LAC VS Tier 1

Colleges & Universities A-Z Kenyon College
1

<p>I came across Kenyon while researching places to potentially teach at upon earning my PHD, and to be honest, I hadn't heard it, or many of the places mentioned on this board (Smith, Oberlin, etc). However, after reading up, it seems that Kenyon is a well-reputed, nice liberal arts college. </p>

<p>However, I am simply wondering what Kenyon's reputation, level of prestige, level of education, etc. would be when compared with public and large private universities, not only LACS. </p>

<p>For instance, as per the boards here, Kenyon's English program is highly touted. However, if lets say an individual were accepted into the English program at Berkley, Northwestern, UT-Austin, UChicago, Stanford, etc. what would be the motivation to attend Kenyon over Universities in the afforementioned class? </p>

<p>What would draw one to attend a top LAC like Kenyon over a Tier 1 University? Please note that I am not flaming or 'trolling'; I am really interested in a discussion, and as Kenyon is a top LAC, I thought this might be a good place to start and learn more.</p>

<p>Thanks, and take care :)</p>

2

<p>Small classes; small classes; small classes–and every advantage that ensues as a result (a smaller campus, not feeling like a number, intellectual discussion instead of listening to lectures with hundreds of other students) </p>

<p>Also: No classes taught by graduate students—the professors teach all classes; being invited to dinner by your profs.—you can actually get to know them. Most LACs lack Division I sports (this is considered a positive by many) and a significant number of LACs de-emphasize, and in some cases completely lack, Greek life (also considered a positive by many) although it is my understanding Kenyon has some Greek life.</p>

<p>I have a D at a flagship state u and one at a top LAC (Oberlin) and the second one is definitely getting a better education. The work load and academic challenge far exceeds that at most large universities. My D had a choice between Oberlin and a few other LACs and Cornell University. She picked Oberlin. ONe visit to Cornell’s campus and that of our state’s flagship state U was all it took to make her cringe. She decided any campus that requires a bus and bus stops to get from one part of campus to the other was not for her. She decided that any school that has several hundred freshmen in some first year classes --with a TA teaching and grading instead of the professor – was ridiculous and not an ideal learning environment. Maybe her opinion is extreme but I can’t argue with her facts.</p>

<p>I graduated from two large universities, one private, one public. For the life of me, I can’t name one advantage to having gone to either one versus an LAC, other than the ability to be anonymous among tens of thousands of other students, if one considers anonymity desirable.</p>

<p>Perhaps that is how you should approach this issue. Instead of asking why go to an LAC versus the type of universities you listed, you should ask why would a person go to one of those universities over a top LAC?</p>

3

<p>Your daughter is still an underclassman. See if she still feels that way after she graduates.</p>

<p>Hopefully the following will not happen to her. All of these happened to D1, at an LAC. </p>

<p>1) She masters the small school quickly, after year one there are no new vistas and it inevitably becomes quite boring, motivating a “study abroad”, or elsewhere.</p>

<p>2) she does an internship, or study abroad, in a major city or larger school, comes back and is from that point forward completely bored with the setting and size of her school. She finds the combination of a small school in a small town is lethal.</p>

<p>3) She sees the same people all the time, around and in campus. Turns out, despite superficial apparent fit, she doesn’t like most of them, and vica versa. Unfortunate falling out with her “group” after sophomore year. But due to small school size she is stuck with same people, nowhere to turn. The same kids in multiple classes, saying the same points…</p>

<p>4) Some classes with too few students to have intelligent discussion, or not be embarrassing.</p>

<p>5) Gets interested in a particular sub-area of her field, only to find that her small department offered zero courses in that sub-area.</p>

<p>6) comes back from term away, has to finish major, forced to take courses she is not interested in because the several she is interested in are not given that semester, or that year.</p>

<p>7) Since no TA, decides to take up the alleged LAC advantage by asking the Prof. for help. He proceeds to put a question on the exam in the exact area he saw that she was weak on. If she’d gone to a TA it is unlikely this exact question would have shown up on the exam, as I understand it. Also IMO he made a mental note that she was not getting it , as a consequence of her asking for help, and affected his other grading.</p>

<p>8) A larger course there, where IMO at a large university they obviously would have assigned a paper, I was shocked to see that all she had were two exams. Explanation: since Prof would have had to grade all herself, no TA, she assigned less work.</p>

