LD & Testing (Repost)

Parents Forum
1

<p>I'm reposting this for the sake of myself & my-3-sons. Neither of us received an answer on the Testing Forum, so I thought I'd repost here, in case any experienced parents have words of wisdom to share:</p>

<hr>

<p>SAT or ACT for LD'ers? </p>

<p>LD families (parents or students):</p>

<p>Any experience -- timed-practice or formal recorded -- with both tests? I'm especially looking for info from those who were not granted accommodation (or who chose not to avail themselves).</p>

<p>Here's the sitch:
D is LD, but initial diagnosis (write-up) seems to indicate accommodation would not necessarily be granted, just because she's so bright & compensates so well in various areas of the diagnostic testing. Yet the diagnostic testing hardly simulates the classroom or standardized testing, so the conclusion is preposterous, i.m.o. And she presents as a classic accomm. case for a variety of reasons. (Her "compensating IQ" does NOT translate to h.s.testing situations in particular.) I need further clarification on diag.test results, but let's assume she will not get accommodated.</p>

<p>(1) I've been told by other LD parents & professionals that an even longer SAT I seating is not necessarily a help, & may be a hindrance. That would seem to accord with my D's experience with the practice PSAT, which she found grueling in 3 parts. Her <em>worst</em> result was the last test, which is her strongest area (writing!); I questioned her: she said it was the length. She basically just lost it. (i.e., the focus)</p>

<p>(2) I've been in favor of the greater "recognizability" of the ACT with regard to its correlation to classroom learning. (Thus less confusing/disorienting than SAT.) However, one parent I spoke with revealed that her D did no better with ACT than with SAT.</p>

<p>(3) Did any kind of test prep -- formal or informal, light or heavy, group or individual -- assist appreciably with results for <em>either</em> SAT or ACT?</p>

<p>Bottom line: Should I even sweat this, folks? With the money, time, emotional hurdles, stress, & fighting with Collegeboard anticipated, should we just choose whichever of the 2 standardized testing formats will likely yield the "best possible" result, accept a State College with her 3.75 from an extremely rigorous private school & fabulous e.c.'s, & just move on?</p>

<p>[Addendum to this earlier post: D will have minimum of 7 Honors courses at graduation, 2-4 AP's -- the latter depending on what she can handle, Jr. yr. (She's stubborn about seeking challenges.) Also, I know that the diagnostic testing is not aimed at "simulating" classroom expectations -- it's for other purposes--, but I do have questions about that test's design, format, conclusions, & applicability. It seemed far less comprehensive than tests for other LD'ers with whom I'm acquainted.]</p>

2

<p>Out of curiousity (due to my interest in this issue) what LD's do your 3 sons have? Don't mean to pry.</p>

3

<p>eagerly awaiting answers too...</p>

4

<p>LOL, ask "my-3-sons" (different poster than myself: his/her screen name)</p>

<p>I don't have sons.:)</p>

<p>And wow, I hope that poster does not have the misfortune to have 3 LD dependents. Too much. One is <em>more</em> than enough. Sigh....</p>

<p>But rightwing, mine -- D, not S -- appears to have at least one of the many varieties of dyslexia (but not visual, & never a reading problem, ever). The way this gets translated in h.s. homework is difficulty keeping categories straight: needing to review, re-review due to confusion. Extended time is a legitimate need in testing, & an example where the accommodated LD'er will not have an "advantage" but merely an opportunity to center, re-assure, & "check" herself in the way (because of the unusual challenges) that a non-LD'er would never need. OCD is also an issue, as is distractiblity/focus problem. Foreign language is a challenge, due to the differentiations necessary (regular/irregular verbs, memorization & resurrection of new material, conjugations, etc.) Scientific formulas (the choice of which) can be a challenge. She compensates in these areas right now by just spending hours & hours on her challenging subjects & getting little sleep & being stressed. It is her choice; we battle over my desire for <em>more</em> sleep for her, lower grades, & my losing those battles every time. As she did in elem. school, she often outpaces her non-LD classmates even in Honors classes. Thus her true LD needs are often disguised & masked, & do not come to the attention of teachers -- until sometimes a critical test, when it's too late to address the needs.</p>

5

<p>I don't know for a fact, but this has never stopped me from expressing my opinion LOL </p>

<p>I would think that there is no single result to be expected with an LD student with the SAT versus the ACT. LDs vary, as do any student's strengths and weaknesses. The best thing to do is to have them take practice tests and see if there is a preference as to format and if scores are higher with one. The ACT seems to be more straightforward, but people can find themselves more time-pressured (I'm just reporting back what people have said on CC ...) So whether it is better, worse, or the same for any student can't easily be predicted.</p>

