Fair point about number of majors. It’s always good to be wary of attaching too much weight to any one statistic. It’s just awfully hard to know how to interpret sparse bits of anecdotal data (“I heard such and such a department is pretty good”) when it’s impractical to visit everywhere and form one’s own opinion. I find myself grasping for something quantitative to pre-filter the vast list of potential candidate schools down to something manageable, and that has its associated perils.
@rayrick - You made me curious about Davidson. What did you find that showed it offered a B.M. in Music? Everything I see on their website is the standard B.A. in music (not to downgrade that - a perfectly acceptable alternative - especially for a double major - but it’s not the subject of this thread.) http://catalog.davidson.edu/content.php?catoid=11&navoid=373 As far as I can tell Davidson offers B.A.'s and B.S.'s only. Once one accepts the idea that a BA in music might work - then there is an enormous range of schools from which to choose.
I was not actually the one who introduced Davidson into this thread as, indeed, they do not offer a B.M. @lots2do just mentioned them as part of a list of LAC’s (and other small-ish schools) with strong music departments, and we got off on a bit tangent about them, relative to the title of the thread.
This was the original post (or part of it): " It occurs to me that one (by no means perfect) metric by which one can gauge the extent of music offerings at a liberal arts college is whether or not they offer a Bachelor of Music. Is there any comprehensive list out there that indicates which LAC’s offer a B.M?"
I guess I didn’t understand the premise in the first place, though I tried to 
And then this: “A conservatory is not out of the question–my son is still figuring out what he wants. But I’m actually most interested in LACs that offer a rich range of musical opportunities that do not require a conservatory-level commitment. That means that if they do have a conservatory, I’m particularly interested in those (like Lawrence, and unlike Bard and Oberlin–not sure about Gettysburg/Sunderman) that allow non-majors (or at least non-performance majors) to study with the best teachers and participate in the top ensembles if they’ve got the chops to audition their way in.”
So I am a little confused. Most of your list and many of the suggestions do, in fact have conservatories (music school is another term used but same thing in practice).
So U. of Puget Sound and U. of the Pacific both have music schools (BM) . So do U. of Redlands, Hartt and Ithaca. St. Olaf does have both a BA and BM in their music department, without a conservatory on campus. College of Wooster has a BM, BA, bachelor’s in music ed and music ed in music therapy. I am not sure the latter two would be that different in term of opportunities for BA students versus BM students, but every college is different so it needs to be checked.
Basically, for the most part, music schools and conservatories that are part of or affiliated with an LAC will offer a BM. There are a few LAC’s that do not officially have a conservatory/music school and offer a BM as well as a BA in music, but I don’t see what difference it makes.
If your son does not want conservatory-level commitment, I think his best bet might be a school that does NOT have a conservatory/music school or a BM program. I think that is the reason for the tangent. From what you have written, the most logical suggestion list might be LAC’s with strong music departments and strong BA programs in music- or strong academic majors with access to excellent teachers (on or off campus) and extracurriculars. You could also look at BA programs with some performance aspect (for instance, Harvard has performance in some musicology or theory classes; Princeton has a performance certificate etc. Your son may not be interested in these schools, but there are equivalents out there among a possible list he would like.)
There is a book entitled “Creative Colleges” that lists all schools with good music programs (as well as dance, theater, art and writing). Peterson’s also has a guide.
One way to narrow things down is for your son to choose schools based on other criteria, such as size, location and vibe and then look at the music offerings.
In sum (I tend to be wordy) : I don’t think it is true, basically, that the presence of a BM is always the measure of a great music dept. There are some great BA programs. And if your son does not want to do a BM, then the presence of a BM program may detract from his own opportunities- but not always.
I think it can be a good idea to visit schools, honestly. A list of 10 is reasonable, and applying to 6 when music is involved- but that is personal opinion. Otherwise, the possibilities really are overwhelming.
No worries @compmom, there’s confusion because I’ve been confusing! This particular thread was one of a couple I got going, with the overall aim of identifying LAC’s with great music departments. I was just curious if there’s some archive out there that noted which schools offer a B.M. as one of several complimentary approaches to achieve that goal. I’m perfectly open to other suggestions of schools that have strong departments that do not offer a B.M., and my response to SpiritManager was not intended in any way to criticize those who offered such suggestions. By all means keep 'em coming! I just was trying to clarify the avenue by which Davidson ended up in the conversation, when it didn’t meet the criterion offered in the thread title.
