Last-minute advice and input...

Parents Forum
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<p>Lots of you helped me last Spring when my child was getting too sick to complete the SAT. Long story short-- thanks to your advice, she got accommodations and was able to complete the test even though she got sick during it. We <em>just</em> got them. They are somewhat disappointing but I'm not surprised considering how sick she got. So, here it is at the last minute and we need to take a hard look at these colleges and see if they're realistic. </p>

<p>GPA: 4.1w, competitive suburban school known to colleges</p>

<p>6 APs (Sp Lang 4, Sp Lit 4, US Govt 3, Eng Lang 4; senior year: Chem and Eng Lit) </p>

<p>SAT I
Best score (all happened to be in 1 sitting):
Reading: 600
Math: 640
Writing: 660 </p>

<p>SAT II
Math 2: 660
Spanish: 730</p>

<p>URM (Afr-Amer)
needs financial aid</p>

<p>Extracurriculars: very good including raising thousands for charity, completing a competitive research fellowship on Shakespeare, summer volunteer work abroad (living in the environment), other summers split between studying Shakespeare (2-3 summers doing that) and attending language camp (4 summers of lang camp), works at a dentist's office</p>

<p>Goal: chem major, wants to pursue dentistry
wants a liberal arts college or small univ in the northeast, prefers access to a nice town or city (not all fit into this category), really prefers the open curriculum, school must be coed </p>

<p>Colleges we had considered:
In the high reach category:
Amherst, Tufts (both dream schools) </p>

<p>reach:
UVA, Colby</p>

<p>high match:
Case Western, Hamilton (SAT optional), Bates (SAT optional)</p>

<p>match:
Skidmore</p>

<p>She also has a couple of solid safeties. </p>

<p>We were told to look at these colleges but I think they're all too much of a reach. Any input on these very much appreciated:
Cornell, Northwestern, Vassar, Bowdoin</p>

<p>Questions:
1- Any input on colleges on the list-- What would you add or subtract?
2- Would you have her include an additional letter or essay about her illness and SAT? The guidance counselor said she included a line or two in her reference saying that my daughter had overcome illness and a few hospitalizations but I don't think she specified the illness and that was before the SAT scores.
3- Would you bother to explain the bad sitting or just trust that they'll only look at best score?</p>

2

<p>First, I do not think these are bad scores, although they may not reflect your daughter's true abilities. Second, the colleges do look at the best scores.</p>

<p>I can't speak for other colleges, but several years ago, we visited both Bates and Bowdoin and they both were very eager to have a more diverse student body. They had trouble attracting URMs partly because of their location. We preferred Bowdoin to Bates, in part because Bates is located in a rather run down town. But Bates is an excellent school, as is Bowdoin. We also liked Skidmore where S spent one summer. Colby is very isolated, more so than Bates or Bowdoin. </p>

<p>If she has a couple of solid safeties she would be happy to attend, delete those she feels more "iffy about."</p>

3

<p>Thanks Marite. She has interviewed with Bates, Skidmore and Hamilton and is very interested in all three. The alumni did a good job selling their schools! :D
We're still waiting for interviews with the rest. Unfortunately, the only schools we've visited are her high reaches (and she LOVED them!) We hope to either visit the upstate NY schools or the Maine schools this winter. (I doubt we can fit them all in.) </p>

<p>Her safeties are state colleges-- UMd and UCt. I think she would be disappointed-- mainly because her safeties are so big-- but we really haven't run across any less competitive liberal arts colleges that we like and that justify the debt load.</p>

4

<p>Middlebury is another option. They, too, are attempting to be more diverse.</p>

<p>I love the area and town, but it is a bit remote for some.</p>

<p>My daughter was accepted at Bates and was less than thrilled with the area as well. Having said that, I have a friend whose daughter attends Bates and a son that recently graduated. Both love the college.</p>

<p>Colgate is another thought--beautiful college, but as with Hamilton, not located near much of a town.</p>

5

<p>Both those safeties are excellent schools. They are indeed large. If she cannot fit in visits now, she can visit--and she should--after she has been admitted.
But with excellent safeties, she can take more risks with the remaining schools and prune her list accordingly.</p>

6

<p>"Traditionally, Cornell undergraduate applicants to medical school have enrolled primarily in the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, the College of Arts and Sciences, the College of Human Ecology"</p>

<p>CALS</a> Admissions: Premedical Preparation</p>

<p>Applying to the College of Human Ecology or College of Ag and Life Sciences is another possibility. Admission is somewhat easier. </p>

