<p>We all know that the Medical Field is one of the most demanding and open fields in the US which results in bigger "pay-outs" for those that decide that medicine is what they would like to pursue in. I'm interested in the Medical Field because I want to be able to provide for my family with a well-paying job in the future and I've always done well in the Sciences so medicine seemed like a decent match. However, when considering "outside" forces on the salaries of the top paying medical professions, I question whether medicine is as lucrative as it appears to be. Even the highest paying medical professions (i.e. Surgeons, Anesthesiologists, and OB/GYNs) face deductions in their salary with Malpractice Insurance, Student Loan Debts (UG and Med School), Taxes, etc. And so I was wondering what the CC community thought of this issue, are there really "struggling" doctors out their in the world who can hardly put food down on the table. I certainly hope not.</p>
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<p>Although there are exceptions to everything, no you’re not likely to find many doctors who are struggling financially. That being said, medicine is not the field for you if you just want to make money. Banking and finance (and others) are a better place to go for that.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t say there are struggling doctors, but it isn’t the profession that you can just go out and buy Lamborghinis. Besides if you go into medicine it should be because of the “calling” above all else</p>
<p>Imagine a 25 year old top-school-top-grades-working-hard attorney is making $160,000 a year, while a 25 year old top-school-top-grades-working-hard medical student is paying $45,000 in tuition. The attorney is making $205,000 more than the doctor.</p>
<p>At age 30, let’s say the attorney has gotten fired from his big firm job but found an associate-paying in-house job (not crazy for a top-school-top-grades-big-firm-layoff). So he’s making, say, $250,000 (this is a little low, if anything). The doctor is a fourth-year resident making $48,000. The attorney is making $200,000 more than the doctor.</p>
<p>At age 40, let’s say the attorney has had no promotions (not crazy), and is making $275,000. The doctor has finally become a practicing cardiologist or somesuch and is making $350,000.</p>
<p>Who’s wealthier?</p>
<p>"Let’s Be Serious: Are Medical Professions really as Lucrative as the appear? </p>
<p>-Yes, for those who do not see themselves doing anything else. That would be true for any proffesion. Some people can be happy only doing certain job. That definitely was true for me, as I had to switch in my mid 30s, could not continue doing what I was doing before.<br>
So, if money is ONLY question, I do not know. But can you see yourself doing just ANY job? Some cannot. For them, money is NOT only consideration, medicine for them is lucrative because they cannot be fullfilled with something else…However, I do not know any unemployed or poor MD, never med either, it is not to say that they do not exist, but I know very many MDs, they all seem to be a happy bunch living in great houses with most spouses are not working and kids are in private schools with most of them eventually going to Med. Schools. If they were not happy at all, would they send their own the same unhappy path? As a parent (but not MD), I just cannot see it…</p>
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<p>Physician salaries haven’t kept up with inflation in the past 20 years, while the salaries of most other white collar professions during that time has outpaced inflation as the U.S. has become a more service-based economy. Some older physicians will usually tell you that the 1980s was when you could essentially become rich by going into medicine. In addition most people expect salaries, especially those of surgeons and specialists, to go down in the next 10-20 years as the effects of the healthcare reform unfold. Primary care salaries may not go down at all any may actually increase a bit depending on the way the new reimbursement system works out. In other worse, salaries will be similar those of physicians in Canada and the UK, where specialists don’t get paid much more than primary care.</p>
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<p>I don’t know about the world, but in the US there are a good number of doctors who took out all loans for both a private undergrad and private medical school and thus racked up over $300k in loans, but are working in primary care or academic medicine making $140k a year to start. Those doctors will essentially have to live like residents for at least 10-15 years post residency, but for most other doctors it shouldn’t be as bad. And as MiamiDAP said there are very few doctors without a job; the very competitive medical school and residency application process already weeds many people so there isn’t an oversupply (unlike in law where it’s easy to get into law school and you can get a job straight after graduation; hence the oversupply). </p>
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<p>Only graduates from top law schools (Harvard, Stanford, Yale, etc…) can have a chance of getting a job at a top law firm that pays $160k to start, which is what MiamiDAP is assuming. The rest of the graduates will start at only $60-80k a year at best and work their way up to making $160k in maybe be 5-10 years. Those that go into public service because they couldn’t find a higher paying job in the private sector will be making only $50-70k to start. And that’s all while have about $100k in debt from law school. In fact, recently among law school graduates only 1/3 of them were able to find a full time, non-temporary, law-related job because of the influx of lawyers. In other words, only a minority of lawyers can hit it big while most aren’t even hitting six figures. </p>
