<p>@Rabban, calm down... I was simply posing a question, there's no need to get aggressive</p>
<p>My perspective, in a nutshell: if you want to do research at an LAC, you can. The profs are there to work and support YOU, and there aren't as many restrictions, based on the flexibility of a LAC.
If you want to do research at a big school, you will have to find a professor who is willing to work you. Sounds easy enough, but the professors are focused on their own research. They also prefer to work with graduate students. If you get to work with a prof, dont expect to have much freedom in your own personal interests. The research professors are there to do research. Thats it. (thats why there is a frequent complaint about how you may have the 'top' profs at one school, but you may not have any access to them)</p>
<p>When it comes to undergraduate research, funding has a big say. McGill, as far as I know, is exceptionally wealthy and gets funds from all around the world, NIH and Canadian ministries I would guess. I'm not sure Pomona has the same amount of resources available. The past summer I had a volunteering position at U of Toronto's neuroscience dept and I hated my position. Besides keeping the lab clean I took records of lab rats and occasionally executed some of them( had my finger bitten in the process). My father does research at the Cleveland Clinic so I know a thing or two about research traditions. Unless one has the academic background or inside connections, most undergraduates are used as lab *****es. I learned far more from assisting my dad in his lab than volunteering at U of Toronto. </p>
<p>For academics, more general courses at McGill such as intro bio or first year physical chem would have at least 100 per lecture. But as the classes become more specific, say advanced 3rd year neuroscience, the class size would be much smaller (that's what I heard). </p>
<p>What about MCATs or pre med? How well does each of the schools prepare premed students for med school?</p>
<p>those asterix in the middle of labs aren't meant to be there...there's no second meaning, just my brother fooling around with my computer.</p>
<p>I chose Pomona over McGill last year for a number of reasons.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Administration
The administration at Pomona is supportive almost to the point of ridiculousness, readily funding nearly anything that a student can ask for. Someone once joked that if the students ever decided to riot, the administration would supply us with food/drinks, etc. and help us out. When I visited McGill, it seemed like there was just a lot of red tape, which is understandable; there are a lot more students to account for, so they have to just go by the book to prevent chaos.</p></li>
<li><p>Academics
McGill is very academically reputable, and there are some outstanding students, but there are also some not so outstanding students. At a school like Pomona, nearly everyone in each of your classes was in the top of their class, and you realy can't overestimate the value of being around incredibly bright and interesting people all the time. </p></li>
<li><p>Weather
I wanted to get away from the cold I grew up in, so Pomona was obviously a winner in this category, where it is 80 and sunny every single day (not an exagerration) and a cool low 60's at night. At McGill, they cancel classes when it falls below -40(Farenheit or Celsius...its the same temp) and they do this more than once a year. I knew this was important, but my decision was made even more clear this past week when I sat out in the sun and read, while my friends in the northeast complained about the snow. (There's skiing here anyway)</p></li>
<li><p>Attention
McGill has classes with up to 500 students, some of which have to sit in a room and watch the lecture via video-sync. At Pomona, outside of the 3 intro to chem classes, you'll never have a class over 25, and most of mine have been half that size. This makes it really easy to lunch with professors, get hooked up with research opportunities, the list is endless.</p></li>
<li><p>And so on
I could go further and further as to why (housing is another big one) Pomona was a very good choice for me (and probably most people) over McGill..but I feel like I've driven the point home.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>As for research:</p>
<p>I'm an econ major, and I was easily able to find funding for an independent research project over the summer RIGHT AFTER FRESHMAN YEAR.</p>
<p>I'm ready for rabban to jump on me for mentioning my friends, but two of my close friends are neuro majors, one has a SURP (paid research assistant position over the summer), and won't just be cleaning beakers. The other just secured an internship at a hospital through the neuro department and Pomona's CDO. Additionally, Pomona just finished a brand new state of the art center for psych,neuro and cognitive science, so they'd be well suited to take you wherever you want to go in neuroscience.</p>
<p>To the OP: You're choosing between two excellent enough schools. You will be academically respected for either of your choices. The best info I've seen came in the first two responses to your post, and it comes down to fit. If research ops are as important to you as this thread suggests, then you should certainly do <em>your own</em> research through each school (as you've gotten pretty much what you're going to get here) and decide if offerings are sufficiently available and attainable. </p>
<p>My only real advice is to VISIT VISIT VISIT. This won't only be your school four 4 years; it will be your home. For this reason, I think that "fit" factors (and other things like location--not just weather, but distance from home/family--and cost) warant a lot of consideration, especially since you ARE choosing between two awesome places. Neither research ops nor small classes will seem that important if you're otherwise, for whatever reason, miserable. I'd recommend enough research re: the details to make sure you're not intolerably limiting yourself, and then getting back to the big picture. Congrats and good luck!</p>
<p>The main point that the University-supporters make is that universities offer superior research opportunities. However, it's been made clear in this thread that those research opportunities, while probably superior, go mostly to the amazing undergrads and grad students.</p>
<p>Another point that the University-supporters make is that the universities have faculties with better research and a better standing in the academic community. However, it has already been said by others here that these professors are quite isolated from the students. Even if a student has one of these superstar professors, it doesn't mean that they have access to them or have them in a small class. Also, a professor's research ability does not reflect his/her teaching ability at all.</p>