<p>Human</a> Ecology Admissions-About our College</p>

<p>Human</a> Ecology Admissions-Home</p>

7

<p>Thinking about safeties that meet your d's preference for a smaller LAC setting - my d loved Muhlenberg, a LAC with 2500 students within an hour or so of Philadelphia. They're SAT optional, have merit aid (though I think merit aid candidates must submit SAT scores) and a marvelous campus, including a brand new science building that is easily competitive with the science facilities we saw at bigger-name schools on d's list. We didn't know what to expect when we drove into town, but our socks were about blown off by the beauty of the campus, the quality of the theater, science building, and student center, and the clear attention paid to the individual student. Maybe your d would like to look at their site - I believe the application deadline is 2/15, so she has some time to consider it.</p>

<p>If my d hadn't been accepted at her ED school, Muhlenberg would have stayed in serious contention all the way through.</p>

8

<p>Holy Cross has very good predental/premed program and is building a $60million new science building. HC like Bowdoin is SAT optional and the school has a tremendous alumni network. Holy Cross is located in a mid-size city, which is 1 hour from Boston.</p>

9

<p>IMHO, it would make sense to let the schools that place some emphasis on SAT's know about your D's health situation at the time she took the test. This could be brief and matter of fact, and her GC could vet it. It's hard to see how this could hurt, and for her reaches especially, it might help.</p>

<p>Also, for a small LAC in a great city, has she considered Barnard? Also, if she would consider LAC's in a lovely town on the west coast, several of the Claremont Colleges might be solid choices. I don't know how Scripps and Pitzer are for chemistry, but she would be able to take courses at the other colleges (Pomona, Claremont McKenna, Harvey Mudd) in any area of interest. And Scripps has great FA.</p>

<p>I realize that both Barnard and Scripps are women's colleges, but they are located right next to (and in the case of Scripps, in the middle of several) co-ed schools with complete access to all of the facilities of the co-ed schools. Both are nurturing and supportive of their students.</p>

10

<p>Colby recently received a $400,000+ grant that provides minority students with major research opportunities and mentoring in chemistry. Your D seems like a perfect fit for that program if Colby is high on her list.</p>

<p>Colby</a> | Chemistry Grant Awards</p>

11

<p>I think she can probably get into most of the schools on her list. But if she has serious health problems, maybe access to health care providers (other than college health center, which are often sub-optimal for anything more than a flu) should be a major consideration.</p>

12

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<p>You mention incurring debt as a concern. One of these schools (at least) is out of state for your daughter. AND both are a bit on the expensive side for out of state students. </p>

<p>I'm not an adcom but I would say that Northwestern and Cornell are also reaches. If you're looking at Vassar, why not consider Smith or Mt. Holyoke? </p>

<p>If you're instate in CT, the flagship campus is the best of the lot (but I have to say the state universities are really making some fine improvements and we know students who are VERY happy at both Western and Eastern).</p>

<p>If you are instate in MD...what about St. Mary's. It's in a more rural area, but from what I understand it is a fine school. UMD Baltimore County is also well regarded.</p>

<p>If you're not instate for either of these states...where ARE you? You should at least look at your instate public universities especially if finances are a significant consideration.</p>

13

<p>Thanks for the help. </p>

<p>We'll take a look at a few of those schools. I do think California is out; she doesn't want to go that far but a few of those schools are worth investigating.</p>

<p>Marite, Bowdoin is similar to some of the schools she's considering although her numbers are lower than those of the kids it has historically accepted from her school. It would be another high reach. </p>

<p>We didn't know about that Colby initiative. I don't know if Colby is high on her list. I do know it's a reach; the average SAT from her school is about 100 points higher than hers. It's on her list because she met an alumni rep at a college fair. </p>

<p>Hm... That Cornell info is interesting. My sister attended Cornell and is pushing for it. Your info made me look on the Cornell forum and it says there
that the basic science classes are graded on a curve. Frankly, that might take it right off the list for her.</p>

14

<p>If you’re speaking about the required BCPM premed courses, there are no colleges I know of that don’t grade on one form of a curve or another. Wellesley, for example, has a policy requiring grade averages for 100 and 200 level courses (read organic chem., etc) be no higher than 3.33. And that’s for any course.</p>

<p>Division</a> of Student Life : : Office of the Dean of Students</p>

<p>If you’re worried about curves, it might behoove you look at colleges that are less competitive. Hobart and William Smith has a very good pre-health dept. </p>

<p>HWS</a> Department of Chemistry-Pre-Health Information</p>

<p>Skidmore is also a great choice. Denison would be another. Both are in beautiful towns and Denison has a postcard beautiful campus.</p>

15

<p>Thumper, Vassar is coed while Smith and Mt Holyoke are female-only. And I think Vassar, Northwestern and Cornell are all high reaches. Cornell can be hard to predict although I suspect some of the kids with lower stats are instate and admitted through HEOP. </p>