<p>It's not clear to me from the original post. Are there classroom accommodations now? If not, I think it will be difficult to get them for standardized testing.</p>

<p>Things can also change with time. You don't mention the ages of your children. My daughter had accommodations up to the time I pulled her out of public school in 7th grade. She ended up taking the ACT unaccommodated (really, didn't need them anymore since we worked on remediating her weaknesses once she came home) and scored well enough to be admitted to Brown, Chicago, and UNC-CH (OOS). She scored much better in practice tests on the ACT than the SAT; she also was able to relax more due to score choice and liked the way that the ACT just had one test per subject, rather than going back and forth like the SAT. But this does not, of course, necessarily mean that anyone else with a learning difference or weakness of any sort would have the same experience.</p>

6

<p>I do not think my d is LD but I do think every kid has there own learning style. My d is a "pretty average" type student- B+ average ACT of 23 (equate to 1060 SAT) and lets not talk about actual SAT score as it was much lower. My d hated-detested etc. the SAT. It was too long- too grueling- it made her head throb and she would come out of practice test sessions at Kaplan white as a ghost. It was not nerves as this was a practice test only. As she took a few practice tests via Kaplan and the real SAT test once, we saw that more studying and prep was not helping. I think it made her detest the SAT even more. We decided once was enough and she went the ACT route. Thank goodness we did. No muss- no fuss. Even though the test is almost as long, she did not find it as bothersome, grueling or sickening. She took the ACT test for the first time with hardly any prep. Just the actual ACT book and 1 practice test to familiarize herself with the format. The format of this test was much better for her. We stuck with the ACT and she took it 2 more times. I think for certain kids with certain learning styles, practice does not always make perfect. and I agree- more time may not be helpful. I think if my kid got more time taking the SAT she would be ready to go out the window. She was tortured enough by this test. Thankfully- she's done. I do think some kids do substantially better on one test or the other based on learning styles. For MOST kids, it probably does not make much of a difference. I just re-read your post- You also used the word GRUELING. I did not use that word lightly- I know what you mean. Have your kid take the ACT!!</p>

7

<p>One clue to predicting SAT and ACT results is performance on the achievement tests that our kids have taken through the years, like the Iowa Basics. For my daughter her scores on the college tests were in line with previous standardized testing.</p>

<p>She is dysgraphic in that her hand strength and endurance are very low and we were able to win our battle with the College Board for access to a word processor for the writing test. We did not request extended time for either the SAT or ACT. When we asked for the word processor accomodation from ACT they said we could spread the testing over several days. Very nice folks to work with!</p>

<p>The new SAT is indeed an endurance trial and I suppose one way to look at it is to realize that all the kids will be sitting for 5 hours. I agree that extended time on the test day probably won't help much.</p>

<p>Try the PSAT and see what happens. Your child might do well and then you can be assured that the SAT and/or ACT will demonstrate your child's abilities. Another strategy might be to take the SAT II, one subject test per session. Good scores might offset less than satisfactory results with the SAT.</p>

<p>Don't give up on more selective colleges at this point. Your child will put together an application that paints a picture and the test scores are only snapshots in that collage.</p>

8

<p>Thanks to my responders!</p>

<p>Diane, she has not been accommodated at school, due to a combination of 3 things: </p>

<p>(a) delay in parental (my!) recognition, due to her amazingly successful & creative compensation in elem. school; began to become clear only midway freshman yr, which is when I had her diagnostic testing; she has been quite resistant/hostile to any LD "label" or insinuation. (Equates it with "stupidity.") She's proud, competitive, independent, determined.</p>

<p>(b) success in disguising, in-school, combined with overall lack of aware, let alone trained, teachers in LD. The "extreme" academic achievement orientation of this private school -- its teachers, administrators, students, parents -- is not helpful.</p>

<p>(c) the ambiguity of the report itself. I don't know that I can even get her accommodated at <em>school</em>, which I realize is one of the collegeboard's prereqs for accomm.</p>

<p>Although she's become more open, recently, to getting help (such as tutoring, which until now she has resisted), it's possible that she will still resist/refuse an accommodation offering at school (due to pride, embarrassment), whereas ironically I think she'd be amenable to a standardized test accomm., since she would probably test with strangers.</p>

<p>I'm glad that you mentioned about the going-back-&-forth on the SAT. I can see how that, in itself, would drive an LD'er with classification problems CRAZY. Talk about exacerbating the confusion!</p>