Part of the reason my objectives seem a little wishy-washy is because my son’s criteria have been evolving. As recently as a couple months ago, he was pretty sure he wanted, at most, to double major in music in the context of a B.A. program. That stance made schools like Bard and Oberlin a less than ideal fit, because there’s a pretty stout wall between the conservatory offerings and the rest of the college at those schools. Now, he’s making noises about a B.M/B.A. double degree program, so those places are back on the table. I’m still partial to places like St. Olaf, where there’s room for a little more fluidity in one’s level of musical commitment, while still retaining access to great private instruction and great ensembles. We’ll see.
And I’ve also got no particular aversion to visiting schools – I think we’ve visited 9 already (some of which, in hindsight, were probably not the best use of our energy) – there’s just a limit to how much time and money we can devote to visits that involve a plane ride.
Thanks- that all makes sense. My daughter was unsure as well and so she applied to all the options and decided in late April With auditions involved, she kept the conservatories down to 4, and two college, but of course many do more.
The other factor, I think, is that your son is a horn player. I know kids who taken a general music major OR who major in something else entirely, and take a music history class they loved, sing in an a cappella group that travels abroad, take cello lessons, etc. etc, and enjoy- at an LACw/out a BM I think some of these LAC’s have very strong music departments even when there isn’t a performance aspect to the program. But not for horn (though there may be a great teacher available).
Good luck! It ain’t easy getting clarity but it will come.
Guilty! I was trying to be helpful suggesting @rayrick LACs and other schools primarily in the South and Southwest that don’t get much mention on the Music Major forum.
@compmom, not to hijack the thread but what do you mean about LACs that have strong music departments “but not for horn players”? I would think horn players would be in demand since they are needed for school’s orchestra and wind bands.
@lots2do My guess is @compmom was meaning that it could more difficult to find great horn professors with strong horn studios in BA programs than it would be to find strong strings or piano. Not to say they don’t exist, but one would need to contact the adjunct professors, and possibly have sample lessons to get a good feel. And the peer group could also be an issue. This is not at all to say one could not find a great liberal arts general music program for a top level horn player! Just that it might take a bit more research than going by a generic list of strong music departments.
Sorry, I meant that for performance for a horn player, a BM would be better. Shouldn’t post when I’m tired!
Sorry, I shouldn’t have posted when I was tired :). I was partly referring to post 6, and to the desire in this particular thread for a BM-level focus on performance. I described a few of the varied musical activities a student might be able to participate in a non-BM program, but a non -BM program will have 1/4-1/3 classes in music (history, theory, composition, ethnomusicology) rather than a focus on performance- not just for horn, but for any instrument. I have no idea whether teachers or extracurriculars would be limited for a horn player at an LAC- I would think not, but, as with the example of Clark cited by Rayrick, it should be checked at each school. Going to bed!
The main things I’m hoping for him are to find a great teacher, have access to high caliber ensembles that are satisfying to participate in, and for his environment to generally feel like a musically enriching and exciting place to be. I think he’s increasingly enthusiastic about taking a bunch of theory, aural skills, history, piano, etc., but it looks to me like one could do that in either a B.A. or a B.M. program. I think he’d like to have a meaningful option of pursuing music as a career when he’s through, and I don’t have a good sense of how important a B.M vs a B.A. is for that.
As far as options for horn, most LAC’s seem to at least have an adjunct horn prof, and most of them sound (on paper) like they’re probably pretty good. I like to be able to find videos of their orchestras and confirm that a) they sound pretty darned good, and b) they have a full horn section (it’s a definite red flag when they can only muster 2 or 3 horns from the entire student body). I wish more schools made it easy to find recordings of their orchestras – that’s been pretty hit or miss.
Personally, I’d be perfectly happy to see him in a B.A. program (and not pay for a 5th year) as long as he can say “My teacher is great and our orchestra is awesome!”. I think he’s still grappling with whether or not that’s enough for him.
One of the things that feels especially tricky about this music major business is that it’s one of the few areas of study where kids really need to commit right from the get-go. Plenty of kids go to college not being very clear what they intend to study, and, even if they think they are, plenty of them change their minds. With these B.M. vs B.A., conservatory vs non-conservatory decisions, kids have to have more clarity about their goals than we typically require of 17 year-olds. It’s tough.
