Should I even consider Williams ED?

Chance Me / Match Me!
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Hello! I’m a junior and a prospective applicant for Williams. Williams has been my dream college for some time and I plan on applying ED. However, I recently saw this post:

http://ephblog.com/2017/10/03/how-admissions-works-at-williams/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Ephblog+(EphBlog)#:~:text=Each%20applicant%20gets%20an%20academic,the%20strength%20of%20teacher%20recommendations.

I’ve felt quite discouraged since reading that post since it seems like I no longer have a plausible chance at Williams, and would be better off ED’ing to a less competitive school. For reference:

Stats:

Major: Philosophy
GPA: 3.85 UW, 4.6 W (5 B’s in high school, all from freshman year and first semester sophomore year – straight A’s since. Also I believe I have several B’s from Honors Algebra, Honors Geometry, Spanish 1 and 2 from middle school, which show up on my transcript.)
Rank: School officially doesn’t rank, but based on deciles I would be roughly top 15%. Some necessary context is that I go to a competitive public school that sends probably half of our class to T50s and maybe less than 15% to T30s.
APs: 13 total, mostly 5’s and a few 4’s so far
ACT: 35 Composite (36 English, 34 Math, 36 Reading, 35 Science)
Rigor: Generally rigorous schedule except there are a few problems. I will have only taken Honors Calc even though my school offers both versions of the AP Calc courses. I received a B in regular Precalculus. I didn’t take AP Spanish even though I took accelerated Honors Spanish courses up to Spanish 5. No AP science courses except for AP Enviro, which isn’t really considered difficult.
Letters of Recommendation: I don’t know yet, but they’ll probably be pretty mediocre.
Hooks: N/A

ECs:

  • Debate Team, captain. Lead a nationally ranked debate team. Have a few international debate awards.
  • Founded a program to coach kids in debate. Taught 200 kids and fundraised 5000 dollars.
  • Academic Decathlon, captain. Not super competitive because COVID derailed our plans, but we qualified a team to nationals last year. I specialize in literature and philosophy.
  • Philosophy Club, member. Compete in Ethics Bowl but we don’t really place. Mostly just discuss ethical cases during weekly meets.
  • Independent study of philosophy. I run a small blog where I just write essays on philosophical content as a hobby. I wrote an essay on a philosophy book that placed in a national competition. I read lots of philosophy books (Plato, Aristotle, etc.). Also, I’m self-studying Latin right now if that counts for anything.
  • Internship with State government. Mostly just clerical work though.
  • National English Honors Society. Good chance of becoming president next year.
  • SGA member. Don’t really do much to be honest.
  • Volunteering. I do a lot of volunteering, around 400 hours on record. Various things like tutoring kids, teacher’s assistant at preschool, volunteer debate judge, transcribing historical documents, volunteering at local pet shelter. I got an award for my extensive volunteer work.

I’m confident in my ECs, but things start to fall apart looking at my academic record. I know I have way too many B’s, didn’t take the most rigorous schedule offered, my rank isn’t good enough, and I know my LoRs aren’t going to be saying I’m the greatest student ever like other people seem to have. I know that “chance” posts are generally unrevealing but I want to know if using up my early slot on Williams is a waste of time, or if I should adjust my early strategy to a less competitive school.

If you read this, thank you for your time!

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  1. Do not ever let the breakdown scares you! (CC has a competitive nature. Even for my safety, Indiana U Bloom, everyone on the trend have like at least a 4.0, yet in real life, if you get a 3.5, they are still going to guarantee ur admission)
  2. I think u will have a good shot at Williams.
  3. Ur stats were quite good for many prestigious colleges, just not exceptional for the competitive applicant pool at Williams since vast majority people apply to such institutions are top-tier students.
  4. But 3 is not going to destroy your application at all, you just need to demand interest
  5. WHY ONLY WILLIAMS? Seriously consider if u are willing to withdraw all applications if Williams accepts u. If yes, def go for the ED round.
  6. If ur essay and interest level stand out, then you will have a way better chance at Willams.
  7. Good luck!
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do not allow that post to discourage you from applying to williams. your stats are very good. i remember when i was applying to college, i was absolutely scared to death that i was going to get rejected from every school i applied to, but i ended up getting accepted to my first choice ED. not only did i get accepted to my first choice ED, i got accepted while still being “below average.”

as far as I’m aware, williams doesn’t report the GPAs of students on their common data sets, but you are, in fact, at the 75th percentile based on your ACT score. in other words, in terms of standardized test scores, you’re already above average.

the best advice i can provide as someone who had to go through the process TWICE is to focus on reasons why you believe a college will accept you instead of reasons why you believe a college will reject you. you’re academically gifted and have very nice extracurriculars, but what sets you apart from others? to williams, as per their common data set, an applicant’s character/personal qualities is listed as the same level of importance as his/her GPA, class rank, recommendations, and the rigor of your education (in other words, very). don’t go into the process too doubtful.

