<p>Three years ago we went went through the college selection process with DD. We met with her counselor, identified a variety of schools and mapped out a 1 week driving tour. She walked onto the first campus of the tour - announced she was done looking as THIS is where she was going to go. Luckily the college agreed with her and it has been a very happy union.</p>
<p>Three years later....we begin the process with DS. As a HS Junior, he is clear (at this point) in wanting to pursue a physics. Without belaboring the point, this is a smart kid. He has a number of Phd's at local research think tanks on his email 'speed dial'. He will be spending the summer doing an internship at one of these places. He has been grilling several of his contacts regarding their undergrad experiences, suggestions and insights. His mentor made an unexpected (at least for me) statement recently - "go to UG where you can have a life and not be burned out at the end of 4 years because you never left the lab. If you graduate with your passion in tact you will be way ahead of the pack"</p>
<p>So, here sits mom who until a few days ago was quite clear on the fact that physics is obviously something one goes to a large research institution to pursue. After all, they have the means necessary to support all the interocetors, star trek transporters and honey I shrunk the kids labs and equipment one would need to for this area of pursuit. And so with the exception of a few very STEM specific LAC's (Harvey Mudd, CalTech, Olin) these types of institutions were never on our horizon. But...our trip changed this.</p>
<p>DS is attracted to a smaller environment - he liked Pomona and Occidental much better than for example UCLA or USC. And so we have been looking at other options. Here is my problem.... I am having a hard time letting go of the notion that for this discipline one must attend a large (many labs, lots of research $$) type of institution. </p>
<p>I'd love to hear from anyone who has experienced a LAC STEM program.</p>
<p>Our daughter went to Santa Clara University for her engineering degree. It’s not a LAC and it’s not a large research university. It is a “masters” university meaning that the highest degree given is a masters…and not in every discipline.</p>
<p>What was the advantage? The school clearly was there for the undergrads. THEY got to use the labs, do the research, work with the professors, do the special projects. They did NOT have to compete with the grad students to do so (as it happens SCU does have an engineering masters but the undergrads do not “compete” with them at all for opportunities within the university).</p>
<p>The classes were smaller, even the core courses. No large freshman “required” classes with 300 students. Our kid’s largest class had about 30 students in it. </p>
<p>I don’t really know anything about physics, but I do think there can be wonderful undergrad opportunities at some of these smaller schools whereby an undergrad can distinguish themselves.</p>
<p>And then the student can apply to fully funded PhD programs after their bachelors.</p>
<p>thumper; Oh I LOVE Santa Clara U and think it would be an amazing fit for DS. However, it is so intertwined with his current HS that he feels he wouldn’t make enough of a break from ‘that life’. Also, he wants to go a bit further from home.</p>
<p>It is meant to apply to women and minorities, but I would expect that their programs also are strong for male students. Several of the schools listed are top LACs (Williams, Colby, Colorado College, Davidson…)</p>
<p>What about “smaller” research universities? Maybe places like WashU or Emory that have a LAC feel, but still more access to research opportunities</p>
<p>My cousin’s husband attended Whitman College and did the 3/2 Cal Tech engineering degree. He said the same thing that your son’s mentors said. He felt like he got time and attention and specifically said he thought he was much more grounded in physics than his counterparts at Cal Tech. They were jealous of him, he said.</p>
<p>"DS is attracted to a smaller environment - he liked Pomona and Occidental "</p>
<p>Well, this is easy- have him apply to Harvey Mudd- which is part of the Claremont Consortium of college, which includes Pomona. That way he can have his cake- go to a top LAC -and eat it too- HM is one of the top STEM LACs in the county. He can also take non STEM classes at any of the other 4 colleges in the Consortium- including Pomona.</p>
<p>and I agree with the suggestion of Reed. But if he really loves Physics and is already doing summer research at a university he may be happiest at a place like Cal Tech University which has only 900 UG’s. That way he would have the opportunity to do research as well as be in a small college, and really find out if a career in Physics is something he wants to pursue. There are few benefits in my mind for a top science kid to going to a pure LAC, and give up the opportunity to take graduate level classes and do research during the year.</p>
<p>Reed, specifically, has a well-known and impressive physics program, with about 10-20 majors per year.</p>
<p>Swarthmore, rather uniquely, has its own 4-year accredited general engineering major, as well as physics and math. More than 25% of it students have STEM majors, although no department (other than Biology) has more than 10-20 majors/year. Swarthmore students also have access to classes and research projects at Penn, which is a 20-minute commuter train ride away. It’s not a completely smooth cross-registration program, but people do use it and it works OK for advanced students.</p>
<p>I was a science major at a liberal arts college and I am not sure that I would pursue the same path again. I had a wonderful experience with the personal attention I got from my professors, but I never got over the lack of resources. My college had no more than 5 computer science majors and less than 10 physics majors a year, so my peer group was small. The enrollment was reflected in the number of courses that were being offered. In lucky semesters, I had a choice of 2 out of 3 upper-level electives. In unlucky semesters I had no choice at all. Some of the lack of formal instruction was off-set by individual work with my professors, but that felt like a drop in the bucket. </p>
<p>My small college bubble eventually became suffocating enough that I spent most of my junior and senior years at a nearby research university. I joined a research group, attended seminars, audited graduate-level courses and I got to socialize with academically minded undergraduate and graduate students. And I was instantly much happier.</p>
