<p>So I have read The Colleges that Change Lives (and similar things) and in general I can see how small classes and professors who are focused on teaching rather than research/grad students would be a good thing for undergrad students. </p>
<p>But I can see how even at a university, a student could find those same things. Probably not in Bio 101 but possibly in upper level classes and grad classes (if the school allows undergrads to enroll). </p>
<p>For a student who does care about having those small classes and professor connections, is an LAC always (almost always? usually?) the best route? With slightly more than a month to decide, what questions should this student be asking about the schools (LACs and universities) that are now choices? And besides these considerations (class size and professor connections) what other differences would be important to consider?</p>
<p>With rare exceptions, liberal arts colleges only offer liberal arts majors. (I know this is obvious, but people tend to forget.) If you think you might want to major in something else, such as business or engineering, a liberal arts college is not the place for you (although a small school that specializes in business or technical subjects might be).</p>
<p>If you want to do research as part of your major, you might be better off at a university because that’s where most of the research is done. But check out the research possibilities at liberal arts colleges that interest you, too. Sometimes, opportunities are available.</p>
<p>Also, if your potential major is an uncommon one, such as Classics or an obscure foreign language, you might be better off at a university because the variety of classes would be larger, and the size of the classes would still be small (because few people study these subjects). On the other hand, if you like small classes but plan to major in a popular subject, such as political science, psychology, or economics, you are better off at the liberal arts college.</p>
Not necessarily. At larger Us these opportunities are sometimes not available to undergrads.</p>
<p>It really depends on individual schools, and on individual students. </p>
<p>You are pretty much guarantied a close relationship with your profs at LAC. You will usually have to work much harder to get similar attention at a large U.</p>
<p>If you are very advanced in your area of study, you might find LAC class offering insufficient, so you might prefer a research U where you can move on to graduate level classes eventually.</p>
<p>An important difference: LACs generally have much more limited curricular offerings. Very few offer engineering, for example. Very few offer more exotic disciplines like linguistics. Most offer just 2-4 foreign languages, typically only the most commonly taught. And even in core humanities and social science fields like classics or anthropology, most LACs will have only 2-3 faculty and very few courses beyond the intro level. They’ll by and large do fine with popular majors like English, history, poli sci, econ, psych, and biological sciences. I think one can get an excellent basic liberal arts education at a good LAC, but there won’t be as many opportunities for your academic interests to take off in less commonly traveled directions.</p>
<p>That said, I think prospective students shouldn’t place too much emphasis on any particular major in selecting a college (unless they’re determined to study something that requires the full four years, like engineering or undergrad business). Many students don’t know what they want to study at the outset, and even among those who think they know, most end up changing their minds at least once. I think the process of exploration and discovery of a variety of academic disciplines is a good and healthy thing. Just be aware that if you choose an LAC, your range of choices will be somewhat more limited. For many people, it’s still a good choice.</p>
<p>Some possible advantages of Universities:
More classes within majors
More majors offered
More graduate level courses
More professors (especially in the sciences) who published in peer respected journals (my husband, a biologist doing says he can’t think of one biologist who does work he’s interested in that is not in a university or med school)</p>
<p>Some possible Disadvantages of universities:
You may have more lectures (personally I loved lecture classes)
You may have breakout sessions taught by grad students
You may have math or language classes taught by grad students
You may get lost in the crowd
You may have a bigger library right on campus</p>
<p>Some possible Advantages of LACs:
You may have teachers who are more interested in teaching than research
You are more likely to be able to do research for profs because you won’t be competing with grad students
You may have more smaller classes</p>
<p>Some possible Disadvantages of LACs:
You may run out of courses to take
You may not find the major you want
You may feel like there aren’t enough other students around
If you don’t match the dominant campus culture you may have more difficulty finding your tribe
You are more likely to be in an isolated rural location</p>