<p>Thanks for that info Erewhon. I don't think that's true at Vassar or Amherst but, then again, they're very high reaches. We'll have to investigate that at each of the schools-- particularly the reaches. Our concern is that she be derailed from her goals. It is, unfortunately, one of the realities we've seen with kids-- that they go off to college to study sciences/ math and can't get through their first-year courses. I have no problem with her <em>changing</em> her goals; I just don't want her to go into an environment where kids with perfect SAT scores and 4.0 averages are failed just because there's a curve, kwim?</p>

16

<p>Revisit Oberlin in your thoughts. The four you listed as a reach are on par with Oberlin, given her scores, but there's an important difference: Oberlin's commitment to racial diversity and coeducation is historic. They have a brand new science center. They'd consider her personal application and essays with great care. She'd need to recognize that their resources substitute for city life, and that "Why Oberlin?" essay is exceptionally important there, because they take a hit due to their Ohio location. It's now a suburb of Cleveland, but in fact, most students stay on campus rather than go to weekend activities in Cleveland. The small main street is probably like every other main street in places she's considering that aren't in cities, so that's about equal. </p>

<p>On any of her applications, I believe she could mention the health issue on the SAT day and not sound like a whiner. There's a place on most applications that says, "Is there anything else you want to tell us.." or "something we should know not reflectd on your transcript.." which students use to note things like, "my cousin died on Spring of junior year, so my grades plummeted" or "I cope with emotional abuse on a regular basis and have a case file open at CHild Protection Services." To be wretchedly sick on SAT day seems, to me, in the same category of stuff the kid can't help.</p>

<p>Good luck. PM me about Oberlin if you wish: I'm an alum so am completely biased in my enthusiasm. I sent one kid to Amherst, one to Oberlin and I'm thinking she might replace Amherst with Oberlin, yet hold a chance at admission at Oberlin. Oberlin has distribution requirements for skills (Quantitative PRoficiency, Natural Sciences, Humanities, Cultural Diversity) with 9 credits, but it's not pegged to any specific course like Thou Shalt Take Math l0l. That's not the open curriculum of Amherst, but it is still very flexible to implement and accomplish the distribtuion. </p>

<p>Since she's got 2 "dream" schools from the Boston area, another consideration might be Brandeis University to replace Tufts. </p>

<p>If she's terribly disappointed, there's still nothing wrong with applying wherever she wishes, just knowing it's a longshot. That brings back in AMherst and Tufts, so she doesn't wonder forever, "what would have happened if i HAD applied"? This depends on how much stamina you have in your home for cranking out these applications right now.</p>

17

<p>“I just don't want her to go into an environment where kids with perfect SAT scores and 4.0 averages are failed just because there's a curve”</p>

<p>You’re misunderstanding the curves. I believe you’re confusing the Bell Curve where a certain percentage do fail with the different curves used by professors. It’s possible for the class average to be 3.3 with no one student below a 3.0. Otoh-It’s possible to fail too. I’m not sure who told you Amherst doesn’t curve, they do.</p>

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<p>If she liked AMherst that much, have you considered Hampshire as another way to live in that community and take courses from the other 4 campuses? Just a thought. She'd live on the Hampshire campus but be on busses a lot to the other campuses (Smith, MoHo, Amherst, UMass Amherst). It'd be a blend of Hampshire College courses and courses from other schools in the consortium; the scheduling is the trick. They don't take SAT's, as I recall, and give anecdotal report cards but will give you a letter grade if you want it for graduate school purposes later. Hampshire is a very think-outside-the-box kind of school, and yes she can hear the sound of "moo" as she drifts off to sleep, but it's in the town of Amherst, MA. </p>

<p>My D who went to Oberlin almost put Hampshire at the top of her list when she saw they only build single rooms at Hampshire ;)</p>

19

<p>"If she liked AMherst that much, have you considered Hampshire as another way to live in that community and take courses from the other 4 campuses? </p>

<p>I thought the same thing :) but regarding Smith or Mt Holyoke. They would be great supportive colleges for her daughter.</p>

<p>I second Obelin. ;)</p>

20

<p>Thank you for all your thoughts and encouragement. I have passed on the names of the schools to my daughter and am hopeful that she will have some acceptances from the list we have. </p>

<p>As far as including some sort of note or letter about getting sick during the SAT, is there any consensus on whether she should mention it or have her guidance counselor do so? The guidance counselor is very helpful-- I just feel badly because we've already asked her to do so much. (She wrote her rec, included a comment about dd's illness since she has been hospitalized twice, is nominating and recommending her for Gates and is writing a recommendation letter for another scholarship.)</p>