Lawrenceville: Telling it like it is!

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I found the following excerpts on the Lawrenceville website:

“For more than two centuries, Lawrenceville has differentiated itself among the very best schools by its unique combination of educational assets and values-centered priorities. A compelling and deepening body of research reminds us that the cultivation of emotional intelligence, ease of human interaction and trust-building within groups, personal integrity, and self-confidence acquired through close mentorship, and other non-cognitive personality traits are among the most important and reliable predictors of success and achievement.”

(Lawrenceville 20 / 20: A Strategic Plan for Lawrenceville School, p.4)

And,

“We will secure Lawrenceville’s position as one of the truly great schools by enhancing and elevating this fundamentally relational and richly challenging environment.” (p. 7)

Under the heading “Strategic Priorities,” the school intends to “1. Celebrate and Reinforce Community. Lawrenceville is fundamentally a socializing and relational experience. Students live in an intentionally diverse and collaborative community, among trusted mentors and role models, and learn to listen, empathize, and communicate across ideological and cultural differences.” (8)

And that’s not all. Here’s one of the proposed initiatives under that heading: “Without compromising rigor, reduce the grinding pace of life for all members of the community so that even within this richly energizing community, a reflective and measured existence is possible.” (9)

Please allow me to relate one last time what Shamus Khan says in Privilege: The Making of an Adolescent Elite at St. Paul’s School: “Though we academics highly value grades and academic excellence, we must not forget that such a baseline for achievement is not universally shared. Indeed, it is not what is instilled among the practices of the elite.” (182) And, “the ‘ideal’ of St. Paul’s is not a scholastic one; it is relational.” (71)

There’s that word “relational” again. Could it be that Shamus is ghost-writing for Lawrenceville?

We all know that stratospheric grades and test scores alone do not guarantee admission to top schools. So, why then do people continue to talk as if these quantitative elements should be the primary measure of an applicant? And why do people assume that the most brutally rigorous academic climate is necessarily the best? I’m beginning to think that Lawrenceville might just be convinced otherwise on both counts. I note in this regard that Lawrenceville no longer posts SSAT averages.

Kudos to Lawrenceville for spelling out what makes the education at some top schools qualitatively different.

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Although I think my kids were admitted to their Top Schools majorly by their stats and academic potential (which is not to say that that was the only factor, which as you know is simply not enough), I allowed them to go to BS for reasons other than academics. I did take rigorous academics into consideration for sure, but it was other things I believed BS could/would offer that justified my decision to let them attend high school hundreds of miles away from home. What I was looking for was pretty much in line what you just posted about L’ville. And I’m not complaining that BS does not deliver what they promise to deliver as that’s not our experience.

There is one problem. Beyond college, it is a very stats and hard skills driven world. Unless one is from a wealthy family with connections, you go out to the job market essentially with nothing but your grades and whatever skills you have. The hotly pursued jobs and industries have the luxury of selecting the best of the best without nearly as much consideration of the various hooks that come into play in elite school admission. If you want to go on to top graduate programs (especially top law schools and medical schools), sorry to break it to you - it’s pretty much a number game too. True - the soft skills and the many, many intangibles “instilled among the practices of the elite” will help with one’s career advancement and an enriched life experience, but for most of those to-be “self-made men”, the hard skills and numbers/stats one has achieved will make a huge difference at least early in one’s career.

Maybe it’s OK for L’ville graduates. It is after all one of the most expensive schools out there and the majority of its attendees are probably from wealthy and well-connected families?

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@panpacific even law schools play the diversity game for optics and appeasement. I believe medical school and other narrow, highly technical and/or stem type programs are still stats driven. Law schools have the luxury of letting the BAR do the dirty work.

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“So, why then do people continue to talk as if these quantitative elements should be the primary measure of an applicant?”

Because 1) the people on CC at least don’t fully understand how decisions are made and 2) it’s easy to latch onto something quantifiable as opposed to something more wholistic.

“There is one problem. Beyond college, it is a very stats and hard skills driven world. Unless one is from a wealthy family with connections, you go out to the job market essentially with nothing but your grades and whatever skills you have. The hotly pursued jobs and industries have the luxury of selecting the best of the best without nearly as much consideration of the various hooks that come into play in elite school admission.”

It depends on the industry of course, but in general, I don’t find that always the case. I think past a certain level of intelligence and skill, those that really do well do so based on softer skills - leadership, charisma, communication skills, the ability to influence and successfully engage in the politics of each institution. As someone who worked in an industry that is attractive due to its high salaries, those are the skills that I found led to true success. They weren’t necessarily the most intelligent or even the hardest working people. There’s a lot to be said for an “it” factor and there are some skills that can be groomed within a boarding school setting that helps develop that, regardless whether one was born to privilege or is an FA kid. I don’t agree with all of what Shamus Khan wrote but he touches upon this in his book as well.