<p>Great list in post #5. Make it libraries- plural. Being taught by grad students in a lab or discussion session can be good, and less formal/intimidating than with the professor. The TA can interpret things a student didn’t quite get from the professor and offer another viewpoint. Having many more course offerings is a definite plus, as well as exposure to more professors in one’s major. More likely to get differing viewpoints among professors when they are a larger group. Chances to see what grad students do if you are headed in that direction. Students do get the smaller classes in the upper level courses and there is overlap in grad/undergrad course availability for challenges.</p>
<p>A large school is really a collection of smaller units, just as any large city is a collection of neighborhoods, no need to be intimidated by size. A student gets an advisor and learns how to manage the system to their benefit, it is no less personal for an individual- students get to know their part of the whole. I would rather have a campus with much more than I could absorb/take advantage of than one where I knew every aspect of by the time I graduated.</p>
<p>My son graduated from a large university, where he majored in a very popular subject, computer science. My daughter is currently a student at a large university, majoring in a very popular subject, economics. One of my kids managed to personalize the large university experience; the other did not. It’s a function of personality. Some people can do it (and want to do it); others can’t or don’t want to.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t count on advisors to overcome the potentially impersonal experience of a large department in a large university. My daughter met the faculty advisor that she was assigned to when she entered her university exactly once. He was her advisor for three semesters, but she never saw him again. Since then, she has been admitted to her major and has been assigned to a new advisor. That happened almost a full semester ago, but she has yet to meet her advisor. (I suppose she could ask for an appointment with him if she wanted to, but she has no particular desire to do so.) My son did not have a faculty advisor; advising in his department was done by full-time advisors who were not faculty members. He did not acquire a faculty member who acted in an advisory role to him until he became involved in undergraduate research. If he had not become involved in research, he would never have had anything resembling a faculty advisor.</p>
<p>Mathmom, why is the library a disadvantage?</p>
<p>^^ mathmom,
I agree with almost everything you say, but I wouldn’t list “bigger library right on campus” as a DISadvantage of a university. IMO the more ample library facilities and collections of major universities are a huge plus. Also, university libraries usually have later hours than LAC libraries which often close at 5 on weekends—OK for most weekends, perhaps, but not for that weekend when you want to bury yourself in a major research paper.</p>
<p>^LOL. obviously the library ended up in the wrong list!</p>
<p>I went to a medium large university, but was in a tiny major and felt I had the best of both worlds, I don’t think I would have enjoyed it as much if I’d been in one of the really popular majors, but my friends in those majors seemed happy enough. I knew most of the professors in my department by name, had to do a senior thesis, and most of the classes in my major were small.</p>
This is a myth. Not everyone will take undergrads but there are generally tons of opportunities, and often these can be paid. Every investigator I know (and I know alot of them) has undergrads in the lab. Students at LACs can get the same experiences during summers but they will not have the same continuity. (I have a Carleton student this summer - because she played HS soccer with my D).</p>
<p>^ I was going to say that, too. I suspect mathmom just put it under the wrong heading.</p>
<p>In fact, the university advantage is that not only is there a bigger library right on campus, with longer hours, but there are usually a whole bunch of satellite libraries also right on campus where you can hide away when you want to work and not see your friends.</p>
<p>I would urge mathmom to correct her list and turn it into a shortcut, so that it can be dropped effortlessly into the seven or eight threads a week to which it is completely relevant.</p>
<p>Another LAC issue, related to, but not exactly the same as, running out of classes to take: The professor with whom you most want to work may go on leave the year you most want to work with him, and the courses you most want to take may not be offered that year.</p>
<p>And this from the students’ perspective: Because your LAC’s basketball team isn’t Division I, many people whose opinion ought to be irrelevant to you will never have heard of it, and will assume that there’s something wrong with you that you had to go there.</p>
<p>And a university disadvantage: If you break the law on campus, you are more likely to be arrested by real police and charged as an adult.</p>
