Law vs. Grad School - A Few Querries

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>This post is long. Much of it is just ranting. You can skip the tl;dr parts and go down to the questions I posed below if you want.</p>

<p>I just wrapped up my second year at UCLA, so I'm starting to think about gearing up for life beyond the undergraduate world. </p>

<p>Put plainly, I'm bored. Don't take this for arrogance or condescension, but UCLA is not providing a sufficient academic challenge in my chosen fields (political science and history). My GPA is a perfect 4.00, and during the past three academic quarters, I received more A+ grades than A grades and exerted relatively little effort in doing so. Obviously, UCLA is a fairly high-ranked school, so you can imagine my disappointment at this unexpected turn of events. (Sarcasm). </p>

<p>But no, really, the main reason my GPA is perfect is because of my writing ability. Don't take that as a self-assessment—writing is what my instructors have repeatedly singled me out for. I had a TA who wrote me a letter of recommendation for a scholarship, and the gist of it was that I was one of the best writers she had ever encountered in her eight years of teaching. It's just an innate ability I have that allows me to analyze virtually anything and produce a collection of well-warranted arguments. I'm not a genius, by any means. I simply happen to be exceptionally fluent in the currency of academia. </p>

<p>This is all ego-stoking; I'm not asking you to chance me for top schools and I easily could have told you I was fairly smart in far fewer words. What I am actually trying to decide is whether or not to pursue graduate school for an MA in political science, or go to law school. </p>

<p>I've done a little bit of preliminary research, and my concerns with law school are simple and typical. Everything I've read seems to indicate that 1) the economy, and therefore the demand for lawyers, is trashed; 2) more and more lawyers are being cranked out by a proliferation of new/expanded schools looking to make a quick buck; 3) most newly-minted JDs are either unemployed, drowning in debt, or both; 4) ???????? 5) BAD INVESTMENT!</p>

<p>So for the past year, I basically operated under the assumption that law school would be idiotic and convinced myself that I was going to grad school for a political science MA and PhD. Then I did some research into that.</p>

<p>Frankly, academia frightens me. It seems that the trending stereotype of social science PhDs is that they invest 7+ years working towards their degree and dissertation, only to discover that there are no jobs available and that adjunct professorships are code for slave labor. Really, it says something when top-10 departments have prominently-displayed webpages advertising recent graduates that are out of work. I'm concerned that no matter how well I excel in these programs, it won't be sufficient to guarantee tenure, thus rendering it a monstrous waste of time and money. </p>

<p>Plus, the more reading I did into law school, the more it seemed like the horror stories seemed to originate from people who had 3.2 undergrad GPAs and were ****ed because their JD from Thomas Jefferson School of Law wasn't worth anything. </p>

<p>Four questions for your perusal: </p>

<ol>
<li><p>If I go to a top-tier law school like Stanford or Berkeley and continue my academic success—graduating in 2016—is the name brand alone going to be sufficient to guarantee meaningful, well-paid career employment in what appears to be an overly-saturated field? Or, put another way: do these top schools offer the chance to work within a bubble that is shielded from the turmoil going on in the rest of the industry?</p></li>
<li><p>From a financial perspective, do top schools make an effort to provide substantial merit-based aid to top applicants, or am I going to need to use my undergrad stats to try and win outside scholarships? I really, REALLY do not want to exceed $100k in student loans, and even if I got into HYS, it's not a gamble I would consider lightly. I'm very fortunate that my parents are covering the bill for undergrad, but I am far from a trust fund baby and I'm on my own after I get my B.A. The last thing I want is to be sucked into a financial sinkhole.</p></li>
<li><p>This is a stupid question, and I've probably already answered it, but over the long term, what would be a better economic investment—a law degree from a top-tier school, or an M.A. from a top-tier political science program?</p></li>
<li><p>An even stupider question, if that's possible: would a good word from a SCOTUS justice mean anything to an admissions counselor at a top school? Pure nepotism at work here, but he has kept abreast of my academic career and been suitably impressed enough to imply that I ought to choose the same career path he did.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>That was a long spiel - thanks in advances for your responses.</p>

2

<p>Your research is incomplete if you believe that only “less smart” students from lower ranked law schools are not finding legal jobs. There have been numerous news stories and reports of the dramatic fall-off in recruiting, withdrawn job offers, drops in salaries, deferred associates and lay-offs from top law firms. There are no guarantees for anyone right now, although being a top student at a top law school (assuming you can interview well) is as close to a guarantee of employment as possible. </p>