Also, med and law professions aren’t necessarily the top dollar professions these days.

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@doschicos I don’t disagree with you. I am a believer of soft skills as well as successes not always measured by money or titles. That being said, the work place is becoming more and more “quantitative” and getting in the “hot” industries and top professional schools is very stats driven for most of those who don’t have “special connections”. Of course, one potential gain of attending Top School and/or Top College is to be part of the alumni networks of those institutions, which can be helpful particularly in the long run I think.

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@Center The usual suspects of high paying jobs e.g. IB, mgt consulting, medical, big law, high tech big names are all stats driven. Even the prestigious non profit careers such as Teach for America is. While soft skills will certainly help in the long run, the hard numbers are often needed to break into certain fields.

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Connections and schools and networks definitely help get your foot in the door. Once you’re in, your success and advancement depends on your accomplishments and skill in your chosen field. Beyond your first job, your future will depend on your performance, not where you went to school.

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Great discussion! DH is on the admissions committee of a med school & has been on med school faculty most of his life now. I used to be on a faculty of highly regarded med program. Here’s the deal: The BS experience will give your child many experiences that will enrich her/his maturation process. The intense competition is real in BS and later in life for many (not all or those who choose other paths). There are more applicants to DH’s program than ever before-- applicants from all over the globe. The experience of BS nurtures skills in communication, debate, time management, study habits, living within a diverse community, and critical thinking at a very intense level starting at a young age. Just been my experience that many BS kids later enter college already with a sense of confidence ( in and out of class) and above-mentioned skills that may come later for other kids. The BS kids are exposed to many unique experiences. Like other posters have said, the test scores & grades will only get you so far. This will be true down the long road if your kids want to go to med school. We tell kids to be a good person, first. Be respectful, grateful, caring, humble, and relatable to people (young & old) from all over. Not once did we say “oh, Applicant X went to HADES, so let’s take her!”… They don’t even say that @HYP ( maybe they are more critical when a HYP application seems not as great as expected)…but, the AC members can often see that young adults who did go to BS have many qualities & personal attributes that we would want in a program. The AC’s don’t want people who have been living in a vacuum, either. Work experience is important! Yes, have you ever had a job? Yes- talking about real life work experience is part of the interview. BTW, maybe " BS kids summer jobs" can be a thread. The communication skills, getting along with others and good habits you develop as a teen will ultimately help you get into school, get a job, keep the job, get funding for research, etc. The DH’s school does not rely “on paper” & is not choosing people based on stats. Been our experience that test scores & grades will get you to the first round for the med school, but actually the things that make you a person will get you accepted. Hope this goes with coffee…

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This is a great discussion! All great points, but I will tell you even in the stats and number driven world, I don’t care how good someone is on paper, if you have no soft skills…no one wants to work with a jackwagon everyday…it’s the soft skills and basic person you are that makes the difference between paying bills success and CEO success…

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Let me pour some lighter fluid on the charcoal here…you attorneys can help me… There may even be the “risk” & potential liability factors at play, also. Schools are concerned more than ever @ safety, stability, social issues. I know this is true @ several schools (ours included) because of recent lawsuits & boundary issues in the news. Even if the problems occurred years ago. Several schools even hire the same risk consultant. I have a feeling this may have a factor in admissions. It’s reflected in some of the essay questions @ our school on conflict, character, ethics, etc. It’s also a question our board is asked to consider: “Who are we selecting to live on this campus”, not only " what scores & grades are we selecting " for this school. Schools have to consider a variety of issues that increasingly don’t just center on academics. Be kind, I still haven’t had my coffee…

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I wrote in my original post (above):

"We all know that stratospheric grades and test scores alone do not guarantee admission to top schools. So, why then do people continue to talk as if these quantitative elements should be the primary measure of an applicant? "

Actually, sentence two does not follow logically upon sentence one. One can acknowledge that grades and test scores alone do not guarantee admission to top school while still believing that they should.

Thus, sentence two should read:

“So, why then do people continue to talk as if these quantitative elements ARE the primary measure of an applicant?”

Sorry. I guess it was too late at night to be thinking clearly when I made my original post.

@doschicos wrote:

“Because 1) the people on CC at least don’t fully understand how decisions are made and 2) it’s easy to latch onto something quantifiable as opposed to something more wholistic.”

You are so right. The admissions process is opaque to most all of us, and I can well understand the inclination to find grounding in the quantifiable. And, of course, people will naturally tend to favor the schemes that benefit their own kids. I suspect it’s a rare parent who can transcend such self-interest.

@doschicos also said:

“I think past a certain level of intelligence and skill, those that really do well do so based on softer skills - leadership, charisma, communication skills, the ability to influence and successfully engage in the politics of each institution. ***There’s a lot to be said for an ‘it’ factor and there are some skills that can be groomed within a boarding school setting that helps develop that, regardless whether one was born to privilege or is an FA kid.”

