<p>“Have u guys considered that maybe some people are better at Science than Econ/ math?”</p>
<p>I guess by science you’re not including physics.</p>
<p>Urban, </p>
<p>I had a lot of friends from high school and college go the big firm associate route. Only one hung in there to make partner. He seems quite happy, most of the other bolted in a year or two. One found a small firm, was very successful, built it up into a firm that got too big, left and started a new small firm, and is once again happy. I don’t know what it is about law as practiced at the huge firms, but it certainly seems not to be for everyone, including those who took the jobs thinking about the money.</p>
<p>Jason,</p>
<p>Health care reform has done nothing to change the financial incentives in medicine. We are still headed off a cliff on medical expenditures. If you want to get rich, medicine, even plastics, is a risky choice. First, there is no way you are going to have an income that people in finance would consider even adequate, let alone generous. Doctors just do not make that kind of money. Second, you are assuming you will get into medical school, then be at the top of your class, in order to get a residency in a high income field. Third, you are assuming that, when you actually look at it, you will be willing to do what is required to generate that kind of compensation. Listen to urban and the story about lawyers. Those people who drop out of the partner pathway are not doing it because they lost interest in the money. They just figured out that it was not worth it. And remember that they were top students from top law schools to get those jobs in the first place. Most docs simply would not do plastics, money notwithstanding.</p>
<p>Just to put in perspective the “rich” doctors who make $400,000 per year</p>
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<p>If you want wealth, start a hedge fund, and don’t get caught.</p>
<p>A doctor friend of ours make $1 million a year and is miserable - miserable enough to quit medicine.</p>
<p>All,</p>
<p>Plastic surgeon has been the center of this discussion. Radiology is also a hot specialty. Is there a possibility that some radiologist’s functions may be outsourced one day? What effect would it have on radiologists’ salary?</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
<p>@Afan</p>
<p>r u familiar with expected value? If so, u would quickly find that the expected value for a fresh hedge fund banker is not so appealing when hours are factored in.</p>
<p>On absolute salary terms, the average plastic surgeon earn more than the investment banker( associate 300k w/ bonus). Plastics OBVIOUSLY earn more than 300k a year.</p>
<p>On an hourly basis, this gap is magnified; ibankers work 70 hrs 50 wks a year while Plastic surgeon have tremondous flexibility. Private practice means nice manageable hours set by the partners.</p>
<p>… jason, you clearly don’t understand what expected value is (a very rough calculation that adjusts for risk, not for hours). Surgeons work nearly as long as hedge fund managers.</p>
<p>You’re comparing young associate salaries in a hedge fund to a full-fledged plastic surgeon. You should be compared a young hedge fund manager (I don’t know, maybe $300K is about right) to a young plastic surgeon ($45K).</p>
<p>You dramatically underestimate the hours both of young investment bankers and young plastic surgeons; you overestimate the hours of senior financiers.</p>
<p>Private practice means hours set by the partners, yes, but they are often neither nice nor manageable. (Of course, sometimes they are, especially for senior surgeons.)</p>
<p>I refuse to believe a plastic surgeon earns 45k a year. 1st year investment banker salaries are 90k for analyst and around 130k associate. A senior associate would bank 300k.</p>
<p>Again, the expected value of the young banker is not as high as we would expect; how Many analysts make associate? How many associates make VP? How many VPs make senior banker/ director? I’d say the vast majority of hedge fund managers are stuck in the associate zone.</p>
<p>Young plastic surgeons – that is, residents – earn the same thing they do in any specialty. About $45K a year. Budding plastic surgeons who are the equivalent of first-year banking analysts (23 years old) pay $45K a year for the privilege.</p>
<p>And surgery residencies have still not accepted the rule that limits weekly work hours to an average of 80. That of course does not mean surgery residents cannot work more than 80 hours per week, that would be completely unsustainable. It means that ON AVERAGE the programs have to limit their hours to not more than *), over time.</p>