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Unless you have a hook, my general feeling is that applying to a very competitive college ED won’t give you a boost unless you are in the top 25% of their students, especially if the college officially doesn’t consider interest. Your profile is pretty good, and you are competitive, but I think that for ED they are more likely to try to get as many of the students who are more likely to get competing offers from competitors.

On the other hand, are there any other colleges which you like as much as Williams? If not, it doesn’t really matter. Unless there is another colleges which you would be happy to attend, even if there was a chance that you would be accepted to Williams RD, then you should apply to Williams ED.

ED is only a good idea for a college which is on the top of your list, not for a “OK, I guess so” college. If there is a college with a higher acceptance rate which you like marginally less than William, but would be willing and comfortable attending and not looking back if you were accepted, in that case, apply to that college ED, especially if it is a college which considers level of interest. If that doesn’t work out, apply to Williams ED2.

The 3.82-3.87 GPA range is “interesting”. It is competitive for almost all colleges, including Williams, but it is in that range in which you need a compelling story. Based on your ECs, you have the ability to do so. Your GPA is within the range in which a good essay and good LoRs make all the difference.

Another VERY important thing at your GPA range is to look at your schools’ Naviance. So my kid had a similar GPA and test scores as yours, and it seemed that every school was either a reach or a safety. Based on her school’s Naviance, nobody have been rejected with even close to her stats in the previous three years from U Minnesota, Wisconsin, UIUC, Purdue, IU, etc, and even UMichigan was a match for kids with her stats from her high school. She was competitive for almost every reach in the Midwest, as well as some places in the SE and NE. But there were colleges in the NE which were no more competitive as these, which had not accepted any students from my kid’s stats (and sometimes with any stats) at all in the time range covered by Naviance.

Basically, if a college knows your high school, and there are connections, a GPA of 3.85 with a strong profile is competitive for almost all reaches, while if there isn’t that connections, a 3.85 may not me competitive for at least the high reaches (acceptance rates of below 10%), even with a strong profile.

So check out how many students with stats similar to yours were accepted to Williams recently. Also ask your GC.

What are the other colleges that you are looking at?

Good luck, you did very well, and whatever happens, you have a lot to be proud of!

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You are a very well qualified candidate for admission to Williams College.

Outstanding ACT score, excellent grades after freshman year, and significant debating EC.

If you feel uncomfortable applying ED to Williams College, then share “Why Williams” so that posters can suggest other schools.

Any other colleges or universities which appeal to you ?

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Williams is extremely difficult to get into without a hook, possibly as hard or harder than HYPSM (Williams takes a much bigger percentage of athletes because it is a smaller school but still has a lot of teams, so you can’t just use raw admission rates). The resume you posted is in the mix but you’ll need to make your essays really, really stand out so that you can rise above the crowd.

I’ll echo what some of the others posters said as well. Are you sure Williams is the right place for you? It can be a little more sporty than similar schools, which doesn’t seem to be your thing. Carleton, Middlebury, Bates, Haverford, Grinnell, Davidson and Hamilton come to mind as similar schools whose vibe you might like as much or more than Williams.

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@BestOfLuckYall
Thanks, good luck to you too! I don’t think Williams tracks demonstrated interest though.

@kalons
Thank you for the advice and congrats on being accepted into your first choice ED!

@MWolf
Williams is my top choice by far. I also like Dartmouth, Brown, and Amherst, but these are equally competitive schools and I would probably fare the same at all four of them. My next choice would be Bowdoin, which is marginally less competitive and probably easier to get to into ED. If I wasn’t so hung up on Williams, I would apply ED to Bowdoin. I believe that Bowdoin offers both ED1 and ED2 whereas Williams only offers ED1, so thats probably going to be my back up plan if Williams straight rejects me early round.
I just took a look at my school’s Naviance for Williams. We’re a competitive public in the Northeast but interest is mostly in UCs and Ivies, so there isn’t exactly a wealth of data. There seems to have been one recruited athlete who got in, but the four other people who got in over the past six years had above 3.94 UW and above 1500 SATs. Which isn’t exactly reassuring.