<hr>

<p>In large lecture classes at most universities, lectures are given by professors, the TAs
"teaching "in these coures is mostly confined to recitation sections where they are going over homework problems. They do grading though, that’s true. though can be appealed to Prof. At large intro classes at top LACs they use less-qualified undergrads as TAs.</p>

<h2>If there is a bus, it is because the U offers twenty zillion times what the LAc offers. At the case in point, seven undergrad colleges and four grad colleges are all located there. However the individual colleges are organized into their own buildings or quads, most people attending a particular college rarely need to take a bus.</h2>

<p>The trade-off of university vs. LAC is one of small, personal scale vs. more of everything: more social options, more sections of classes, more courses to choose from altogether, more extracurricular options. It’s not that the LAC doesn’t have lots, but it may not have all the ones you might prefer to take if they were available, as actually happened to D1. If D1 had gotten interested in that sub-area and attended a university she could have pursued it there. also there are more likely to be conflicts due to fewer sections of each class, or classes given only every other year, if that often. If it turned out she meshed well with the group of people she was forced to repeatedly interact with at the small school that could have wound up being great. But the risk is, as was the case, this will not happen and then there are fewer places to turn.</p>

<p>Let’s not even talk about on-campus recruiting…</p>

4

<p>Here’s a post from someone on CC who transferred from an LAC to a university:</p>

<p>">in what ways did you feel stifled at the LAC?</p>

<p>Primarily because of the smaller number of options. These are all real examples I experienced. You want to take any classes in clinical psychology? There are only three, and they’re all taught by the same professor. You think that professor’s an airhead? Too bad. You want to take another political science seminar? You’ll be taking it with the same 15 students who were in your last political science seminar, whose opinions you’ve already heard all last semester. You want to be in a mainstage play this semester? Here’s your ONE choice, and it’s an experimental post-modernist adaptation of a Gertrude Stein piece. You want to do psychology field research as a sophomore? These are the four areas that are currently being studied by the faculty – hope one of them is actually related to what you want to do.</p>

<br>

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<p>Sure, it’s probably easier to get close to lots of them at an LAC. But knowing every single professor well is not equally important to everyone. At a university, you have to take the initiative to spend time with the professors that interest you most, so whether you form close relationships or get lost in the crowd is up to you. You also have more profs to choose from, and you can find ones in any field of study who really “click” with you – as long as you are aggressive about finding them! So which type of school is “better” just depends on you personality and priorities. "</p>

<p>and:</p>

<p>"A good LAC is like a formal sit-down restaurant. Helpful waiters lead you to a booth, bring you the menu and explain the options available. There are several choices for each course, and each one will be nicely prepared and brought directly to your table. It’s very safe and cosy, and you’re unlikely to be surprised or disappointed by anything you order. But if you want something that’s not on that menu – or if you don’t like the people you’re seated with – you’re just out of luck.</p>

<p>A good university is like the midnight buffet on a cruise ship. There are literally thousands of choices, from sushi to enchiladas to chocolate truffles, and if you want something you don’t see on the buffet, you can ask them to whip some up for you. You can sit wherever you like, with whoever you like, and change seats several times if you want. You can return to the buffet to try different things multiple times. However, it’s your job to pick the food you want and your responsibility to bring it to your table. There are helpful staff members available to give you a hand if you need one, but you have to get up and find them and ask them questions. If you just sit at your table and wait, you’re going to starve.</p>

<p>So there’s no way to say which is better for you without knowing your personality. I felt stifled and bored at an LAC, and I had a much better time constantly trying out new things at a university. [snipped]"</p>

5

<p>I completely disagree with the comments made my monydad above. The majority of students who apply to selective LAC’s such as Kenyon know exactly what they are signing up for and can’t wait to join the close knit communities advertised on the websites. Here are a few of the points I have problems with: </p>

<p>“2) she does an internship, or study abroad, in a major city or larger school, comes back and is from that point forward completely bored with the setting and size of her school. She finds the combination of a small school in a small town is lethal.”</p>

<ul>
<li>Small LAC’s offer you the chance to study pretty much anywhere in the world for a few months to a year and have it count towards your degree (without counting towards your gpa). Your financial aid is transferred and you end up having the adventure of a lifetime that most students only dream of. I studied abroad in Buenos Aires for a semester and could have continued to study abroad for an additional semester had I not missed my Kenyon friends so much. </li>
</ul>