<p>Once you finish training, like all medicine, the pay is based on piece work. The more you work the more you get paid. The surgeon who works 40 hours per week earns, approximately, half the compensation of the surgeon who works 80 hours per week. But keep in mind the difference between mean income and median income. The mean is heavily influenced by the outliers on the high end. So those surgeons who do an amazing amount of surgery make huge incomes, by doctor standards, and those high figures are averaged in, giving a false impression that these high returns are typical.</p>
<p>Some doctors make $1M per year. Not many, but it is possible. Nearly no docs make $2M, and $10M is unheard of. You want to be rich? Go into finance. Medicine does not come close. In finance, you have to clear over $100M for people to even notice.</p>
<p>10 million is not unheard of. A plastic surgeon with his own brand of laser equipment bagged 12 million in the recent years. I’m almost sure he works like 20 hours a week for pure admin purposes and simply promotes his patented items and hire other plastics to work for him.</p>
<p>Again, you’re intentionally confusing the point. Of course lots of people with MDs make tons of money. But they don’t make that money as doctors.</p>
<p>BDM, lets face it, God himself could come down and write it out in gold on jason’s forehead, and he would still not concede the point :D</p>
<p>The plastics person ran his own private practice. Of course he made his 12million salary as a doctor. Whether it was medically ethical or not was another issue- the medical community frowns upon undisclosed patented technology. When people normally patent somethig in medicine, other doctors have access to the information but nOt the intellectual right.</p>
<p>Furthermore you guys are assuming all investment bankers’ salaries will rise to the clouds. Sure the cream always floats to the top but being a greedy plastic surgeon seems much for feasible in the future given the public sentiments. Did you know that law makers are considering an excise tax on banker bonuses?that’s ON TOP of standard rocket high income taxes.</p>
<p>Let’s face it. What is the most lucrative field in investment banking in the past decade? Derivatives. With regulation on the horizon, investment bankers will no longer control this once 600 TRILLION dollar market. The prospects for 100 million seems highly unlikely. </p>
<p>I have two words: pay tzar. Ask urselves how much the Aig and Citi financial managing director heads made last year. Now further cnsider their stock options…</p>
<p>“Dentists’ incomes have grown faster than that of the typical American and the incomes of medical doctors. Formerly poor relations to physicians, American dentists in general practice made an average salary of $185,000 in 2004, the most recent data available. That figure is similar to what non-specialist doctors make, but dentists work far fewer hours. Dental surgeons and orthodontists average more than $300,000 annually.”</p>
<p><a href=“Boom Times for Dentists, but Not for Teeth - The New York Times”>Boom Times for Dentists, but Not for Teeth - The New York Times;
<p>The most talented investment bankers ususally earn more than the least talented.
The most talented lawyers ususally earn more than the least talented.
The most talented physicians (with the exception of those who do cosmetic procedures) earn the same, or often less, than the least talented. The CPT codes do not adjust for skill or time spent with a patient.</p>
<p>BDM:</p>
<p>If you could do it all again, would you actually consider denistry?</p>
<p>Well – at this point, I have not yet decided to be a doctor. So, in that sense, I am still “doing it all” for the first time.</p>
<br>
<br>
<p>Uh, radiology, ophthalmology, and anaesthesiology were the hardest hit, by Medicare and other insurances, regarding diminished reimbursements; it is less bad on the East coast (managed care has taken the greatest toll, thus far, on the West coast), although a Harvard-trained, fellow classmate of mine, interventional radiologist, has seen his income drop by 2/3rds, over the past 20 years. Even interventional radiology, better paying than general radiology, took a profound hit. All three specialties cannot possibly do a fee-for-service practice, given their population and the competition who will accept diminished reimbursement.</p>
<p>Medicine, largely, is the field to go into because it is a passion not because of great financial remuneration. You could always do plastics, but even some top-notch plastics people, reknown, nationally, are feeling the recession. Derm is another specialty where you can, essentially, run a skin spa, which holds little interest for those of us who love medicine.</p>
<p><<<again, you’re=“” intentionally=“” confusing=“” the=“” point.=“” of=“” course=“” lots=“” people=“” with=“” mds=“” make=“” tons=“” money.=“” but=“” they=“” don’t=“” that=“” money=“” as=“” doctors.=“”>>></again,></p>
<p>Precisely–getting a patent on a piece of cardiovascular equipment is not earning money from putting in stents or doing “cabbages.”</p>