<p>Your research is also incomplete if you believe that becoming a lawyer will guarantee that you will be in a field that will satisfy your quest for intellectually fulfilling work. If you are intellectually bored with the courses and opportunities offered by a great undergraduate program, you may want to consider more introspection. There could be bigger issues at work here than merely finding an appropriate career path.</p>

<p>You clearly have a chance at the T14 and scholarship assistance if your LSAT matches your other credentials. It would help if you have additional soft factors, like leadership positions, authoring papers, volunteering, etc. References are soft factors, and clearly references from someone who is “suitably impressed” would help.</p>

<p>If you were able to continue your academic success in law school, you would then also have a chance at top clerkships. You might find a judicial clerkship to be sufficiently interesting. </p>

<p>I did not find your writing clear enough to identify whether you’re looking primarily for a job guarantee, monetary success or intellectual challenge. If monetary success, you can compare a professor’s salary with a mid-range legal salary and easily determine that the potential for financial success is greater in the law.</p>

3

<p>YHS Law Schools do not give merit money. All the schools below that level give SOME merit scholarships, but they aren’t so plentiful you can count on getting one, and they rarely cover tuition plus all expenses. If you want to be a lawyer, plan on at least some debt. Whether you get merit money is going to depend in large part on your LSAT score and how far down the pecking order you are willing to go in selecting a law school. And, frankly, I’ve never heard of generous “outside scholarships” which allow you to use them to attend law school, at least any that don’t have strings attached to them which require you to work in public interest or some specific field for a minimum of at least five years.</p>

<p>The real question here is what you want to do with your life. Spending three years in law school is a really stupid move unless you want to be a lawyer. </p>

<p>My suggestion would be that you plan on taking some time off and working for a couple of years after college to get a feel for what you want to do. There are more career options out there that you haven’t tried. Do some exploring. </p>

<p>The best time to get some positions is the summer after junior year. My own kid worked in the financial industry that year, in a trainee type program. Salary was high. (Yes, these positions are harder to get now, but there are some.) Many companies are more willing to risk hiring poli sci/history types for a summer analyst type program and then, if they are good, they get offers. Even when no offers are forthcoming for economic condition reasons–rather than competence–the reference can help you get something similar with another company. </p>

<p>School year internships or part time jobs can help too. </p>

<p>The point is to get some exposure to different areas before you commit to law or grad school. You’ve got the cart before the horse: figure out what you’d like to do first. Maybe figure out a couple of things you’d like to do. Then find out what you need to do to get to where you want to be.</p>

4

<p>Why have you decided to consider only those two options?</p>

5

<p>“I’ve never heard of generous “outside scholarships” which allow you to use them to attend law school, at least any that don’t have strings attached to them which require you to work in public interest or some specific field for a minimum of at least five years.”</p>

<p>Miss America scholarships can fit that description, but I imagine the OP would have mentioned it if that were in the cards.</p>

6

<p>You’re obviously a very bright student, and I like you’re writing style. You use vocabulary frequently, but not to the extent where reading your posts becomes cumbersome. </p>

<p>You only can decide what you want to do. If you’re willing to risk your GPA (although I believe if you just work harder you should be fine), then try to transfer to another school with a more academically challenging Poli Sci program. I’m thinking U Chic, Princeton, UC Berkeley, UCSD (no offense to UCLA, overall it is a fantastic school, but it’s weaker in the Pol Sci department, and is surpassed by both Berkeley and UCSD. Transferring from UCLA to SD shouldn’t be that bad, but then you need to analyze the benefits and costs of doing so, since UCLA is overall a more “prestigious school.”</p>

<p>Going to a school with a tougher undergraduate program will give you a sneak peak at what grad school could be like. </p>

<p>If you’re unwilling to transfer, why not take on a heavier course load? Or if you’re really ambitious, talk to your departmental heads to see if you can take graduate courses (I went to Berkeley, and students with high GPAs were allowed to do this). </p>

<p>But personally, I would go the law school route. I’m biased of course, but if you can land a solid LSAT score and get into a top 5-6 law school, and continue to do well there, you should have a good chance in landing a job that you could pay your debt off with. And hopefully the legal market won’t be as horrendous in several years when you are looking for employment.</p>

7

<p>“3. This is a stupid question, and I’ve probably already answered it, but over the long term, what would be a better economic investment—a law degree from a top-tier school, or an M.A. from a top-tier political science program?”</p>

