Large vs. Small schools (Biology)

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I'm a junior in high school, planning to major in Biology on a Pre-med track. </p>

<p>I am trying to decide between large and small schools and how they will affect my undergrad performance and getting in to medical school. I like the idea of a smaller school (around 14,000 students) because the classes are smaller, and allows for more interaction with professors, giving you a better chance at letters of recommendation. </p>

<p>However, I've heard that larger schools are better in some ways, because there are more opportunities for research with the faculty, and offer more specialized classes. What do you guys think is better?</p>

<p>Also: what do you think about doing a Zoology concentration for Pre-med? Will this be looked down upon by medical schools? Thanks!</p>

2

<p>Do you mean 14,000 undergraduates + graduate students (combined)?
That would be typical of the Ivies and some other highly selective, private universities (where undergraduate enrollments tend to be in the 5K -10K range). Even in this size range, you may not get consistently small classes, and a consistently high level of interaction with professors, in a popular major such as biology. </p>

<p>For instance, Johns Hopkins University only has ~4700 full-time undergraduates on its Homewood campus. Here are the enrollment limits in some biology classes in Spring 2013:
General Biology II … 200 students
General Biology II Lab … 66 students
Cell Biology … 320 students
Stem Cells and the Biology of Aging and Disease …130 students
Developmental Biology … 300 students</p>

<p>If small classes and interaction with professors are high priorities, you may want to look at liberal arts colleges (LACs), where undergraduate enrollments (and total enrollments, because they have few or no graduate programs) generally are under 3K students. </p>

<p>Pre-med students can major in anything. Art History, if you like.
As for big v. small, it’s a matter of personal preference. Both have pros and cons. Personally, I think the value of small classes and greater student-faculty engagement tend to outweigh the advantages of greater course selection. However, you may not find robust zoology programs at very many small LACs.</p>

3

<p>For small classes, you can check class sizes and enrollment limits in the on-line class schedules of various schools. Be aware that majoring in biology is popular at many schools, as is doing pre-med (majoring in biology is not required to do pre-med, but there is substantial course overlap; about half of applicants to medical schools majored in biology), so that the typical biology and chemistry courses for biology majors and pre-med are often among the largest classes for any given school.</p>

<p>As far as small classes versus course selection is concerned, small LACs with cross registration agreements with conveniently large research universities may allow you to have small classes at the frosh/soph level, but have more course selection at the junior/senior level. But you can check on-line catalogs and schedules to see what offerings are available at each school.</p>

<p>Less selective schools without PhD students (= TAs which allow faculty to hold large lectures by having the TAs run discussions and labs) and community colleges also often have small frosh/soph classes, although medical schools may frown on taking pre-med courses at community colleges.</p>

<p>Remember that pre-meds need to pay attention to avoiding undergraduate debt, due to the high cost of medical school.</p>

4

<p>

I couldn’t agree more. When I compare the attention biology majors get at the LACs I’m familiar with (e.g. Davidson and Rhodes) to the universities I’ve attended (Duke, UNC, UCLA, etc.), there’s just no comparison. It’s night and day.</p>

<p>It’s true that you won’t find zoology at most LACs - or even most private universities, for that matter - but there are many LACs with decent to very strong offerings in organismal biology…Lawrence U, Ohio Wesleyan, Conn College, Juniata, Eckerd, Swarthmore, Middlebury, Whitman, etc. (to name only a few).</p>

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</p>

<p>That is good advice. If your family income is less than about $150K, you may qualify for need-based aid. In that case, keep in mind that nearly half of the 50 or so need-blind, full-need schools are private liberal arts colleges. 3 public universities are need-blind, full need schools for all US applicants. Most of the other n-b, f-n schools are mid-sized private research universities (5K-10K undergrads).</p>

<p>Michigan, UNC, and USC are the only need-blind, full-need schools with undergraduate enrollments of more than 15K students.</p>

<p>[Need-blind</a> admission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Need-blind_admission]Need-blind”>Need-blind admission - Wikipedia)</p>

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<p>

Michigan does not meet the full need of OOS students. Aside from the free military academies, only UNC and UVA among public colleges meet the full financial need of all domestic students, and UVA has been struggling to keep funding its students.</p>

<p>Many colleges offer substantial merit scholarships, both need-based and non-need-based. That is especially something to look into if your family does not qualify for (much) financial aid. The nice thing about picking biology (especially as a pre-med) is that you can go pretty far down the totem pole of selectivity without sacrificing too much in the way of resources or opportunities.</p>

<p>Truman State and U Minnesota-Morris are members of the [Midwest</a> Tuition Exchange](<a href=“http://www.mhec.org/MSEPParticipatingInstitutions]Midwest”>http://www.mhec.org/MSEPParticipatingInstitutions) and might be particularly worth a look. You pay 150% of in-state tuition at such universities.</p>

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<p>^ So the Wiki page I cited may need a little scrutiny. Knox College also is not full-need (it only meets about 90% of need on average, according to its 2012-13 CDS). Still, it appears that LACs are over-represented among need-blind, full-need schools. Not that you can’t find good values among much larger schools, too.</p>