<p>“4) Some classes with too few students to have intelligent discussion, or not be embarrassing.”</p>

<p>This makes no sense, an intelligent discussion can be had between any number of people. I have taken classes at Kenyon that range in size from 4 students (advanced spanish) to 50 students (intro psych), and you’ve guessed it, the class with 4 students was by far my favorite. At a big university there is no way you would be receiving Spanish tuition at such a personal level and improving at an equally fast rate. </p>

<p>“7) Since no TA, decides to take up the alleged LAC advantage by asking the Prof. for help. He proceeds to put a question on the exam in the exact area he saw that she was weak on.”</p>

<p>This is something I have never experienced as I have found that visiting my Professor’s office hours before tests/exams has often left me with a much clearer sense of what will be tested and how to approach the material at hand. Normally at LAC’s the Professor appreciates that you have taken the time to ask for extra help and will give this help willingly, office hours have saved my grade many a time. Perhaps the Prof. only tested this material after your daughter struggled with it because he believed she would not have left his office without a full understanding of the topic? </p>

<p>“At large intro classes at top LACs they use less-qualified undergrads as TAs.” - At what schools and for which classes? I have only ever seen this for languages where students who are fluent in another language provide extra tuition outside of regular class time. </p>

<p>I certainly don’t think a tier 1 LAC is better than a tier 1 University or vice versa but I think it is important to understand that most students only apply to one or the other because they already know which would be a good fit for them. At a liberal arts college the small number of students are bonded by their commitment to the school and to their peers; the majority of these students wouldn’t trade their college experience for anything other than the one they have, myself included. Hope this helps.</p>

6

<p>

Bryn Mawr has undergraduate TAs for many intro and intermediate-level science courses.</p>

7

<p>Totally agree with College43022. Usually, a well-informed student who choses a small LAC college does so knowing what they’re getting into. In our experience, it’s nothing like what monydad describes. Generally speaking, the students at Kenyon that I’ve met haven’t encountered any of those particular issues. I also agree that while one is not “better” than the other, they certainly are different.</p>

<p>And again, I don’t really understand this:</p>

<p>“4) Some classes with too few students to have intelligent discussion, or not be embarrassing.”</p>

<p>I think a class that consists of 2 engaged, bright students can carry on quite an intelligent discussion!!</p>

8

<p>"The majority of students who apply to selective LAC’s such as Kenyon know exactly what they are signing up for and can’t wait to join the close knit communities advertised on the websites. "</p>

<p>Yes of course, but as per D1 if it doesn’t work out as they anticipated there will be no place to turn to. Everything I posted happened to D1, whether it happened to you or not, it can happen at such a place because it did. </p>

<p>"At what schools and for which classes? "</p>

<p>“Bryn Mawr has undergraduate TAs for many intro and intermediate-level science courses.”</p>

<p>I’m guessing many of them do. </p>

<p>quotes rom elsewhere on CC:</p>

<p>"As I mentioned above, undergraduates do serve as TA’s at Williams. I was one, for 3 different courses. "</p>

<p>“Amherst uses TAs to lead conversational language sessions, and I would bet that TAs are used in basically all the other capacities mentioned just as much at Amherst, Swat, Williams, etc, as at Dartmouth, or at least, nearly as much.”</p>

<p>"So here is a note from the Dean of the Faculty at Williams about the appointment of Teaching Assistants.</p>

<p>Office of the Dean of the Faculty Teaching Assistants [link not good anymore]</p>

<p>And if you google “teaching assistants Williams College”, you’ll find all sorts of interesting people!</p>

<p>You’ll notice that at Williams, undergraduate teaching assistants can even do up to 15% of the grading (something I doubt you’d ever see at Dartmouth). "</p>

<p>“[snipped]Anyway, the notion that there are no TAs at Williams is simply untrue, and that the TAs at Dartmouth are older, more experienced, and pursuing graduate degrees in the subjects they TA goes without saying.”</p>

<p>Along same lines as above, I just googled “teaching assistant” and some college names, I found relevant entries from: Oberlin, Colgate, Smith, Wesleyan. I don’t care to do them all. Some other schools probably use different names for them.</p>