<p>I'll also PM you.</p>

<p>marny, your "torture" is perhaps even more accurate than our "grueling."</p>

9

<p>I've also followed alot of discussion SAT vs. ACT for the past few years- I saw some interesting comments from students a while ago. (the act/sat threads used to be combined). I saw a pattern that sometimes the sports-performing arts- and kids who seemed to be involved with more physical activity did better with the ACT format. My own d is into sports, so at least for her, that premise holds true. I am curious whether your kids fall into that category?</p>

10

<p>Yes, Marny. Mine is performing arts, & would be sports, too, if time allowed. (Arts prevail, and one in particular.) I haven't followed such threads by/about athletes, but I have seen consistent correlations between artists and LD diagnoses (& resultant testing challenges). I have also met the occasional rather talented artist lacking in LD; such seems to be the exception. The interesting thing is that some of the arts institutions (Tisch comes to mind) are not SAT-optional, but every bit as demanding/competitive when it comes to score assessments with admissions. I know that the portfolio or arts resume is a major factor for Tisch, but I also know that they ask for scores. The one person I know accepted to Tisch recently had <em>both</em> a stand-out portfolio and stand-out scores. (I hate her --- J/K! I love her!)</p>

<p>Oh, just in case anyone thinks we're crazy enough to apply to Tisch, with these challenges: No! Not even on the radar screen. Not into admissions "suicide."</p>

11

<p>Okay, don't slam me, but what you describe hits many kids who do not have an official LD- </p>

<p>My Ds have vastly different learning styles- one gets formulas, one can read something just once and "get it"</p>

<p>Some people just don't test well. Period. Your D has managed to figure out what works for her, and when she got to hs, the work was harder, as it should be</p>

<p>I guess I am worried that we are so quick to get that diagnosis, that label, to explain why our children struggle with school in some area. it may be just hard.</p>

<p>My mom taught LD kids for years, and some were truely Ld, while for others it was a convienent label that was not appropriate.</p>

<p>As for the foreign lanauge, most kids have a problem with the conjuctions, verb tense, etc...that is natural and not unusual</p>

<p>I am not trying to sound cold or harsh, but my Ds also have some confusion in certain areas, and figure out how to learn the information. That is normal, typical, and expected for kids in HS and College. Kids should struggle at times, should have to figure stuff out. </p>

<p>I guess i am saying that sometimes, and i am not saying it is the case here at all, but sometimes, if something comes hard for someone, especially in a new place, ie hs, its our want to look for something to blame beside our children having to work harder.</p>

<p>I know LDs exist, I know there are all kinds, and it can make life difficult, but I think, perhaps erroneouslly, that an LD is seen as "unusual" and the results of having it are exclusive to the student with the diagnosis, while in fact, the difficulties are encountered by average students and lots of them</p>

<p>Many kids had problems with the SAT, and have had for years...the new one exhausts many students, they are totally worn out afterwards, and these kids are not LD diagnosed...its just a really tough and long test </p>

<p>Please don't slam me, i just want to point out that some of the issues the OP mentioned are common to many kids without LD...</p>

12

<p>Well, there's no need to slam, but there is a need to correct. There is a qualitative difference between many of the tendencies, factors that cgm mentions, and a true clinical manifestation of LD. As an educator I'm aware of these differences, so please let's not get into an argument over whether there really is such a thing as LD, whether other parents "take advantage" of the availability of accommodation to exploit that advantage inappopriately, etc. Or whether the LD syndrome (or varieties of that) are merely shades of difference that could apply to millions of students: they don't.</p>

<p>I'd like to stick to the facts here. My D both manifests LD (& in a number of areas; they would all be boring to list out, & that is not the point of this thread), & has been tested. Professionals are the ones to determine this, & they have -- not parent posters who do not have access to the student's profile. The type of student most challenged to receive/earn accommodation is precisely my D, & she would certainly not be in a class of 1. Collegeboard in particular works like crazy not to accommodate students who have shown to compensate successfully: they actually state that fact.</p>

<p>There are other students, not LD, who have a format preference for testing, & who struggle with foreign languages for related but <em>not</em> identical reasons. However, that is not the subject of this thread, so if we can please stay back on track here. Thanks.</p>

<p>Oh, btw, since I waited many, many years to get the diagnosis, I was hardly "quick" to get it, was I? You said it yourself: some of your Mom's students were true LD'ers; clearly mine is one. You do not sound necessarily "cold & harsh," but you do sound uninformed & quick to generalize.</p>

13

<p>The College Board is incredibly sticky these days about providing accommodations, due to being taken advantage of like crazy during the 1990's. </p>

<p>In order to qualify for additional time, a student must have a documented disability, and have received additional time as an accommodation on a 504 plan or IEP; that accommodation must have been in place for at least at year.</p>