<p>Good list from Mathmom. But I also want to point out that there seems to be almost universal agreement that no matter whether your school is large or small, the goal is to get into the smaller classes, which is harder to do in a large school-especially in the popular majors like econ or psych or bio. Those huge intro classes ensure that you are an unknown for most of your first year and possibly first two years-unless you are able to skip right into advanced classes. You may have a great prof in your lecture classes and learn a lot, and the discussion in your section with the TA afterwards may be helpful, but if you need letters of recommendation for grad school, you are going to have to work at it in your junior and senior years (when you just might want to study abroad). For those with initiative and a clear sense of direction, it works fine. For many, they get the basic education, but not the mentoring which is so critical to some careers.</p>
<p>I’m not so sure about this. At most major universities I’m familiar with, the university has its own police force, and in many cases they are deputized by the local police department and consequently have full arrest powers, etc., including the power to arrest anyone on (or sometimes within a few blocks of) the university campus, whether or not that person is affiliated with the university. The campus police also usually have exclusive jurisdiction on university property, unless they specifically request assistance from the regular city police. So to that extent I suppose you could say the campus cops ARE “the real police.” But I’ve always assumed universities make these arrangements not only because they want to provide a larger police presence than they’d typically get from the city, but also because they want to maintain discretion to decide when to press formal legal charges against students and/or university personnel, and when to handle matters internally and administratively.</p>
<p>Indeed, it might be just the opposite of the way JHS suggests. I think in some cases the campus security personnel at smaller colleges are NOT deputized and do NOT have exclusive jurisdiction over criminal acts occurring on campus, and consequently it may be MORE likely that a public police force will be the one deciding whether to press legal charges against a student who breaks the law on campus.</p>
<p>Also, I am always puzzled by the ‘running out of classes’ that people fear will occur at a LAC. Assuming your goal is to get a reasonably broad liberal arts education-not just take coursework in your specific major or field-I can’t imagine anyone running out of courses. Even with a trimester system and 4 classes per trimester, thats still only 48 classes in 4 years-of which probably half are filled with courses required by your major and your distribution requirements. That leaves 24 classes for anything else you are interested in. Add a semester abroad, and you have even fewer slots to fill. I have way more than 24 things I’m interested in learning more about and I don’t think that’s unusual.
In fact, my biggest regret as an adult is that there are so many more courses I wish I could have taken when I was an undergraduate-it might have taken me in other directions.</p>
<p>MathildaMae, welcome to the CC LAC vs Uni : “In Your Face in Cyberspace Part XX”. Although this one is quite mild. ;)</p>
<p>It depends on the kid, the kid’s plans and personality, and the specific schools involved. Generalizations generally aren’t worth spit.</p>
<p>Some kids would do well at either. Some would do better at one or the other. The considerations listed may or not be true at the schools/programs under scrutiny. Research. Visit. Discuss. Decide. Good luck.</p>
<p>FWIW, my science research nerd female is quite content at her LAC and has way more classes she wants to take than slots to take them. As she did her senior schedule :eek: (can that be right?) this week she was horrified that she was having to choose between classes she loved, and always intended to take , with no UG chance to take them again.</p>
<p>MathildaMae - To have the best of both worlds; consider small to medium size universities like Rice, Emory and WashU. Small classes, close interaction with profs combined with extensive selection of majors and research opportunities. You very much get the feeling of a LAC combined with the resources of a university.</p>
<p>To add to mathmom’s list, my D transferred from a large public to a mid-sized school (5k undergrads) and she found that one disadvantage of the smaller school was that rather than having several sections of a class to choose from, a course is only offered at one time. This has made scheduling more difficult as each semester she has a “must take” course, and naturally it always conflicts with other classes that she’d like to take.</p>
<p>This is something that I copied from a poster many years ago, and I think it’s an interesting way to look at differences between a LAC and university:</p>
<p>"I spent half my college career at each: Bryn Mawr College (with lots of classes at Haverford & Swarthmore) and Harvard College. Here’s the best way I’ve come up with of explaining the difference as far as the student experience:</p>