<p>Even a doctor who graduated at the bottom of a crappy state med school and completed residency, on the other hand, will still have a high chance of making at least $130k or so a year. They probably won’t match into one of the competitive, high-paying specialities but there’s a good chance they’ll still match into a primary care residency (since very few med school graduates want to go into primary care these days). </p>
<p>In the end medicine does pay off in the long run with it’s higher pay over your entire career and is less prone to fluctuations in employment caused by the economy. You’ll just have to first work a lot before you see any of the money. Even then, you likely still have loans to pay and will be working long hours (usually 50-60 hrs/week for most specialties). While you may not break even at age 35, by age 65 (when you’re about to retire) the financial situation for a doctor is MUCH better (and it gets much better as soon as you pay off your loans).</p>
<p>Money can be one of the reasons you go into medicine (just don’t mention that in your med school apps), but for the reasons mentioned above you’ll be disappointed if it’s your primary or sole reason. If you want to make money fast, everyone will tell you that business in the way to go. For example, an investment banker can make $300k-$500k 3 years out of an MBA (which only requires 2 years and can be done following 2-4 years of work experience as an analyst) and go up to $1M after 10 years. But with any jobs in business your pay will be heavily dependent on economic conditions, not to mention the 100 hr work weeks you have to pull with i-banking which leads to a high burnout rate. Sure it’s still possible for some doctors to make over $1M but those are a very small minority. Some examples would be plastic surgeons that are paid mostly in cash from celebrities, and radiologists who run their own imaging center.</p>
<p>" If you want to make money fast, everyone will tell you that business in the way to go. For example, an investment banker can make $300k-$500k 3 years out of an MBA "
-Very few MBAs will be in this position. Coming from MBA with MBA spouse and MBA director as supervisor at work, none of us are making "money fast’, we just work like everybody else and do not have jobs security nowhere near MDs’ job security. But again, we all love our jobs and do not see ourselves doing something else. You got one life, cannot do something that you hate doing day in and day out…
If you want to make money fast, rob the bank, but make sure you are good at it…</p>
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<p>The problem with this type of analysis is that one really needs to do a weighted average of the salaries. The top ~50% of a T14 law school class will obtain jobs making $160k per year. 30-40% will make $70k. 10% will not find a job – even the bottom of the class at Harvard Law found zip last year. (H hired them back as researchers.)</p>
<p>Once one drops below the top xx of law schools, to say #30, only the top 10% of the graduating law school class will make $160k. 20-30% will make $70k. The bottom half may still looking for jobs that require a JD, if they haven’t gone back to retail to pay off the loans. At law school #100, only a few graduates (single digits if counting) will make $160k. The rest of the top half are lucky to find any legal job. The bottom dwellers are trying to enter witness protection to get away from crushing debt.</p>
<p>Do the weighted math.</p>
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<p>May not be “crazy” but it is extremely rare. Those corporate positions are really hard to come by.</p>
<p>law school transparency has a lot of good info on salaries of legal grads. For example at Chapman U (#100?), ~17% of grads reported salary of $60k+, while the bottom quarter of those reporting back to Career Services had a salary of $40k. A quarter of the LS grads were unemployed.</p>
<p>How are the bottom quarter of the MS grads doing in terms of their income at age 29? For example, those doctors who work in a rural area where a majority of patients are “no pay” patients? I once heard that a concern for a young doctor in such a situation is that he or she is isolated from the rest of the medical community too early in his career and he could hardly have an opportinity of further development. (It may be as “tough” as in TFA?)</p>
<p>Why does everything come down to money? Become a doctor if you love to help people. No one actually needs a 100k+ salary to live comfortably.</p>
<p>^ Money could be a concern when you have a debt over 250K-300K easily before the “real” money starts to roll in, if the parents are unable or unwilling to chip in. This is one of the reasons why the “better” a med school student is, the more likely (s)he will go into a lucrative specialty. (and more from FMS go into primary care.)</p>
<p>It is like paying two mortgages: One is for your home, the other for your accumulated student loans for medical school education. I do not think a person with < 100K income can comfortably pay two mortgages simultaneously.</p>
<p>This is how the system works in US: No (big) money, and no medical school education.</p>
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<p>If the ACA is held to be constitutional, the so-called issue of ‘no pay’ patients is eliminated in 18 months. :)</p>
<p>But the fact is that Medicaid does pay something for most of the poor.</p>
<p>There is no such federal/state safety net (largesse) for legal beagles.</p>