9

<p>Undergraduate TAs at liberal arts college, such as Amherst, Wesleyan, Williams, etc. shouldn’t be compared to graduate TAs at research universities. Undergrad TAs often took the class the previous year or semester, and are more of “peer helper” than actual “teaching assistant.” Because it’s at an LAC, the professor is still quite accessible. The TA isn’t there instead of the professor (like at a university) but more as an additional resource.</p>

10

<p>“Additional resources” that: do grading, “lead conversational language sessions” (you’re claimiing that the prof is sitting there while the TA is doing that???), …</p>

11

<p>monydad while you are claiming that there are TAs at LACs that are there instead of profs then at big universities what do they do other than take the place of the prof. At LACs there may be undergraduate students doing a TA job but that is only to assist the prof while he or she is helping other students or doing another activity. With TAs, students are being taught the entire class through a peer student as opposed to a prof.</p>

12

<p>It pays to look before you leap, I guess. Cliches fly in all directions. To the original poster, generally, to paraphrase Sam Massabini as he puts it to Harold Abrams, it’s the colleges that should do the asking, not the teachers. There are many places to teach and life lasts a good long time, or it is forgotten. I wouldn’t worry about the profiles overly much. Good teachers, like good students, find their butter where they can get it. Colleges and universities are almost always overrated. Cheers.</p>

13

<p>Good post, pennypac. I can’t agree with monydad. I’m sorry HIS daughter changed her opinion about LAC vs. large university. I don’t see where his daughter’s change of heart affects mine or any other student. </p>

<p>Again, I graduated from three large universities (B.S., MBA, JD). One was private; the other two public. I never considered an LAC. In retrospect, I wish I had gone that route. To this day, I have few friends from my time in large universities. I was too busy studying and working my way through school. I had no scholarship offers, no grants, and no money from my parents. It was loans and sweat equity. I wanted better for my kids. It’s all a matter of what fits one’s personality and aspirations.</p>

<p>My D turned down Cornell and a bunch of other schools, including other universities, despite the advantages of the larger schools. She could’ve gone to Lehigh or Penn State’s main campus, the school the Wall Street Journal ranked as the number 1 favorite school of corporate recruiters. She would’ve graduated top 10% and had recruiters fighting over her. She knew that because I enlighted her about the possibilities, but it’s not her. She wants no part of corporate America. She could care less about football and parties, and wants no part of Greek life or an English 101 class with 1,000 students (Penn State), which a tour guide admitted could easily happen because it happened to her. That’s right–1,000. She has declared zero interest in study abroad. She loves her small classes.</p>

<p>She vastly preferred the LACs she visited over the universities. Her plan: graduate high in her class from the LAC of her choice, go to Harvard, Penn, or U of Chicago for a PhD. She’s extremely happy with her decision.</p>

14

<p>I don’t know about agreeing or not. It seems it depends on the kid. I am glad monydad spelled out the cons of LAC. I do apprecaite hearing the other side of LAC story as my D considers where to go. She hasn’t decided anything, rural or urban, big or small, near or far. His comment gives me verbal tools to look into.</p>

15

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</p>

<p>You have to be kidding me: “Some other schools probably use different names for them.” Come on, monydad, you’re better than that. The term can mean different things at different schools.<br>
And implying that some colleges are disguising their TAs is kind of silly.</p>

<p>My D2 at Oberlin has yet to experience a class with a TA, and I doubt if she will. Lab science courses are not on her agenda for her four years because they are irrelevant to her career aspirations. And you can’t argue the difference in educational opportunity between 1,000 kids in a freshman English class at Penn State and 16 in a similar class at an LAC.</p>

16

<p>They are called “Teaching Fellows” at Harvard, e.g., not “Teaching Assistants”. If they do that at Harvard, then I imagine they might go by other names at some other colleges as well, so one might keep that in mind when googling for them. That’s all I meant. They can call them whatever they want, I was not implying that the use of a different name was some sort of sinister plot to avoid detection, if that’s what you inferred.</p>

<p>I don’t know what goes on at Penn state. My D2 took English courses at her LAC, and also at her subsequent university, and preferred the courses at the university.</p>

17

<p>definition of a ■■■■■ - someone who drops in on a forum, asks a question that can’t possibly be answered with any degree of competence ON THAT FORUM and then disappears for three months. :&lt;/p>