<p>I don't see how it's not clear that LAC's are better for undergraduate education. The arguments by those who support universities instead are easily flawed. It comes down to the question of... would you rather go to a huge school with huge class sizes and some superstar professors, who you will never see, and great research you will never take part in. Or, would you rather go to a school with small class sizes and professors who are amazing at TEACHING and accessible, with good research opportunities?</p>
<p>By the way, the issues of LAC's being too small can be easily addressed by consortiums. There are 7,000 students in the Claremont Consortium, which is comparable to the size of a small university.</p>
<p>Atomicfusion, I don't think it's <em>quite</em> that easily simplified, or there wouldn't BE any question (agree, though I may). </p>
<p>In my opinion, most of what the debate boils down to is anedcotally-based opinion and personal preference. In nearly every single thread on this sort of topic, the first few posters tend to get all the main points out of the way, and after that it's more or less head-butting. I think the important point is that the OP has plenty of information to go off and do some informed, well-directed question-asking of his own.</p>
<p>I think brassmonkey's info about neuroscience at Pomona pretty much seals the deal. I really think Pomona is the stronger choice.</p>
<p>I think you might also want to analyze your personality type. If you're very outgoing and are willing to take the initiative to meet your professors, McGill may be a better bet [large university = better resources]. However, if you're not willing/able to fight for your professors' attention, go with Pomona.</p>
<p>McGill is ranked 21st in the world. Agree with that ranking or not, it has international prestige. I'm from the East coast and Pomona is not a household name. I've never heard the name (other than in the rankings) or known anyone who went there (or anyone who applied for that matter). Before you ask, I go to a school where 98% of students go on to four year colleges and half go to very competitive schools. While I'm sure it's a terrific school (and in some ways better than McGill), it doesn't have the name recognition of McGill. So, unless you are planning on living in CA, McGill is probably a better choice if you want to get a job. </p>
<p>Honestly, debating the marginal difference in academics is pointless. If you think you're going to emerge from college with an undergraduate science degree and start work the next day, then you're dreaming. The reality is you'll need to go to graduate school, or at the very least, undergo extensive job training. </p>
<p>I'm not sure you should be taking other people's opinions. Go to the school that you will be most happy at. If you love great cities with excellent night life, Montreal has the upper hand. If you want a quiet campus to relax at, it sounds like Pomona is for you.</p>
<p>"The reality is you'll need to go to graduate school, or at the very least, undergo extensive job training."</p>
<p>And if this fact is the case, then the household name-value of your undergraduate school is an absolute moot point. As long as it's a school with a good track record for getting students into respectable grad programs and jobs, which Pomona is, then you'll be just fine.</p>
<p>Above all, hss07 had it right with "Go to the school that you will be most happy at."</p>
<p>I only meant it in that there is only so much you can learn as an undergraduate, so splitting hairs over academics between two academically strong schools, in the scheme of things, is less important than other factors. The specifics of a field are rarely covered, at least in any kind of entirety, in four years. If you want to debate it though, since McGill has no core curriculum (and I'm assuming Pomona as top LAC does), there is more focus on the specific major at McGill. </p>
<p>The household name does affect life after undergrad. Though I'm sure any grad school will be more than well informed of Pomona, jobs could be a different story, depending where you go. I suppose what I really mean is "don't choose Pomono just because it's ranked number X on US News," because not everyone reads it. Choose it because it's right for you. If you go down the road, in my opinion, an internationally ranked school is more impressive than a nationally ranked school. </p>
<p>But again, this is a sidestep from my point that I think your focus in choosing should be more on the overall experience than on other things at this point. Personally, I see Montreal as the better experience, but obviously some don't. It DOES have the highest concentration of college students in North America, as well as provides a great opportunity to become fluent in French. At half the cost of Pomona, McGill is a bargain. Just my two cents.</p>
<p>hss07, I think we agree on everything but our wording:</p>
<p>"I suppose what I really mean is "don't choose Pomono just because it's ranked number X on US News," because not everyone reads it. Choose it because it's right for you."</p>
<p>Because what I mean is something akin to "Don't choose McGill just because it might or might not give you a slight edge in the international job market. Choose it because it's right for you" (and I agree that certain situations/goals could definitely warrant choosing a school based on that edge, but this doesn't really seem to be the case with the OP). And if you read an older post of mine in this thread, I pretty much echo what you're saying now, which is basically that anything other than fit or overall experience is just hair-splitting when it comes down to two such excellent schools.</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>hss07, I think we agree on most things other than our wording:</p>
<p>"I suppose what I really mean is "don't choose Pomono just because it's ranked number X on US News," because not everyone reads it. Choose it because it's right for you."</p>
<p>Because what I mean is something akin to "Don't choose McGill just because it might or might not give you a slight edge in the international job market. Choose it because it's right for you" (and I agree that certain situations/goals could definitely warrant choosing a school based on that edge, but this doesn't really seem to be the case with the OP). And if you read an older post of mine in this thread, I pretty much echo what you're saying now, which is basically that anything other than fit or overall experience is just hair-splitting when it comes down to two such excellent schools.</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>Thanks for all the opinions! I chose McGill, sent in my reply a few days ago. I'm actually Canadian so it's a push for me in Montreal.</p>
<p>""" If you want to debate it though, since McGill has no core curriculum (and I'm assuming Pomona as top LAC does), there is more focus on the specific major at McGill. """</p>
<p>Neither school has a core curriculum.</p>