@Publisher
Why Williams:

  • Community; small class sizes, tutorial style instruction, isolated location, dorm entry system, and interesting traditions contribute to a tight-knit community feel, which also translates to a strong alumni network. This is probably the biggest factor.
  • Location; the Berkshires are beautiful and I would love to spend a lot of time in nature. Lends itself to cool traditions like Mountain Day. Also I like the Massachusetts/Boston areas.
  • Academic rigor; strong focus on undergraduate teaching. Williams is an academically rigorous school without being overly obsessed about grades or cutthroat. Fantastic grad school placements.
  • Some other cool academic quirks like the Oxford exchange program and winter studies.

Some other schools I’m looking at are Brown, Amherst, Dartmouth, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Smith, Grinnell, and Tufts.

@RockySoil
I do think that I’d enjoy going to Williams (see above for “Why Williams”), though I haven’t been able to visit because of the pandemic. Re: the sports culture at Williams – I feel like this would be a good thing because it would push me to join an intramural sport. I’m currently considering some of the schools you mentioned but will take a look at Carleton, Haverford, and Hamilton. Thanks for the suggestions!

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I find your “Why Williams ?” statements to be convincing.

As a potential philosophy major, have you investigated schools based on the strength of this major ?

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Yes, I’m probably going to apply to UMich and Pitt which have top notch philosophy departments. However, my understanding is that the strength of UMich and Pitt’s philosophy departments mainly stems from graduate programs, so I’m looking mostly towards small liberal arts style colleges.

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Does your HS send unhooked students outside the top 10% to schools like Williams? What does your GC think? Will you be able to visit?

You are definitely a qualified candidate, but Williams is a difficult admit for unhooked applicants. Just FYI…Bowdoin’s acceptance rate is lower than Williams and Amherst, but your ED2 strategy for Bowdoin could make sense.

I don’t think Williams’ alumni network is stronger than any of the other schools on your list. All schools will have appealing traditions. Tutorial teaching? Yes, Williams offers tutorial classes, but only 50% of the students take one, and the vast majority of those who do, don’t take a second one. IMO Williams is an academically grind-y school, and also has an athlete/non-athlete divide. Others may have different perceptions.

Have you run Williams’ net price calculator? Is the cost estimate affordable?

If you are certain Williams is your first choice, you should apply ED if it looks to be affordable. Just make sure to spend an adequate amount of time identifying match schools…do you have any of those yet? Identifying reaches is easy, and all the schools you have listed are reaches. You will also need at least one affordable safety.

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when i say demonstrate interest, i meant why you choose a specific progrm (philosophy) in a specific school (williams) not really the campus visits and webinar attendance aspects. I think u should go for it since i thought ur reasons to apply williams are compelling, try to go deeper than the superficial aspect like small class size and good academic reputation - which all people who know williams knows.

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thanks for the congratulations— i know you’ll be fine.

it should also be stated, though, that different ~vibes~ exist at different colleges. for example, the vibe at williams (a northeastern LAC) is different from the vibe at grinnell (a midwestern LAC) is different from the vibe at smith (an HWC).

i go to grinnell, and the overlap between people who applied to grinnell as well as colleges like dartmouth is very small— the schools just don’t have very similar vibes. however, the overlap between people who applied to grinnell as well as colleges like brown is pretty apparent. people just prefer certain environments over others, and that’s okay. just make sure to do your research and find what kind of environment you enjoy the most (which i know will be difficult during a pandemic, but i definitely believe you’ll be able to do it)!

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Why? When your grades are slightly below average for Williams, LoR may have an outsized importance. Can’t you find two teachers who can convincingly say that you are one of the best in many years of their teaching? If you cannot, it may point to a bigger issue.

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FWIW Williams College overlap schools:

Amherst, Brown, Dartmouth, Harvard, Yale, Middlebury, Princeton, & Stanford.

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You have a strong application so you shouldn’t question your admissibility to any school you are interested in, but you should come up with a layered plan. Not every student who gets admitted to the schools you have listed has a perfect academic record taking the most rigorous classes possible. That being said, the top schools in the NESCAC are extremely competitive in general but how tight a squeeze admission wise can vary. In my view they fit into fit into categories mostly based on size. The most difficult are Williams, Amherst & Bowdoin. They are all about the same size (between 1800-2000 students) of which roughly 1/3 are athletes. Those are real tight admits. The next rung I would put Middlebury, Tufts and Wesleyan. Middlebury is about 2600 students, Wesleyan 3200 and Tufts 5900. It’s way less of a tight squeeze with those three if you aren’t an athlete or lack some other hook. The good news is that if you decide to go for it with an ED to Williams, you can back it up with an ED2 to Bowdoin, Middlebury, Tufts or even Wesleyan if you have interest. The one caveat there is Bowdoin is a tighter fit than the others that offer ED2, so factor that in. If you decided to go this route I would also apply to a couple EA schools (Michigan, Pittsburgh and UVA?) and also have 3 or 4 target / safety type schools to apply to for regular decision just to cover yourself. It’s just not a good idea to have a list of exclusively Ivy League and top NESCACs even with a competitive resume like yours. Good luck.

