<p>I had a thread about "strong undergraduate English programs" and then a thread about two schools I knew less about -- Vassar and Bowdoin.</p>
<p>As my D and I are becoming more informed, and as we (mostly her) think things through, we're becoming increasingly excited about her list. Since she's a prospective undergraduate English major with teaching and scholarly aspirations, but also with a lot of creative ability in writing and theatre ... plus with an expressed desire to perhaps continue with biology or even psychology ... we are looking for a mix of strong overall schools to apply to (with the "winner" hopefully selected based on particulars of the school and particulars of the financial package, if any).</p>
<p>If our list is incomplete in any way, it now seems that she might want to add one more LAC that resembles Vassar (top overall school, not "so" out of the way, and with perhaps a little leaning towards the creative and arts side of the spectrum, rather than the pre-professional).</p>
<p>Oberlin comes immediately to mind if your daughter is open to the midwest. Very liberal and creative like V&W and very intellectual based on the number of their grads who go on to a PhD. By this measure, Oberlin is at the very top overall and/or near the top in essentially every discipline.</p>
<p>Our son visited and was accepted. I found it to have a wonderful atmosphere as did our son. My wife was literally in tears with the thought of him going there. Because it is so unique prospective students needs to visit and do their due diligence.</p>
<p>Wesleyan and Vassar have a huge overlap in admissions, so I'd definitely second that. My D did not have a lot of contact with the English dept, but her English major firends seemed very happy there, and the creative writing classes are supposed to be excellent. If you go to their website, to Academics, then Wesmaps, you can see the list of courses for each semester, along with substantial descriptions. They'll give you a flavor of the department.</p>
<p>Reed
Mt. Holyoke
Smith
Bryn Mawr
Macalester
Scripps
Connecticut C
Trinity C (more middle of the road politically than most of the others)
Carleton
Oberlin
Grinnell (although rural, it is an amazing place that is more diverse, and has more East Coasters than many of the other schools; one of the few rural schools I considered.)</p>
<p>There are many others, but I'm more familiar with these. Hope this helps. :)</p>
<p>The F-only school idea has absolutely no chance with my D. And I'm much too smart to try and fight that battle. Most of the other schools are either on our radar screen, or, she's not interested in (for one reason or another).</p>
<p>As an aside, with a little midwestern provincialism here . . .
I'm absolutely convinced that both Carleton and Grinnell would be SO much more well-known if they were located 1000-1200 miles due East. They are both amazing schools. In my D's case, she's looking forward to the opportunity to experience a different part of the country. She's considering Michigan, Northwestern, and Wash-U for various reasons, but the only other midwestern school that might make her app list is Oberlin.</p>
<p>A few more additions to Blaineko's excellent list: Kenyon, Skidmore, Wheaton in Mass., Whitman College (Washington state - has one of the most active theater departments of any LAC in the country). She really should consider Kenyon if she's considering Oberlin - I'd say it's actually stronger in both English and theater than Oberlin.</p>
<p>Amherst/Williams/Swarthmore/Wesleyan are like four overlapping circles of the clover leaf. They are distinctly different, but have many similar characteristics in ambience, academics and student body. The only way to really get a feel for which is "the right one" is to visit all four. They each suffer from relentless stereotyping. Don't be deterred by what you hear. As a general statement, the positives are true, the negatives are subjective.</p>
<p>All top tier LACs emphasize verbal skills and therefore have strong English departments. Creativity and pure intellectualism is more intangible (hey, these are teenagers, not monks) but you'll find smart, curious kids at all of the LACs mentioned.</p>
<p>If theater is a must, then I'd rank Williams and Skidmore at the top of the Northeast list, but again all LACs have a dramatic bent to some degree and there are plenty of opportunities to be involved in theater.</p>
<p>What about Brown? Also, was thinking maybe Barnard - altho all women, it's really just an extension of Columbia. On the easier-to-get-into scale, what about Sarah Lawrence? Bard?</p>
<p>I'm with Carolyn on Kenyon over Oberlin for your Ds specific interests. If she was a musician or budding scientist I would go the other way.</p>
<p>I'd give Middlebury a good look, too. I wouldn't say it is a lot like Wesleyan and Vassar, but again, for your Ds specific interests it's an excellent option.</p>
<p>I don't know where you and Carolyn get the notion that Kenyon's program in English is stronger than Oberlin's, though I've heard it before on this board. I've been teaching in the field for 28 years, and among college professors, Oberlin's English department is thought of as second to none. Kenyon's English and creative writing programs were strong back in the 1940s and 1950s, where a lot of their reputation was built on the strength of writers like Robert Lowell and James Wright. But those days are long gone, and in terms of current faculty and programs, Oberlin is clearly Ohio's strongest LAC for English and creative writing (and, with Carleton and Grinnell, one of the three strongest in the Midwest).</p>
<p>I'm sure that various specific arguments can be made favoring either Kenyon or Oberlin for English. Oberlin has a more intellectual culture overall and all of its departments are strong. Given school size and culture, I'd guess more Oberlin majors go on to PhDs. However, despite having 1000 fewer students, Kenyon has an English faculty about the same size as Oberlin's and there are some very interesting activities available to English majors, including a real opportunity for students to get involved with the Kenyon Review. </p>
<p>Thinking more about both schools, I guess I would make a decision based on a visit, the general campus culture and makeup of the student bodies, not on a departmental comparison. And I certainly would not be shocked if a student picked Carleton or a northeastern LAC strong in English over both Ohio schools.</p>
<p>I agree that this is a case where departmental comparison would be far less helpful than school cultures. Both Kenyon and Oberlin have superb English departmetns by all reports, but my impression of their cultures is that Oberlin is far mor Wes/Vassar like than is Kenyon.</p>
<p>FWIW, I spoke with a Theater major during my recent visit to Oberlin. The student absolutely loves it; reports opportunities for study and performance are numerous. This student was a top HS student in Ohio; presumably had a choice. </p>
<p>The English program there looks quite highly regarded from everything I've found. The school is well balanced, having students with many academic interests, not just slanted to English and Theater. It's also quite beautiful there in the Fall, I've learned.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Amherst/Williams/Swarthmore/Wesleyan are like four overlapping circles of the clover leaf. </p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Actually, I would substitute Pomona for Wesleyan in that clover leaf. To me, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and Pomona are the four that share the two most defining characteristics -- admissions selectivity and endowment size. </p>
<p>There is a tremendous amount of overlap among these four schools. Yet, each has a fairly well-defined personality. To me, the hardest to characterize is Amherst -- in large part, because it seems to have undergone the most real significant transformation of the four over the last two decades. With very aggressive affirmative action programs, it seems to have moved from being perhaps the most "preppie" of the bunch to a degree of diversity that is very similar to Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Of course, both Williams and Amherst underwent a fundamental change in direction in the 1970s when they admitted women for the first time. Despite their stark geographic differences, I think Swarthmore and Pomona are the most similar of the four schools, a similarity that probably influenced mostly by the fact that they were both co-ed from the start, something that has a big impact on institutional culture. Both Williams and Amherst have a stronger "animal house" social scene and sports culture than Pomona and Swarthmore -- something that probably has its roots in the "boys club" traditions of the schools.</p>