<p>30 years ago I got my undergrad chemistry degree from one of those small research universities (5000 undergrads). It did have a reputation for excellent STEM departments.</p>
<p>It was definitely a mixed expereince, chemistry-wise. On the plus side, I had some fantastic science and math classes, with small class sizes and great teachers. However, the research side was deifintely a negative. Even though there were plenty of research opportunities available, the breadth and scope of those opportunities was spotty. For example, as a senior I was especially interested in a kind of organic chemistry research. We did have a professor doing research in that area - but she was on sabbatical my senior year and no one in the department was proficient in her area (or had enough funding to take me on.) </p>
<p>I did go to grad school in chemistry, where I found that my undergrad classwork more than prepared me for graduate school. However, compared to my fellow first-years, I did not have nearly the depth of lab experience that they got from their (usually) larger, better-funded schools…</p>
<p>Obviously, YMMV. However, to the OP: if I were your son and was really interested in a particular area or sub-specialty of physics, I’d make double sure that there are multiple avenues for that research at my LAC. It’s true that you don’t want to burn out, but you don’t want to rust either!</p>
<p>Just noting that I cross-posted with b@rium - and had very similar experiences at my small research university. Sometimes, a crtitical mass of other students and funding is very important…</p>
<p>If he liked Oxy, please remember they have a 3/2 with Cal Tech.</p>
<p>I normally do not like 3/2 programs because kids simply want to stay and graduate with their friends. However, the physical proximity between these 2 schools makes it an ideal program - Heck, you can still see your Oxy friends almost daily.</p>
<p>Claremont consortium is a top education choice IMO. I would ask specific questions to Mudd and Pomona to see the availability to cross register. I know Pomona limits the number of classes you may take outside of Pomona. </p>
<p>I am a graduate of a 2nd tier LAC and loved my experience. My alma mater has great equipment - not what a research U has, but darn close. Consider the student - I was not overly aggressive. I had far more hands on experience at a LAC with less resources than I would at a large U where I would have needed to be a top student to fight my way into the lab/research. You kid certainly would not fall into that category - He sounds like a lab rat no matter what. Keep in mind, many of the high end LACs do have quite a few undergrads publishing. Is this important to him?</p>
<p>I agree with the advice your son received, but will your son be happy with the “lesser” facilities? What does he want out of college? </p>
<p>College was the only time in my life that I lived “free” of responsibilities - no husband, no job, lots of free time. High School was busy from 7 am - 11 pm. After college was busy from 6 am - 10 pm. I will always be thankful for my “thinking” years. Some folks truly bloom when given the down time. Only your kid can decide if the less grind works for him.</p>
<p>Take a look at the course listings in physics and compare to the offerings at the big universities. Make note of whether the complete set of junior/senior level physics courses (mechanics, electromagnetism, quantum mechanics, statistical/thermal physics, advanced lab, electives) are offered, and how frequently they are offered (some courses at small schools may be offered only once every two years).</p>
<p>Some small LACs have decent offerings in physics, while others are rather limited.</p>
<p>If the student is extremely advanced in the subject, consider the availability of graduate level courses.</p>
<p>Son does not want a CalTech or Mudd for precisely the intensity and singularity of focus issue. Pomona is still of interest. He is in contact with an Oxy Junior who always ‘knew’ they wanted the 3/2 program and then at the last minute decided they do not want to leave Oxy. In fact this student states that usually around 20 ppl plan on this program and at the last minute less than 5 actually do it.</p>
<p>Although kid is a bit of a lab rat (thanks to dad who pretty much has an EE lab in our garage) he is also into technical theater, designing LED lighted clothing, gardening and other rather unrelated stuff. So, I don’t think he’d be very happy spending a disproportionate part of his UG life in a florescent lighted lab.</p>
<p>In deciding between LACs and Unis for science consider his developmental needs. Scientists benefit from strong writing & presentation skills and ways of thinking besides analysis. Students coming out of strong high school programs may not need the liberal arts piece as much as others. For my own D who will study chemistry, LACs are a great choice because she still needs to develop in many areas.</p>
<p>Caltech is not a LAC. It’s a teeny giant research U. And last time I checked, Olin didn’t actually have a Physics degree.</p>
<p>
For your son, I’d be scared to put him in most LACs for fear there aren’t enough advanced classes. How many freshman-and-sophomore-level classes is he likely to place out of? Make sure there are at least 20 more electives (my numbers, not an accepted rule of thumb) than he’d have the time to take so that when he gets to the upper division physics electives, he can find stuff that interests him and he hasn’t already done.</p>
<p>
[proudMomBias]Mudd is one of the top STEM schools bar none in the country - not limited to LACs. Many incoming Mudders are significantly more advanced than most other Mudders in some area, and they handle it well. Even though there is an intensity there, it seems the students are pretty happy. I’d suggest you at least research it and consider it. It has the smallness of a LAC, and while the research is likely less well-funded than that at Caltech, there’s plenty to go around and great profs to work with. I personally think your son belongs EXACTLY there because of his extra interests and Physics passion. When we visited, nobody was too busy to talk to us, and most talked about how happy they were. They have lots of other interests.[/proudMomBias]</p>
<p>I’d also suggest looking into Rice, a very small research university. When we visited there, it was amazing how happy and research-involved the students were. Just incredible.</p>