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<p>Re: “meet full need”</p>

<p>“Meet full need” seems to have varying definitions at different schools. What I saw from net price calculator experiments is that UVA and UNC-CH gave significantly different (non-zero) expected student contributions for the same financial parameters, even though they both “meet full need” (UVA was higher, but a student could still handle it on Stafford loans and a reasonable amount of work earnings, while UNC-CH was low enough that a student could handle it on Stafford loans or a reasonable amount of work earnings).</p>

<p>Even the well-known-to-be-generous-with-financial-aid schools like Harvard and Stanford do have a non-zero expected student contribution, even when the expected family contribution is zero.</p>

<p>Re: University of Minnesota - Morris and the [MHEC</a> : MSEP Participating Institutions (52)](<a href=“http://www.mhec.org/MSEPParticipatingInstitutions]MHEC”>http://www.mhec.org/MSEPParticipatingInstitutions)</p>

<p>University of Minnesota - Morris has no out-of-state surcharge, so 150% of the in-state tuition would make it more expensive (and it is listed under the institutions offering no discount). Neither it nor Truman State have particularly high list prices anyway.</p>

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<p>14,000 as a ‘smaller’ school? Smaller than what, a small city?</p>

<p>Biology and Pre-Med, you know, once you are certain that will be your major, you’ve hit the college search Jackpot. It almost doesn’t matter were you go or why. Top Biology students get in med school from every college in the country, and your MCATs and your recommendation letters will carry the most weight (and just about every decent liberal arts college has a few feeder ‘ins’ at regional med schools). And where you go to med school matters even less (as the training is so uniform across the nation).</p>

<p>My wife went to a small, non-competive (really non-competitive) liberal arts college outside of Albany, NY. Majored in Bio, loved her time there and went to Georgetown Medical School (as did 4 other people in her year). Med school acceptances for that year were 100% (most going to a pre-arranged program at Albany med, the rest going to various NY med schools and a few to G-Town). Everyone was more than well-prepared to excel on the standardized test and had developed close enough relationships with the faculty to garner meaningful recommendations.</p>

<p>That formula has been the same for roughly 22 years now (as involved alumni we’ve kept abreast of the school). And it’s a formula that is repeated over and over in hundreds of small schools, and focused public schools as well across the country.</p>

<p>So, find schools with a culture you wish to be a part of in a location you’d like to be in (regional, urban, by the seaside, whatever appeals to you)–oh, and I always recommend going to a campus that is pretty, it does make a difference. If you are sure med school is your your goal, you don’t need to worry so much about the ‘national reputation’ of individual Bio-Bio/chem departments. That matters more for those who are looking to get hired into the Bio/ Bio-tech industries with a four-year degree.</p>

<p>Be sure to visit schools, and sit in on specific classes (and talk to profs via email or in person if possible) to get a handle on the academic culture. The social culture is equally important and, yes, it directly enables collegiate success (and makes the whole enterprise worthwhile). </p>

<p>The caveat is, of course, Are you really single-mindedly focused and absolutely sure med-school is your goal ? If that is a ‘yes’, you can really open up the parameters of your college search. </p>

<p>Oh, absolutely do zoology, because it interests you. You realize, you don’t have to be a science major at all to get into med school as long as you have the required courses (2 bio’s, chem, o-chem, 2 higher maths…and good scores). My wife’s partner was a history major in under grad, took bio/ chem courses at a Community college several years after graduation and then attended med school.</p>

10

<p>

I have heard that you can sometimes sit in on a class, but wonder how commonly available it is. Wouldn’t professors get frustrated, getting so many emails from prospective students? I’m not saying it’s a bad idea, but I just wonder what their perspective is on this. I think I personally might feel hesitant to “bother” them.</p>

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<p>Shoboemom,</p>

<p>I am a professor, I have had the opportunity to teach at many schools (as a visiting lecturer, and early on, as an academic vagabond, and lastly as a tenured faculty member). I have recently moved out of academia and into a more competitive private arena, but I still keep close ties (and teach occasional courses at) to the University. </p>

<p>No professor, certainly no professor you’d ever want teaching you or your child (for an average cost of 2000 bucks a course, I might add), minds getting emails from prospective students (graduate and would-be graduate students still email me all the time) and anyone can walk into almost any class on any campus (it is NOT like a hyper-secure suburban high school where there are no random adults). I have had a prospective student knock on a classroom door and ask to come and sit in on a class (unannounced), and it’s never been a problem. </p>

<p>College employees from Professors to RDs to departmental secretaries live benighted professional lives and they do so on the unrestrained largess and commitment of students and their families. You have every right, in fact, an obligation to “bother” the professors and anyone else at a prospective college or university. In fact, if you get the sense that your earnest inquiries are bothersome, well, that should tell you a great deal about the college and it’s commitment to students and the general zeitgeist of the culture there.</p>

<p>At any rate, my experience has been that going the extra mile to show real, thoughtful and mature interest in a school (such as making time to actually experience a class and contacting potential professionals in departments you hope to join) has done nothing but aid college applicants. It’s good for the college, too.</p>

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<p>Thank you ProfessorQ. That will make us feel better about doing just that when the time comes. I know we will have questions about specific departments and courses, and you are right that feeling that our questions are welcome would certainly make the school look more inviting.</p>