<p>In terms of dxing for slow processing speed, there are multiple testing subtests and measures needed, not just one or two. </p>

<p>It is much more difficult to qualify for accommodations from the College Board than it used to be, but I think this tightening of rules benefits those kids who truly need the time, not just those who would like the extra time anyway.</p>

14

<p>SAT vs. ACT: I would think about giving her a timed test of each, at home, and see how she scores (obviously on different days :)).</p>

15

<p>Allmusic was making my point. I do not think that there are no LDs...I am just stating that many many many kids have the same "symptoms" and are not LD...</p>

<p>I was just saying that not every struggle is related to a student's LD...that it is just hard stuff</p>

<p>The language was a good example...French is difficult for many students, it does not come naturally for lots of people, so when you point out that it is one area she struggles in, well, its an area many struggle in</p>

<p>So I wonder how much is just HS school being hard and how much is truely related to the LD</p>

<p>i am not trying to be difficult, but these issues and struggles will be there a person's whole life and need to be really looked at to see where the difficulty comes from in order to handle it and adjust</p>

<p>My oldest D is not a great math student, the concepts in precalc are just plain hard for her, she struggles in that class, while other students undertand the concepts right away. She may stuggle in that class the same way your D struggles in another class.</p>

<p>We need to be careful that we don't attribute every difficulty we encounter to a "label"...because, while the diagnosis is warranted, in the real world, adaptability, functioning need to be brought into everyday living</p>

<p>Your D understands that and feels that working hard she is stronger for it and sees that in the world she is going into, her capabilites and her future will be well served by her figuring out what works for her</p>

<p>Your D sounds like a wonderful girl who wants to take care of business her way, maybe you need to let her</p>

16

<p><a href="http://www.princetonreview.com/college/testprep/testprep.asp?TPRPAGE=77%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princetonreview.com/college/testprep/testprep.asp?TPRPAGE=77&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Princeton review has free practice testing around the country (to get you to sign up for a class) but it was very helpful to my D, who just did the practice tests and a free review session</p>

<p>As well, have D take practice tests, lots of them in different locations besides home- libraries, someone else home, an office, out of the comfort zone so she can figure out strategies that work for her</p>

17

<p>As I said early on- I do not think my kid is LD- never tested nor will she be. But I do think the two tests are different enough that SOME kids due to their learning style may do significantly better on one than the other. All I can suggest is that if you think your kid is struggling too much with one of these tests, I suggest you jump ship and try the other test. It may save alot of aggravation. And for some kids (like my own) all the time in the world was not going to make the SAT any better. She wanted to get this test over with ASAP.</p>

18

<p>"She [cgm's D] may struggle in class in the same way that your D struggles in another class."</p>

<p>Wrong! Different reason/source for struggle, & diff. result. (LD vs. non-LD.) We all have our intellectual strengths & weaknesses, our different learning <em>styles</em> (a term often, & very inappropriately, confused with <em>disability</em>). One can "work around" styles much more successfully -- can adapt, so to speak -- with a style difference vs. a disability. </p>

<p>And again (to other posters), I would appreciate not resurrecting arguments on previous threads about abusers of elastic testing rules, & how therefore the Collegeboard is just ever so justified in their overall brutality regarding the general subject. The appropriate response (of CB) would have been merely to scrutinize each request & insist on the stated verification, versus the way they did respond, which was to <em>eliminate</em> accommodation from those who had proven documentation of it. The documentation in itself does NOT qualify a student for an automatic extension of time. Thanks for repeating the rules that I do know, AllMusic, including the slow processing speed variations that I also know, but I do not share your sanguine view of CB. One of these days they're going to be hit with a big time lawsuit. </p>

<p>CGM, thanks for the link, & I agree with your suggested strategies regarding practicing et al. However, you're dead wrong if you think for a second that "I need to let her [just figure out her way]." I do let her, & have her whole life. What I will not let her do, if possible, is to continue to endanger her health with her Extreme lifestyle/insomnia. Limits have to be drawn. However, while she could not completely have her cake & eat it, too, she could have some of that cake (i.e., continue to excel, if that's what she wants) if she were to "accept" diagnosis. Why? Not even because/if it would grant her accommodation. MUCH more importantly, because she would be able to manage her LD so much better by facing it. This has been proven time & again, on & off these boards. Accepting it does not mean accepting mediocrity, or not achieving to the max. Rather, it allows one to see both one's limits & one's possibilities; it arms one to utilize one's best tools to accomplish what one seeks. On the Admissions Forum a few months ago there was a student poster who discussed how she had done just that, & how she was a member of some advisory Board, I think, or made some presentation about it & has become somewhat of an activist in that field. As I recall, she was also accepted to some very fine college, I forget which one. She wrote an essay about managing her LD & using that knowledge in a constructive way. But <em>dealing</em> with the reality of it was essential to her liberation.</p>

