Legacy Admissions Strike Again

Parents Forum
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<p>GorillaGlue, D did indeed get in to her Ivy, and according to the coach, Admissions officially informed him shortly ahead of the official SCEA announcement date that the athlete he was supporting for a position on his team had been selected for admission. Either he is lying to us, and spent all that recruiting money and effort for show, and the Congratulations package from the school is fraudulent–or you are misinformed. I suspect it is probably the latter.</p>

<p>As for your claim that LLs are sent out in October, this contradicts the Ivy League’s own stated policy:</p>

<p>From the Joint Statement on Common Ivy Group Admissions Procedures:
B. Within each institution’s overall admissions process, from October 1 through March 15 an admission office may issue probabilistic communications [likely letters], in writing, to applicants who are recruited student-athletes.</p>

<p>On a related note, I also see from a recent article in the Harvard Crimson ([300</a> ?Likely Letters? Sent to Class of 2015 | News | The Harvard Crimson](<a href=“http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2011/2/15/admissions-letters-letter-fitzsimmons/]300”>300 ‘Likely Letters’ Sent to Class of 2015 | News | The Harvard Crimson)) that 200 LLs were sent out to athletes last year, and 100 LLs to non-athletes. The article does not state what the attributes were of these non-athletes, but I think it is significant that there were so many of them, and so few (200) to athletes, at least relative to the common mythology. Clearly, not all recruited athletes receive LLs.</p>

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<p>A girl in D1 's class was courted by Yale for swimming, parents were invited to visit, wined and dined, and she was invited to apply early. She was not accept.</p>

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<p>X97301 Thank you for your post. Finally some facts instead of opinion. So we are discussing 200 spots over 41 sports v 100 spots for other activities at Harvard. That’s it.</p>

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<p>Facts this post. Question next post (of mine).
I took a look at the Rivals 150 2012 Prospect Ranking on Yahoo! Sports, for basketball.</p>

<p>One of this group is headed to Harvard:
Power forward (name omitted here, easy enough to find), ranked #134 in the nation, #38 for his position (as power forward), committed to Harvard on 9/26/2011. I think this means that he was guaranteed admission ahead of that date.</p>

<p>Two are headed to Stanford:
Power forward, #73 overall, #22 among the power forwards, committed to Stanford on 10/31/2011, and is listed as having received an offer from Harvard
Power forward, #132 overall, #37 among the power forwards, committed to Stanford on 10/12/2011</p>

<p>I did not check all of those who have not committed yet, but did notice
Power forward, #128 overall, #35 among the power forwards, has an offer from Harvard</p>

<p>Then there was a story by Eric Bossi, Rivals.com Athletic Recruiting, which starts: “Tommy Amaker and his staff at Harvard don’t host a ton of big recruiting weekends, but when they do they go all out.” I haven’t read the rest of it, because you have to join the site to do so.</p>

<p>However, this looks to me like a whole 'nother ball game from the one experienced by those who are highly talented in another EC.</p>

<p>I grant you, if Harvard wants to have a halfway-decent basketball team, they have to make offers on the time scale of the powerhouse sports schools. So I am not really objecting (although I am not really sure of the utility of their having a halfway-decent basketball team), so much as just commenting on the timing and apparent certainty of the offers.</p>

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<p>11/9/2011 Long before EA/ED decisions came out.</p>

<p>[Houston</a> area athletes who have signed national letters of intent | PrepSports | a Chron.com blog](<a href=“http://blog.chron.com/prepsports/2011/11/houston-area-athletes-who-have-signed-national-letters-of-intent-today/#loopbegin]Houston”>http://blog.chron.com/prepsports/2011/11/houston-area-athletes-who-have-signed-national-letters-of-intent-today/#loopbegin)</p>

<p>Basketball - Kit Metoyer, Cy Falls, Harvard<br>
Baseball - Chris Lanham, Lamar, Yale
Baseball - Kevin Roy, Lamar, Columbia
Baseball - Brian Schwarzbach, St. Thomas, Pennsylvania</p>

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<p>Then for the question:</p>

<p>Consider a random cellist, who has cello as an EC, and does not intend to become a professional musician. Suppose that the overall skill and promise of the cellist means that he/she is the #132 string-orchestra performer in the high school graduating class of 2012, and #36 among the cellists. (I realize that there is no Yahoo! Orchestra nor any other means of providing a ranking of which I am aware, but please suppose that’s where the cellist truly stands.)</p>