Obviously, I agree. Looking back at my salad days, I see that an additional measure of “it” would have served me far better in every aspect of my life than an additional twenty points of “IQ” (whatever that is!).

I am, admittedly, still up in the air on whether a boarding school can take bookish, introverted kids and confer world-beating charisma upon them. I wonder whether extroversion and introversion are so hard-wired as to be virtually immutable. I am eagerly waiting to see if such changes take place in some of my child’s schoolmates over the course of the four years.

Lately I’ve been wondering if the rigorous academic demands that schools place on kids take too much of their time and sap too much of their energy. Of course, some driven kids will fill all their time with studying no matter how challenging the curriculum. Either way, such kids are potentially getting cheated, I believe.

I say this because these “Top Schools” are so truly amazing in the breadth of opportunities they offer beyond academics. I’m grateful that my “full speed ahead” kid endeavors to have an exciting life apart from the books. I keep hearing “I’m learning so much from my classmates, both in and out of the classroom”–and I can’t express how thrilling that sounds to this parent. And, needless to say, my kid derives untold pleasure and sustenance from the purely social experience: “I love my friends so much!” has become a veritable mantra.

A child can certainly get a fine academic education without attending boarding school. What that child can’t get is the boarding school experience. The ambient energy at the best boarding schools is undeniable–one can almost hear these campuses buzzing and crackling with activity. To be surrounded day in and day out by such a breathtaking diversity of smart, engaging, motivated peers has to be the experience of a lifetime.

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@Golfgr8 I would certainly hope they would try to weed out kids, teachers and administrators who are a potential danger to the student body. The devil is in how you determine who is a risk. Is my son considered a risk to some because he has grown up around guns, owns guns, and enjoys hunting and shooting? I don’t think so. Is someone with a mental health history a risk? Depending on the diagnosis, history says yes. That’s one example of where the dabate and divide begins - when we start excluding people from different backgrounds who make us uncomfortable.

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@DonFefe I agree that the boarding school experience is special, but it comes at a cost. Surrendering my children to others 4 years (or more) before college would have resulted in the loss of hundreds of dinners, dozens of weekends, and countless laughs and struggles that have strengthened the fabric of our relationships forever. I can’t imagine having paid so much, and in the end they all ended up in the highly selective school of their (first) choice.

I applied to but did not attend Lawrenceville, and I often wonder what might have been. It is an amazing place for the right students, but alas I wasn’t one of them.

I do believe that the sense of community and energy you describe is similar in many private schools. Its not the same…but similar. Let’s call it 70%-80% of the full on BS experience. Within 10 minutes of Lawrenceville; the Hun School, Princeton Day and Stuart Country Day all have very strong communities that provide many of the advantages you mention. The Harkness or similar methods are popular well beyond Lawrenceville now. There are hundreds or thousands of schools like them across the country. I do believe that the options in the Northeast are unparalleled, which for those from other locales might result in their having to leave home to find.

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"I am, admittedly, still up in the air on whether a boarding school can take bookish, introverted kids and confer world-beating charisma upon them. "

Of course introverted kids do exist at top boarding schools but I’d argue much, much less than you’d find in the “real world”. I can’t say my kids had too many true introverts. Even at 13, 14, I think the BS ad coms are looking for a certain level of those soft skills. Navigating the independence of boarding school at a fairly tender age requires students to be willing and able to approach and engage with faculty, for example. I know when my kids went through the process, there seemed to be a lot of questions to both child and parents that seemed to go towards trying to suss out whether a child could handle the independence and communication levels. My apologies to introverts I might offend. My 2 kids are neither introverts or extroverts, for the record, but in between.

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@Korab1 - agree with your comment-- that’s why we omitted on application the awards in trap. Sad, but thought it would be a hot button for some.

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@Eyeveee, I couldn’t agree more. Every family’s situation is unique, and I don’t mean to suggest that there aren’t alternative venues that could be just (or almost) as enriching.

I will say that there was absolutely no better–nay, no CONCEIVABLE–option than boarding school for my second, astoundingly willful, whirling dervish of a kid. For my first child, it probably could have gone either way.

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@Golfgr8 we left it off, too. He’s not a competitive shooter, but we are an outdoors hunting and shooting and archery family. Sad that we both thought such traditional american activities would negatively effect our kid’s chances of admission.

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@Eyeveee: Perhaps I should have mentioned that my second child, who I love and admire beyond my ability to express, started boarding school in sixth grade at age eleven.

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Wow@DonFefe! BTW, I appreciate your eloquent writing style… And the tribute the one of the best characters ever.
Sounds like a very cool kid!!

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@DonFefe: I appreciate that every situation is different. I have friends / colleagues overseas who send their children half a world away for high school, and the children all seem to thrive in those environments. I couldn’t do it.