Quoting an Early Decision discussion where this hypothetical was posted:
"1. Do I want to have a chance at one of the most selective schools in the country (say, Princeton) even though it means giving up my leg up at a slightly less selective/desirable school (Penn) and therefore increasing my chances of going to a significantly less selective/desirable school (say, State U)?
Or do I want to maximize my chances of not going to State U by giving up the possibility of going to Princeton and maximizing my chances at Penn?"
This is my DD’s situation. She is a strong student and soon to be rising senior at an east coast magnet high school w/STEM focus where she is a very well rounded student. She plays a couple varsity sports and is a captain but more for leadership than skills, has leadership positions in extra-curriculars and solid tests scores so far that put her into the SLAC or Ivy pool. She’ll keep her STEM focus (likely computer science or chemistry) in college but unsure whether she’ll major in engineering so a school with both an engineering and strong liberal arts program would give her the most flexibility. She is a legacy at Williams and is very familiar with and likes the school but in an ideal world prefers Princeton or Stanford for their larger size and resources. By this fall, she has to decide whether she uses her ED bullet at Williams or apply as an unhooked SCEA applicant to those extreme reaches with the real risk she’ll contend with months of RD uncertainty and possibly end up at a school she likes substantially less than Williams. Surely a first world problem and certainly no guarantee she’d get into Williams ED but any guidance from those who’ve been through a similar calculus?
If she is really interested in Engineering then Williams should be off her list, regardless of her legacy status.
She MAY want to consider applying EARLY to USC by their Dec 1 scholarship deadline. USC has a fabulous Engineering program, great Liberal Arts and Science programs, and is a top ranked vibrant U on the move.
Applying ED or SCEA to any other U will still be OK since applying early to USC is a requirement for scholarship consideration.
Is she likely to be a NMF? if so she would get a 1/2 tuition scholarship at USC if accepted. USC accepts about 50% of NMF applicants who show REAL genuine interest in going to USC.
But it is not a safety for anyone these days.
Choose based on fit first. If her ideas of prestige and admit rates were not part of the decision, which school would she pick?
For the record, I don’t think most kids can get a better undergraduate education than what Williams offers. It’s among the HYPS of the LAC world, and LACs devote considerably more focus, attention and percentage of resources to their undergrads.
But it doesn’t offer Engineering. So if she is gung-ho about that major, Princeton is the better academic fit.
Does her high school have Naviance? If so, it’s time to check the stats and talk to her GC/CA. How many people from the last 2-3 classes have applied to Stanford and Princeton? How many were admitted? What were their stats compared to your D’s? Did any of them have hooks she doesn’t have–recruited athlete, legacy, URM, development case, celebrity parents? If someone with her stats without hooks got in then go for Stanford/Princeton. (She probably has slightly better odds at Stanford being from the East Coast, if all else is equal.) If all the unhooked kids with her stats were rejected, then my advice would usually be to go for Williams. But if she really thinks she wants engineering, it’s not an option.
The reality is that unless she has some kind of hook you haven’t mentioned or she is among the tippy top students at her school, her odds of getting into either Princeton or Stanford are very slim. Such are the odds for everyone.
Williams is a wonderful school but as others have stated, it’s not a good fit if your daughter is interested in engineering?
She should spend her time learning what Princeton or Stanford or any other tippy top wants to see, so she can round out her experiences, if needed, and has an idea of what a solid app is. Leadership is more than titles and can come through in the sorts of choices she made and her thinking. Or not.
The way you wrote this, sounds like you want a tippy top, even if it means Williams, without engineering. ? There are so many great colleges.
^ Right. There are a ton of unis with “larger size and resources”, so why specifically Stanford/Princeton? UMich also has a larger size and resources, so why not UMich (just as an example)?
Even if she’s in the top five students with great SAT/ACT her chances are slim. Without something special or unique very few of even the best students get in these schools.
OP here. Appreciate the thoughtful responses so far. She’s really not sure she wants to study engineering and Williams does have a 3-2 program w/either Columbia or Dartmouth for engineering. She’s more likely to major in Chem or Comp Sci. She does want to take a variety of liberal arts classes as well and enjoys writing. She’d be a full pay student. Her HS does have Naviance and over the last 3 years 6-10 have been accepted each to Stanford and Princeton. Her profile indicates she’d have a similar chance at both but a much better chance at Williams which accepts about 35% of applicants from her HS and almost 50% of students with similar Naviance data points. She doesn’t want to go to one of her instate options. There are other schools she likes (incl UMich and UVA) but not enough to apply ED/EA.
I think it is really hard to opine as it is the proverbial “bird in the hand, 2 in the bush” scenario. I do know several legacy students at Williams and they all applied ED. She’s really going to need to get comfortable with whatever decision she makes and own it, not to state the obvious.
Bottomline, I’m sure she’ll get into some great schools regardless of the path she decides to pursue and whether or not she gets into Princeton, Stanford, or Williams. I think at some point one of the most important things we can do as parents throughout the process is helping our kids to not develop a “dream school” crush and reassuring them that there are many wonderful schools where they can achieve and be successful.
Her situation is not the same as the hypothetical because Williams is not an appropriate choice for her. It doesn’t offer an engineering major, and she wants that option to be available.
@KnightsRidge I understand your dilemma. My daughter faced a similar decision last fall - Princeton SCEA vs Williams ED. In her case, Williams was clearly her first choice so it was an easy decision for her. It wasn’t so easy for me because of the binding nature of ED. In the end she was accepted ED, ecstatic to get into her first choice and be done in December and never looked back. (She did also apply to a couple of state schools EA, to @PurpleTitan 's point.)
You say your daughter prefers Princeton or Stanford over Williams. That may be your answer. If she applies to Williams ED and is accepted, will she be happy with her choice? Or is she always going to wonder “what if…”?
I think ED is best used if there is truly a first choice school. Using it just to increase admissions odds might be setting her up for second guessing her decision later.
Given that she is “more likely to major in Chem or Comp Sci.,” the issue seems to be whether she would regret EDing to Williams if accepted – and not trying for others. Also, isn’t Engineering possible by majoring in CS or Physics undergrad, then getting a Masters in Engineering? “Strong” student and “solid” test scores do not sound like a recipe for an unhooked student to get into Princeton or Stanford. If she wants an undergrad school that offers Engineering, better bet would be ED at a school such as Duke, Penn, or Northwestern. Personally, I would do ED to Williams unless the lack of Engineering is a DQ factor.
Yes, I agree with @schoolview, if Princeton or Stanford is her first choice, apply SCEA there, no sense in settling for a third a fourth choice right off the bat, nothing risked, nothing gained.
Saying one prefers Princeton and Stanford is sort of meaningless. Even with top GPA and test scores without a hook of some sort admission is not realistic. A few students will get admitted on essays etc. but most won’t. Sports only matters if you are recruited. At Stanford that means national caliber and at Princeton D1 and at Williams still quite good. You mentions her leadership roles in EC. What exactly are you talking about? Most successful applicants to S/P have similar things. Unless it’s truly exceptional then the legacy thing is your best chance by far.
3+2 programs are not great options for prospective engineering majors. For one, it means 5 total years of college costs instead of 4. For another, admission to the “2” school is not necessarily assured (for Columbia, it means meeting strict grade and GPA requirements). And many students who chose a LAC in the first place may not want to transfer away from the school and other students that they know and like to a different school that they may like less.