<p>Further suppose that the cellist has an AI of a) the average for the helmet-sports teams at Harvard, b) the average fencer at Harvard, or c) 240 (your choice).</p>

<p>What do you think are the admissions odds of the cellist? I don’t actually know–can’t even contribute anecdotal evidence. But collectively, the CC parents can probably come up with an educated guess. </p>

<p>I think it is safe to say that none would have been admitted by the end of September, in any event.</p>

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<p>One of our local athletes committed to Clemson in June after his junior year. I don’t really know how that works?</p>

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<p>Probably very low odds on the cellist since AI does not apply and #132 is not Ivy material. Top 5 cellist in the nation - one of the Ivies might count that as an accomplishment.</p>

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<p>texaspg, I think we are “on the same page,” but just to double-check: I am supposing that the cellist would rank #132 among all graduating high-school string orchestra players in the country (similarly to the basketball players who are being admitted).</p>

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<p>

This is an example of poor reporting. Ivy League recruited athletes don’t sign National Letters of Intent. NLIs are for athletic scholarships, which Ivies don’t offer. I’ve heard that some high schools honor their college bound athletes with a HS signing ceremony, with the Ivy bound kids signing a blank piece of paper.</p>

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<p>I see it differently. When it comes to the Ivies, these athletes are maintaining these high level academics all the while competing at the top level athletically. There is a boy who got a LL from Harvard, he has 4.0 UW. Has scored 5 on all his ap, high SAT and has Olympic trial cuts in swimming. He swims before school at 5:30 and after school for another three to four hours making between 9-11 practices per week. These athletes physically exhaust themselves and still rise to the top. The fact that some score slightly lower on the SAT because they did not have time to take a SAT review course or get a B because they had training and couldn’t get enough studying in should not make them substandard. </p>

<p>As far as knowing ahead of time and the whole recruiting process, as I said to my daughter, you can change your class, you can change your roommate, you can change your major but your coach and your team is the same for ALL four years, be sure there is a fit. Unlike many of the other EC, team chemistry is part of the EC. Much of the recruiting trip is seeing if there is a fit from both sides. As has already been said, the LL just is a way the Ivies can compete with the schools that have athletic scholarships. Think of the student who has a dream of going to Harvard but doesn’t know if they have a chance. Another school wants that student and is wiling to give them a scholarship. Once that student commits to that college they cannot apply somewhere else. The Ivies have to give LLs so that a student can make an informed decision.</p>

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<p>"This is an example of poor reporting. Ivy League recruited athletes don’t sign National Letters of Intent. NLIs are for athletic scholarships, which Ivies don’t offer. I’ve heard that some high schools honor their college bound athletes with a HS signing ceremony, with the Ivy bound kids signing a blank piece of paper. "</p>

<p>They are there showing they have been accepted using the likely letter. In most cases, these kids are declining several other offers with an athletic scholarship and stating publicly that they are playing for a specific college, in this case one of the ivy league schools which have issued them a likely letter. The newspapers are simply tracking the progress of athlete by school and where they have decided to go. I would not call it poor reporting, just that Ivy recruitment makes it hard for them to state exactly what they did. </p>

<p>As I mentioned in an earlier post, there were two kids recruited for fencing at Penn and Princeton. Since fencing is not considered sport in Houston, no one is even tracking it in the paper.</p>

<p>quantmech - yes, I understood you are trying to compare the cellist with an athlete and I am saying there is not a chance for a #132 to be accepted based on the skill.</p>

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<p>Simplymom,
I am not sure anyone here doubts the time commitment, balancing act and so forth of these athletes recruited well head of other applicants by the Ivies. {Artists are also very time-constrained by their non-academic activities, I must add, as a parent of one of each.}
The questions here are whether the recruited athletes should have priority admissions {including over the super-talented artists heading into campus groups that need students like them}, and also be effectively pre-selected every year by the coaches.</p>

<p>Another way of putting it: does the colleges really believe that , without the efforts of the coaches, the sports teams would not be filled and formed?
As to building the orchestra, the a cappella groups, choruses, the theatre and dance companies, why not have the actual professors in the related departments do the scouting and recruiting, as they really have the chops to judge the talent? Is the Admissions office keeping track of these admits to make sure these artist seats are are filled? If so, why do THEY have this power?<br>
If not, do the spaces just get filled randomly with ease?</p>

<p>Anyway, I believe that for athletic recruiting the NCAA procedures set the tone of the competition.
In contrast, the artists are left to a much more random process, with many variations of trying to get a few good candidates to come, but most seem to be left to the regular application process.</p>