<p>Do you mean “Obamacare” when you refer to ACA? (Sorry to use the politically charged term, the name Obamacare sticks in my mind easily but not the official name. The same goes for “Bush tax cut”.)</p>
<p>Hmm…how come people do not call RomneyCare? It is as if you are doing the same thing at the state government level, it is then fine. This may have some truth in it though. Just look at what mess EU countries go into when they dare to mix the rich countries with the poor countries. (The key is: to what extent people would naturally care about their fellow human beings. Most people do not care that much when they themselves may suffer when they are asked to share what they have.) The other extreme may be the gated weathy community (where they can afford the policemen – the “real” ones, not the Zimmerman’s kinds though) vs the poor inner city where nobody cares about – be it medical services or crime prevention. Just herd the low-income people (by the force of financial resources, or the lack of it) to an area that is at some safe distance from the gated area and put the tanks between them, or put an electrified fence in-between like one of “amateure” politicians once suggested for preventing illegal immigrants from coming in.</p>
<p>Yes, the ACA is the Affordable Care Act (aka ObamaCare), which will virtually eliminate ‘no pays’ in medical care. (not that I believe a free lunch is to be true, but that is the design.)</p>
<p>How does ACA virtually eliminate ‘no pays’ in medical care though? By tax dollars (or by asking those who “have” to help pay for some share of what those who “have-not” are responsible for?</p>
<p>I did have the impression that ACA asks the young and heatlthy to help pay for those who may be unhealthy and poor (and/or older.) Social Security also has the element of asking the young to pay for the old, a generational “robbery”. (The old really does not pay enough in their working years, considering how much they would receive in their retirement.)</p>
<p>There are always some percentage (say, 20 to 60 percents, depending on how poor the area is) of population who are not capable of paying (enough) for their medical services. In my state, I heard those who are poor and live out of a rich city/county are essentially recommended by government officials in the heathcare department to be brought into the hospitals in the richer city/county, and receive “free (to them)” services on the dime of those who are capable of paying. A few years ago at least, even a relatively rich city (Austin, the capitol) can not afford a single neuro surgeon who can work on the head and neck. Whoever needs this service needs to be flied to another city.</p>
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<p>An extremely large expansion of state Medicaid programs (upping the % of poverty) and tax credits so folks can buy into the ‘discounted’ state plans. Rates will be on a sliding scale based on income, and ‘free’ for those with zero income.</p>
<p>Regardless of the outcome of ACA, the fact is that the federal government pays directly and indirectly (tax benefits) for approx. 2/3rds of all health care today. No such thing exists for the legal field. Not even close.</p>
<p>I forgot which politician (likely from Reagan era or even earlier) said this: Our federal government is basically a very large insurance company (I think he referred to both Medicare and social security), and with a sideline job of of being in the defense business.</p>
<p>"Why does everything come down to money? Become a doctor if you love to help people. "</p>
<p>-Somehow MDs (most of them) have to pay back their loans, about $350k (plus/minus). It is NOT any kind of average student loan, so MD has to make more money, period…in addition to helping people, in addition to supporting your family financially.</p>
<p>On the money issue, one saying that DS heard from his peer student: “I really do not want to owe too much money. Oweing too much may turn a doctor to be a “bad” doctor who may prescribe some procedures (still legally OK) that the patients may not need. This could happen when the doctor is under great financial pressure.”</p>
<p>Because of this financial pressure issue, maybe it is not a bad idea to go to a medical school like Texas Tech medical school where the students only need to be in medical school for 3 years instead of 4 years (if in primary care). The doctors who are graduated from such an accelerated program may have less training. But they may have less pressure to pay back the huge debt so they could be a better doctor by not prescribing (borderline but still legal) unnecessary procedures.</p>
<p>An alternative is to only admit those students whose parents are capable of paying for the medical school (or at least paying for the majority of COA) on behalf of their children (like MiamiDAP for MS1 and MS2? :)). The problem is solved!</p>
<p>What to do with those hard-working students who are not capable of paying? Herd them (by the force of economics) into some engineering field which requires only 4 years of colleges. For those who are at an even lower economic scale, send them to a community college to receive some vocational training to become a technician which only requires an AA degree. Hey, in some AA-degree career path, they have some union to protect them – those who have a 4-year college degree can not take their job. So do not complain. This is basically how the system works. (Come to think of this: This is the same economic force that divides a city into wealthy neighborhoods with good schools, and poor neighborhoods with not so good schools. Those days when the supreme court ordered kids to be bussed across the city for education are long gone. How dare the supreme court to order something that is so “unnatural” to human’s nature?! No wonder it fails after a few decades.)</p>