<p>A good LAC is like a formal sit-down restaurant. Helpful waiters lead you to a booth, bring you the menu and explain the options available. There are several choices for each course, and each one will be nicely prepared and brought directly to your table. It’s very safe and cosy, and you’re unlikely to be surprised or disappointed by anything you order. But if you want something that’s not on that menu – or if you don’t like the people you’re seated with – you’re just out of luck.</p>
<p>A good university is like the midnight buffet on a cruise ship. There are literally thousands of choices, from sushi to enchiladas to chocolate truffles, and if you want something you don’t see on the buffet, you can ask them to whip some up for you. You can sit wherever you like, with whoever you like, and change seats several times if you want. You can return to the buffet to try different things multiple times. However, it’s your job to pick the food you want and your responsibility to bring it to your table. There are helpful staff members available to give you a hand if you need one, but you have to get up and find them and ask them questions. If you just sit at your table and wait, you’re going to starve.</p>
<p>So there’s no way to say which is better for you without knowing your personality. I felt stifled and bored at an LAC, and I had a much better time constantly trying out new things at a university. Conversely, I had friends at Bryn Mawr who loved the feeling of being taken care of and knowing everyone, and would have been totally lost and lonely at a university."</p>
This is not exclusive to a Uni. Many LAC’s are quite creative, too. Inter-disciplinary majors, self-designed majors, custom classes, independent study are all quite the norm at some LAC’s.</p>
<p>After all those years on College Confidential, this type of threads still produce the same kind of half-truths, idle speculation, and outright wishful thinking.</p>
<p>For starters, are all the 3,000 or 4,000 schools that offer tertiary education fitting in nice little defining packages? Are all the large state universities the … same? Is Clinton’s University of Minnesota immediately comparable to Duke or Stanford? Are the opportunities for research similar at Smith, Wellesley, or Barnard? And how does Barnard compare to … next door Columbia when it gets to opportunities? Can anyone really explain the differences between a school such as Wharton (part of Penn) and a LAC that specializes in Economics AND Finance? Oops, I forgot we are supposed to think that avenues such as Finance or Accounting are hardly part of the realm of LACs!</p>
<p>What else is there to add? Small libraries at LACs? Please tell that to the Smithies! When looking at libraries there is more than the number of volumes, the real question is about the quality of offerings and if books are … available! Funny how things could change when speaking about volumes … per capita! </p>
<p>Want to discuss availability of classes? Does a program book as thick as the Los Angeles’ phone book ensures that the classes one wishes will be available? Hardly! Problems start when reputed professors are absent for semesters on end as they pursue the mighty research dollars and required publishing duties. Here’s a reality: the pendulum swings both ways. Every school is offering a set of compromises and none have a perfect model. Some might like or even prefer the lecture+TA sessions; others might actually want to see their dollars paying for instruction from trained and competent teachers.</p>
<p>At the end, it is EXTREMELY important to go beyond the short (and always misleading) attempts to separate LACs from other universities. One NEEDS to compare schools and really kick the tires by exploring the course offerings and the faculty. Not all LACs are the same; just as not all research universities are the same. While comparing two schools, it could happen that the list offered by Mathmom might work, but it is also possible that two different choices might yield a totally different outcome. </p>
<p>Caveat Emptor should be everyone’s motto, as well as understanding the natural bias of posters. After reading “composite” and generic lists, please ask the poster to provide EXAMPLES of schools he or she had in mind when writing the list.</p>
<p>I am not even sure if a valid comparidon exists between a “LAC” and University. The difference between individual schools can be very extreme. Possibly not with LACs, as I am not as familiar with them. But, there is no way that you can compare the experience at a small to medium size university (Rice, Emory, Brandeis, WashU) to a large university. It would not surprise me if the same kind of significant differences existed between various LACs. I feel that the only valid comparisons are between specific individual schools. It is not “one size fits all” when it comes to schools (LACs or universities). What is right for one may not be right for someone else. The best way to determine the best fit is to visit the candidate schools and see where the student feels most comfortable and thinks they will be most happy for 4 years of their life. This consideration should also include the financial aspect of attendance at a particular school.</p>