<p>I am mightily confused by all the differing and conflicting accounts of both athletic recruiting and arts recruiting.
I suspect that a lot of the info we get is based on hear-say and erroneous understanding, including poor reporting, plus a certain amount of gamesmanship on the part of the coaches and colleges and candidate, bluffing and over-promising and inflating. I am beginning to think that the “truth” about all this is really not possible to discover, short of coaches and Admission offices coming out and clarifying exactly what goes on (in all variations).</p>

<p>I am not saying that this is a conspiracy. Nor am I accusing anyone of lying; I am merely concluding that there are obfuscations and misunderstandings mixed with the truth… soooo we are left with the “???”… Yet, I do feel that it is a worthwhile question to ask!</p>

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<p>I don’t doubt that it’s hard to become a nationally ranked athlete while maintaining high-level academics. On the other hand, I think it’s no harder to be basketball player #135 in the country than to be stringed-instrument player #135 in the country–perhaps aside from the greater risk of injury to the basketball player. My guess is that texaspg is pretty much right, and the (hypothetically) #135 strings student probably gains a bit of extra consideration, but relatively little.</p>

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<p>I am not stating that the athlete is better than the other EC. I am just responding to the implication that Harvard is wasting it’s education on athletes. I am not sure of the data but I would venture to guess that #135 stringed instrument player in the country has 100 ranked stringed instrument players that are ranked higher than #135 that also have incredible grades, scores, etc. On the other hand, you may have to go down to #135 in basketball to find a player that has the suitable grades, scores, etc.</p>

<p>When being recruited in sports, there are deadlines for commitments and there are slots that are lost if you wait until regular decision. I am unaware of the same thing existing in other ECs. LLs are Harvards way of saying to the athletes that before you commit to someone else you should know we are interested. The enemy is not Harvard admissions but D1 scholarship schools. Harvard has to do something to attract the athlete that is ALSO the scholar. And yes other EC do get the LL.</p>

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<p>"I would venture to guess that #135 stringed instrument player in the country has 100 ranked stringed instrument players that are ranked higher than #135 that also have incredible grades, scores, etc. "</p>

<p>Are you saying, then, that athletes generally have lower stats than artists?
If so, why is that?
Is athletic success inversely proportional to academic success?
Are there really so few scholar-athletes> Look at the D3 schools- they do have plenty, and seem perhaps to be a bit more satisfied with a slightly less athletically inclined scholar… Why shouldn’t the Ivies operate a la D3?</p>

<p>How do D3 schools stack up against the Ivies (special section of D1) in NCAA competitions?</p>

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<p>D3s like Chicago are also issuing letters lately to athletes. However, they don’t have any scholarships and the FA is not as good as Ivies to make up the lack of an athletic scholarship.</p>

<p>D1s usually have a reasonable chance of going pro. Can’t say the chances are reasonable for a D3 athlete.</p>

<p>In the end, it all comes down to Ivies taking athletes who are going to the Ivies for an education and forgoing full athletic scholarships elsewhere. If the sport is more important to the athlete, it is easier for them to join a conference where there is lot more visibility, TV time etc.</p>

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<p>I don’t think Harvard is giving out 100 likely letters to kids with other ECs. I’d hazard an educated guess that at least some of those 100 letters are going to highly qualified URMs. Some of the others may go to academic superstars–Intel top 40, USAMO team members, etc. I think you’d have to be the next Yo Yo Ma-who did go to Harvard—to get one for music performance. </p>

<p>Fencing, squash, water polo, field hockey, etc. don’t get a heck of a lot of TV time.</p>

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<p>So, for the helmet/lead sports, I can understand that the Ivies may use recruiting to bring in a few NON-scholar athletes. How many slots of a team in a given year were recruited?
The non-recruits on the Ivy teams would be the scholar-athletes, like D3 recruits and players.</p>

<p>I feel that the athletic recruiting process is complex enough, and the arts networking>LL process varied and one-off enough that even those who have gone through it themselves may not actually have an accurate picture of what is happening, especially in toto. My experiences are limited to my two D’s, and their classmates/team-mates, and to info offered by parents, and,of course, gossip, and rumors…! </p>

<p>As I have said, I have been in both the athletic and the performing arts (vocal, drama, dance) communities.</p>

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<p>I know of a cellist who went to harvard couple of years ago who won a major music award from Fidelity Investment (they do something called the futurestage). I think he may have been at the top of his class and music was an added tip - no LL though.</p>