<p>Are you serious? What can you do with a JD from Stanford? What can you do with a MA in Political Science from Harvard?</p>

8

<p>Honestly, if you were my son, I would recommend that after college, you seek employment with a consulting firm. Maybe a political consulting firm would be ideal. Take a year or two while you apply to grad school. If you do decide to attend grad school for political science, you should consider going for a PHD. </p>

<p>As for law, read up about it. Most lawyers do NOT find law that intellectually challenging. In fact, most surveys show that many lawyers don’t like practicing law. Even worse, this is the worst economy for newly minted lawyers that I have seen in 40 years.</p>

<p>When you apply to grad school, don’t discount foreign schools such as Oxford and Cambridge. I think you are obviously a very sharp guy. Use your intelligence and read up on the various opportunities that you might like.</p>

9

<p><a href=“http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/CDO_Public/PUBLIC_Version_-_Crim_Pros_2011.pdf[/url]”>http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/CDO_Public/PUBLIC_Version_-_Crim_Pros_2011.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Dunno, a lot of these guys sound challenged and fulfilled to me. What’s more, starting off your legal career in public service will help you pay off those loans. LRAP programs, you dig?</p>

<p>RE: 1 – You’ll have the biggest safety net to fall back on at Yale. You’ll have large and wide nets to fall back on at Harvard and Stanford too. Those are the “safest” schools. But none of them will save you if your grades suck or if you have neither character nor personality, etc.</p>

<p>RE: 2 – I’m under the impression that most top schools, with the exception of YHS, offer full-tuition merit scholarships. Just ace the LSAT, smarty pants!</p>

<p>RE: 3 – What are you going to do with an M.A. from a top polisci program? Teach at an elite high school? Well, it’s better than permanent unemployment if you graduate from a “top tier” law school.</p>

<p>RE: 4 – Sure.</p>

10

<p>Yeah, that’s something to consider: an MA in polisci is probably pretty close to worthless.</p>

11

<p>Eh, you’re not that great. I’m a year younger, but I’m better. Just the way it is. Not enough elite words for my refined taste. Also, you’re operating within a box. That’s why you are destined for mediocrity.</p>

<p>Always remember, my pretentious young friend, brevity is the soul of wit.</p>

12

<p>For you, I will tell you this.</p>

<p>1) Don’t go to law school unless you want to be a lawyer.
2) If you go to law school and end up in the top of your class, you’re almost guaranteed a big law job paying $160,000, granted you are not a socially awkward freak. As you go to a better school, the more flexible this top% gets (i.e. top 50% at Harvard vs top 10% at UC Davis - mind you these figures aren’t exactly and are just arbitrary numbers to prove my point, so don’t quote me on it).
3) Law is not academically stimulating and you will not be utilizing your flowery, English when you write IRAC memos.</p>

13

<p>Those “arbitrary numbers” are out of touch with the new legal reality - which is that unless you’re at the top of your class in a T14, you’re not guaranteed anything. Even then, you’re not “guaranteed.”</p>

14

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<p>1) You have not taken LSAT. If you do manage to crack 170+ on LSAT and retain your 4.0 GPA, you stand a very healthy chance of getting into a top 6 law school. Remember, where you go to law school and your grades at your law school are the two most crucial factors in securing a good employment. (BigLaw)</p>

<p>2) Just because you went to a top school, you are not ‘guarnateed’ a succssful career in law. The elite degree just helps you get in the door. And the rest is up to your ability, people skills, work product, work ethic, etc. (not just in law, but in other fields as well)</p>

<p>3) There is a big difference in employment prospects between Stanford Law and Berkeley Law. </p>

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<p>With a JD from Harvard, you are likely to be a corporate attorney at a big firm in NYC. With a M.A. in Political Science from Harvard, you are likely to become a high school teacher teaching history. What is a better investment in the long run? JD if you want to be a lawyer for a career, and M.A. in Political Science if you do not want to be a lawyer.</p>

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<p>If you have ballin’ numbers, top schools may throw money at you. Only schools that don’t offer merit aids are HYS. If you have the numbers to get into Harvard Law, you may secure a very substantial amount of merit aid offer from a lower T-14 school. And, by ‘numbers’, I mean your actual LSAT score and GPA.</p>

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<p>Probably not. Law School admissions is all numbers: LSAT and GPA.</p>