "I'd look forward to attending Oberlin for x,y,z reasons AND I know I could take lessons from a Conservatory student (but not a Con teacher), participate in informal ensembles, walk on (if that's what your research bears out) to some formal ensembles, and take many (if not all) Conservatory classes... these then are some of the "Why, OBerlin?" for that individual student.</p>
<p>My instinct is that they would want to admit you based on everything else except the music EC, and then the music EC puts it over the top. In other words, take away the music and what's left...if what's left is a strong LAC applicant with a sense of community, a unique writer's voice/story to share,
accomplishments in another academic discipline, that this could be the basis for college admission. If "all" there was was the music EC, then maybe I'd be concerned because why would that add to the campus as a whole. If you decide to apply, express on the app both the non-music and music EC's, be sure to bring in the nonmusic EC's into sharp focus, and thoroughly understand "Why Oberlin."<br>
Dave is absolutely on target with my experience. And see how important it is to update info...now there are 4 orchestras, 2 primarily for college and 2 for con students. I didn't know that, and hope that really helps jazzymom and the OP.</p>
<p>If music is the only EC, it won't alone parachute someone into Oberlin College. But these inquirers had multiple talents/accomplishments/interests. That really is speaking the language of Oberlin (and other schools too, of course).</p>
<p>Other California options: University of the Pacific, Dave Brubeck's alma mater, has a jazz focus. USC has a very strong jazz program at the grad level, and well-known music programs in general, so I assume they must be good in jazz for undergrad as well.</p>
<p>UCs: UCSC has some very good music. Maybe more world music than jazz, but there is a nice jazz performance spot in Santa Cruz. Could be a nice choice, music under the redwoods.
UCSD is more known for modern or computer music, but I know a jazz kid who was very happy with the offerings there. Worth looking at.</p>
<p>As for UCLA, our daughter was an art major there and I know from her experience it's difficult to double major across the boundaries between L and S and the College of Arts and Architecture. She took plenty of courses in L and S, but a history major there would have added at least another year. Also, it could be difficult to get into the College of Arts and Architecture classes for L and S majors. That's how they keep the art and music classes small. When our son investigated UCLA as a potential student in L and S he met with someone in the music department who said there were always a few spots of non-majors in the jazz ensembles if you were good enough. By good enough, he figured better than he was.</p>
<p>Just wanted to say "wow" to p3t for those amazing insights into how Oberlin "ticks" and thx to sac for the UCSC suggestion. This S has been so into music to date that he hasn't devoted much time to other ECs. He's in the top jazz band at school, a community youth orchestra, and a jazz combo with a group of friends that plays for community service and at low-paying gigs and they all have sectionals and rehearsals. I can imagine him choosing not to be a music performance major, but I can't imagine him not wanting to have music available in college as an outlet and entertainment. I have a much better idea now for how to help him frame his college search and what questions to ask. So thanks everyone.</p>
<p>jazzymom --Your S's jazz involvement should stand him in good stead. In our experience, colleges love to see the kind of depth you describe, rather than a resume full of token involvement in a variety of ecs. He hasn't been padding his resume, he's been following his genuine passion. Even colleges not particularly known for music recognize the kind of commitment that music involves. I know my S couldn't imagine not playing music in college, though he never intended to be a music major. It's a social niche, and a source of joy. Good luck with the search and application process. Whatever comes out of it, I'm sure your kid will have music as part of his life.</p>
<p>Thanks, sac. That is my hope. I just love to listen to him play that sax...the way he improvises.... the way sports parents love to watch their S or D dunk the basketball or hit the home run. He's really very good for his age, but from talking to various music teachers, he doesn't feel confident about "making it" as a musician in the real world. We know quite a few people though who maintain their chops by playing in bands in low-key local venues while earning a living at other careers. I'd like him to be able to explore other academic interests in college while continuing to play in ensembles or jazz bands. We'll see, I guess, whether that's MY wish for him or his wish as well. Appreciate your UP and UC suggestions.</p>
<p>I second garland's comments re: Wesleyan. My S is a freshman at Wesleyan and is performing in umpteen music groups -- may or may not be a music major. In high school he performed in many honors bands including All State Band, All State Jazz Band, and NJ Governor's School/Music. He heard from friends at Ivies and other top schools that college bands/ensembles often were not as high level as the honors bands in which he had played ;he was prepared to play in these college groups for a year or two and then look elsewhere in the area for teachers, performance opportunities, etc. He was #8 in a class of 400 and sent in CDs of his music to all the schools to which he applied but I doubt that this helped at all. I believe that Tufts was the only school which did not want applicants to send in music CDs. He met with the Music Performance Coordinator at one Ivy (where he was legacy) and the Coordinator said he'd send a positive recommendation to Admissions but it didn't help in the long run. However, my son is having a great experience at Wesleyan and loves all his music activities. He's even helped organize an ensemble (for credit) and worked to obtain an instructor who plays in the Hartford (or is it CT?) Symphony. He's playing in a student sponsored band that has won several regional Battles of the Bands.</p>
<p>I have been studiously avoiding this whole Oberlin debate, but paying3's eloquent post has finally drawn me in.</p>
<p>First off, the French Revolution is generally dated 1789-1799. That is the height of the Classical Period in European music. Various music historians put the end of the Baroque Period between 1750 (the year of JS Bach's death) and 1760. Baroque music was becoming less and less popular well before that. I can't think of a single well-known French composer from around the end of the eighteenth century, coming up only with names like Gossec and Mehul. That is not too surprising, given the association between art music and the aristocracy. I suppose there would have been a few old geezers humming Couperin tunes on the eve of the revolution, but Baroque music was long out of style by then.</p>
<p>Getting back to Oberlin, Paying3tuitions and dave72 have hit the nail on the head. As part of dave72's point number 2, I would add that there are a large number of student-run groups that come and go. They cover a wide spectrum of musical interests and ability levels. They draw membership from both the conservatory and the college and provide ample opportunities for anyone who wishes to perform or just jam with like-minded friends. Anyone who is interested in such a group would have very little trouble in joining or starting one.</p>
<p>It is true that a non-music major will not be able to get into some conservatory classes and is not likely to be able to study with certain highly-popular teachers. Prospective students for whom these things are important would do well to make specific inquiries before applying or enrolling.</p>
<p>I am no expert on this. Son who plays jazz piano but definitely did not want to major chose not to go to Oberlin as he felt the opportunities to play and learn would be diminished. I am not sure if this absolutely was the case- but that was his determination. He is at another LAC and has had semester after semester of playing and learning opportunities, but for a pianist it might be different.</p>
<p>I think UNLESS a student is going the conservatory route...being a musician applying to Oberlin is not necessarily an advantage come admissions time. NB Andison.</p>