<p>I do not advocate Denial as a pathway to success - whether in education or in life in general.</p>

<p>Separate issue (& thanks for the reiteration, Marny): the organized (institutional) test preps are so SAT-oriented. Our school sponsors a (group) test prep program singularly aligned to the SAT. I know that there are private programs that prep for ACT. And, as others note, one can go to the sites for that, too. But I guess now my D will have to excuse herself as the only one not prepping for the SAT, at school. Wonderful; she'll love that.</p>

19

<p>I firmly believe that sometimes the problem is the way things are being taught, or at least any problem may be aggravated by the teaching style. My daughter had multiple expert labels since age 2 (it would be stretching things to call them diagnoses). She had intensive special ed and made remarkable progress -- until she was completely mainstreamed and was faced with my local school system's choice of teaching style. She was close to flunking everything in 7th grade except for Spanish, the only course that was taught in a straightforward manner. All the system would do is accommodate her; they either said she didn't need remediation or it couldn't be done.</p>

<p>Well, I managed to do the remediation once I pulled her out of school in the middle of 7th grade. My daughter did have a problem with thinking she was stupid. But once she realized she didn't fail, the system had failed her, she did fine.</p>

<p>Of course, this doesn't mean that I think that all learning disabilities are a function of teaching methodology. My daughter had real problems to begin with; she didn't even see a mainstreamed class until grade 4. But then what problems she had from that point on were from the way the regular ed classes were taught. Theoretically, yes, LDs cannot be overcome, anymore than IQ can change. Well, my daughter started out with a severe language delay and an expensive expert saying she would probably never talk and would have to live in a group home eventually due to that and "organic brain damage" (the latter diagnosed by behavior). She started talking and her measured IQ dramatically increased over the years. She ended up scoring in the 99th percentile in the reading and English sections of the ACT. Probably because I didn't take her last speech therapist's advice not to teach her Latin because this would "confuse" her, just as we rejected a lot of advice over the years ("why that book's too difficult or long for her to read," etc.)... Her "group home" is now a dorm at Brown.</p>

<p>I've certainly run across many students who had problems with the way they were taught in institutional schools, then made great strides once they began to be homeschooled or afterschooled by parents and tutors sensitive to how a given child learns best.</p>

<p>Perhaps epiphany's daughter can learn from our experience -- that needing help or a different approach is not a sign of stupidity at all. A remarkable number of students in my self-proclaimed "world class" school system need to be tutored, are flunking the soon-to-be-mandatory high-stakes subject tests, and need remedial courses once they are in college.</p>

<p>OK, I'll get off my soapbox for now!</p>

20

<p>epiphany- My son has LD and ADD and he went ahead and did the school based SAT prep anyway. It was through Kaplan's and I figured whatever he gets out of it great. He didn't mind going and I think he did get something out of it. His score's on their test improved from beginning to end. He never asked for extra time from them so he never completed a test so the scores never matched his PSAT.
He did take the PSAT with extra time. It helped tremendously. I was shocked. He was granted 100% extra time. He was supposed to take the test in April but they couldn't find anyone to proctor the exam so he will take it in May. We didn't think to ask for extra time for the ACT. He will take the ACT without any prep and we will see what happens. At my son's school they don't have many students who ask to have accommodations so it is a learning experience for his counselor as it is for us. I am not sure how she managed to get him extra time. She also was able to get him a tape recording of the test. Whereas a friend of mine whose D has severe processing problems who was only diagnosed in 9th grade was denied accommodations. I think the key seems to be diagnosis prior to high school seems to help with the granting of accommodations. My friend's D like yours always attended private progressive school's or had tutoring off site and her parents never pursued the official diagnosis and now it is haunting her. She has above a 4.0 with several ap's yet barely broke 1000 if you count both verbal and math. She is one who would clearly score higher with more time.
My son rarely use's his approved accommodations in school. He is hesitant to ask and he is at an age where he needs to take the iniative to ask for what he needs. He has been lucky this year to have easy grader's in both of his humanities classes so I haven't had to intervene. I think many of these students do go into denial in high school. They just want to be like everyone else. My son has enjoyed great success with school since starting medication. Yet he wants to quit taking it.
One note on prep- I noticed with both my kids that they had the tendency when doing practice tests to not fill in the grid. I think this is not a good practice. They need to practice staying in order and keeping the focus as their eyes move from test booklet to score sheet.
Good luck to your D. I hope the Collegeboard grants her accommodations.</p>