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@Mwfan1921
I’m not sure about outside the top 10%, but my school does quite well sending students to top schools, most of them being unhooked as we aren’t an elite private prep school. I do agree that I probably have a rosier perception of Williams than most, so I’m going to research other colleges. My family is fortunate enough that we’re able to fully foot the cost of Williams but my financial safety would be Pitt and my state school. I have match schools, mostly less selective LACs, but I didn’t list them above.

@BestOfLuckYall
I see what you mean, I’ll definitely try to reach out to some Williams alumni and ask about their experiences.

@kalons
There is definitely a different vibe at, say, Brown and Dartmouth. I think the main thing for me is a tight-knit community and a good undergraduate education which is why I’m a little more lax with the schools I apply to. If you don’t mind me asking, how’s your experience at Grinnell been so far? Grinnell is one of my top choices but I’ve heard things about there being a sort of “stress culture”. Also, would you say that most Grinnell students stay in the Midwest after they graduate, or do they go work in NYC/Boston area?

@ArtsyKidDad
I don’t doubt that my teachers won’t say good things about me, but this is to be expected of all LoRs of Williams applicants. But it’s quite difficult to legitimately be one of their best students in all their years of teaching when my school annually sends a few dozen kids to Ivies. Although I work hard in class, regularly participate, and make good grades, the pandemic made it kind of difficult to form bonds with teachers. I know these are just excuses but for now I’m a bit pessimistic. I’m still going to try my best to secure good LoRs.

@EricStratton
I agree, thanks for the advice! I’m applying to both UMich and UVA EA, and Pitt rolling so its kind of cool that recommended them to me. I suppose the plan right now is Williams ED, Bowdoin ED2, UMich and UVA EA, Pitt rolling, and the rest (including my matches and safeties) RD.

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“Best” is a wide category - I meant one of the best in something relevant/unique, a lot easier than declaring you the champion of the world :wink:
I’m speaking from a similar experience of my D, she found two teachers from outside her obvious strengths to nicely supplement her successful ED1 application to Pomona this year. Her math teacher didn’t declare her the next Fields Medal candidate but her compliments must have been intriguing - D is into languages and music.

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Oh, I see – thanks for the clarification, and congrats to your daughter! Pomona is a really awesome college.

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i totally get that. the community of a college was also a big factor in where i chose to apply as well. however, although i could see myself being happy at other colleges (kenyon, davidson, hamilton, etc.), i can’t certainly say i would be as happy as i am at grinnell, if that makes sense? the “fit” aspect is so weird— it’s like a college either has it or it doesn’t, you know?

my grinnell experience has been overwhelmingly positive. i ED’ed to the college without ever having visited (which is a VERY big commitment and one that most people do not recommend doing) and have never looked back. there was a time when i thought of transferring at the beginning of the pandemic, but it really had nothing to do with the college and everything to do with me being nervous about being quite far from home and my family, especially during a time like this. i hurdled through that, though, and have been doing just fine (with my family’s support).

the “stress” culture is arguably characteristic of the STEM departments here. STEM classes are tough, and the workload can be heavy, i won’t lie. thanks to the open curriculum, though, you never have to take a STEM class if you don’t want to. i know people who have never set foot in Noyce (our science center), lmao.

also, i won’t lie and say i’ve never been drowning in work and still felt like i wasn’t doing enough because other people were doing more, because i definitely have. when you’re surrounded by so many exceptional people who are just as, if not more, intelligent and hard-working than you are, it can be difficult to grapple with, at least it was in my case. however, i also got over that with time.

in terms of where students end up: it’s difficult to gauge. many students go on to graduate school after grinnell, oftentimes to top programs in the country. according to the class of 2019’s outcome data, the most popular states among the respondents were california, illinois, iowa, massachusetts, new york, minnestoa, and wisconsin. i hope this helped!

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Thank you.
And don’t forget about WOW!

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