He could also participate in top level youth ensembles outside of his school, if located in an urban area like NYC or San Francisco. For instance, top musical students at UC Berkeley and Stanford play in the San Francisco Symphony Youth Orchestra. He could also commute to an area for lessons, as well. Many students, not majoring in performance at their schools, commute to NYC to study with a top teacher - from Yale, Princeton, Vassar etc. He has a lot of different routes he could take. There are also threads on this forum discussing top orchestras.
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1621956-universities-with-strong-orchestras-even-if-non-music-major-p1.html
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1354916-what-colleges-have-the-best-orchestras-p1.html
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1748416-what-colleges-have-good-music-orchestra-programs.html
(I find searching for “College Confidential” “music major forum” and then with keywords on google, an easier way to search than through CC.)
Rayrick, this was the best post with specifics about what you/your son are looking for. As you have said, it will be very school-specific. You could contact music departments and ask. (I remember my daughter e-mailing Middlebury, which prompted an offer to find her a classical guitar teacher since there wasn’t one on staff!).
It sounds like a really good BA program would fit the bill if the extracurricular orchestra and ensembles meet your standards and a good teacher is available- which could be through the school or outside the school (city or conservatory nearby?).
With BA programs, also check how much of the coursework would be in music. For instance, at Harvard it is 50%, a quite high percentage of courses. And if there are any performance elements in theory or musicology classes, credit given for participation in ensembles or for lessons- all signs of support for instrumentalists I think.
Again strongly urge applications to both BM and BA programs (and double degree if he wants) if he is undecided. My daughter was undecided until April 30th of senior year
Thanks for all the help, everyone! @compmom, I think your suggestion is exactly what we’re gravitating towards. And I have a bone-deep empathy for the fret-til-the-deadline drama it sounds like you went through with your daughter! I’ve already been down this college selection road once with my eldest, and I think she finally had her moment of clarity on April 29th, after being pretty much a total wreck that final week.
Do you mind my asking where your daughter ended up? Sounds like she was at least considering LAC’s if she was sending letters to the likes of Middlebury.
I’ll PM you!
I hadn’t read this thread since I’m not the most knowledgeable on LACs but having just browsed through it and saw that St. Olaf is of interest I thought I would just mention one other in this region, Luther.
For serious music students in this region who are not considering far off schools, the 3 primary LAC music schools with good reputations (and good academics) are: Lawrence, St. Olaf and Luther. St. Olaf and Luther are more similar as they are big “choir” schools. So for vocalists with big voices, a choir school can be an issue. But I don’t think that would be a big issue for instrumentalist? Not sure though. From a few years ago, I remember some saying that at Luther the music productions are treated like football games - meaning they are the main event at the school. I know a few kids who have gone to all three LACs and have gone on to grad schools and/or professional performance in music.
Wow, lots of music going on at Luther, @bridgenail! Nice addition to the list.
So, for the sake of those who may stumble upon this thread in their future searches, here’s the full list so far of liberal arts colleges that offer a B.M. I’m going to give Rollins and Luther honorary status, since they clearly have huge music departments, even though they don’t actually offer a B.M. Some of these schools have a true conservatory and others do not. In the interests of keeping things consistent with the thread title, I’m going to leave off schools like Ithaca that are a bit too big to really qualify as an LAC, but I am going to include schools that are for all intents and purposes LACs, even though they may classify themselves as regional universities, instead (like Trinity U).
This next bit may be somewhat more controversial, but some future travelers may be looking, as we are, for schools that are pretty serious about academics as well. So as a very rough indicator of academic rigor, I’m also including the median math + critical reading SAT scores and 5 year grad rates of each school, as reported by princetonreview:
Bard 1280 74%
Concordia College ? ?
Depauw 1200 80%
Furman 1240 84%
Gettysburg 1280 83%
Lawrence U 1280 78%
Luther 1090 76%
Oberlin 1360 86%
U of the Pacific 1180 62%
U of Puget Sound 1220 75%
U of Redlands 1130 71%
Rollins 1190 70%
Southwestern U 1160 73%
St. Olaf 1260 88%
Stetson U 1170 60%
Susquehanna 1120 75%
Trinity U 1260 80%
Wheaton (IL) 1300 88%
Willamette 1200 75%
College of Wooster 1210 75%
All of the above (with the exception of Rollins and Luther) offer a B.M. Here’s a number of other LAC’s I’ve seen mentioned here or elsewhere as having strong music departments that do not offer a B.M.:
Williams
Vassar
Wesleyan
Brandeis
Skidmore
Davidson
Clark U
Hope someone finds that helpful!