I would think that of these schools, Williams would most value breadth simply because it’s the smallest. While every school, LACS included, love to put that article in the alumni magazine about the amazing class that just matriculated (include Olympic medalists, Carnegie Hall perfromers, solo sailor across the Atlantic, etc descriptions here), a smaller school needs kids who can fulfill several needs. The lax goalie who plays the oboe, the crew cox who does improv, the debater who paints - these are the kids who connect different parts of the student body to each other and who allow a small school to field teams as well as have excellent performing arts, and dozens of activities.
As for your daughter, if her primary goal is to attend a top school, her odds are probably best at Williams ED. If another school offers something that she wants and can’t get at Williams, it doesn’t sound like she should ED at Williams.
I am just going to chime in here and build on what another poster said. The Williams legacy interview/meeting is critical. If your D and you listen well you will likely have a very good idea of where she stands re: admission not only to Williams but you are also likely to get some good ideas for other colleges to apply to. When my D had her meeting in 2012 it was with Director of Admission and he spent 45 min with her and another 15 after I was invited into room. He reviewed her test scores, resume, transcript. Basically he indicated minimum test scores of 34 ACT and mid 700s on the required SAT subject tests are necessary barring other hooks (like arts talent or recruited athlete) that might overcome weaker scores. And of course rigorous coursework is absolutely needed. He was not encouraging of an ED app as he said legacy is only the slightest bump. But more importantly he was 100% accurate in predicting her results at the other colleges on her list. Just listen carefully and you and your D will likely get a lot of valuable info from that meeting.
Every non hooked admit at HPYS is massively high achieving. All have near perfect GPA and test scores. That is the whole point for goodness sakes. That might be enough to have a reasonable chance at most LAC’s but is no where near enough at schools with admit rates from 4.8-7%. Successful admission to the very tippy top schools including Williams is about getting yourself out of the standard admit pool. Legacy is only a mini hook but that might be enough and is the applicants best bet by far. Tons of kids with near perfect scores and very good EC’s get completely shut out from HPYS and other top schools.
Yes that is a better way to describe the process but the meaning is the same. One’s chance for admission if your application remains in the standard pool is exceedingly low at HPYS and a few others even if you have perfect or near perfect GPA/SAT and excellent but standard EC’s. There are a number of separate pools
My D had her Williams consultation earlier this month, and the Dean she met with did try to sell her on the strength of the STEM curriculum at Williams and the benefits of a smaller liberal arts college vs. a larger university. D did most of the talking during the hour long interview, and they reviewed her coursework to date, grades (mostly As w/a couple Bs her sophomore year), her senior year course selections (AP heavy), test scores (1550 SAT taken once, SAT subject matter 800 Math II, 800 Physics), internships and ECs and the list of other colleges she was interested in (a few Ivys, our state flagship and an in-state safety). My wife and I were brought in afterwards for a few minutes. The AO told us that if there was another school that was her #1 choice D should go ahead and apply to that school EA and then Williams RD. He went further telling her that basically it didn’t matter to her chances of admission if she applied ED or RD. He said that while there may be an advantage for non-legacy students to apply ED it wouldn’t make a difference in our D’s case. He told us that while she certainly had a “credible” chance at the Ivys on her list, he also recommended a number of other colleges including Tufts, Oberlin, Wesleyan and Pomona.
Afterwards, my wife thought he was hinting that our D might not get into Williams by making the other LAC recommendations in conjunction w/the comment that it wouldn’t make a difference to her chances whether she applied ED or RD. My interpretation was the exact opposite. I thought that the AO was hinting that she likely would get in and he was just trying to make helpful recommendations of other schools that might suit D given her interests. I thought the maintaining legacy preference in RD comment and the fact that the interview ran so long (we were told to expect about a half hour) were good signs. Maybe one of us should have asked point blank about her chances but I just didn’t want to be that parent. It is so tempting at this point for my D to apply ED even though Williams is her second choice currently because she can see herself very happy there. However, she rarely takes the easy path, and I fully expect she’ll likely apply to her top choice early action and Williams RD. There certainly is nothing easy about college admissions these days. Like most parents here, we’ll just have to let the process play out.
I would interpret those comments to mean that the AO felt that she is a very strong candidate and has a very good chance of getting in RD and ED. The comments about the other schools reflect the reality that even with very, very good chances, there is no such thing as a sure thing when it comes to college admissions.
If another school is her first choice and she would always wonder if she had not applied early to Williams whether she would have gotten in there, I think your best course of action is to let her apply there and see what happens. It sounds like she has a real shot at any of them and that Williams won’t hold it against her for waiting for the RD round if it doesn’t work out. Remember that an AO cannot guarantee what will happen in committee although he/she has a pretty good idea of how it usually plays out.
Agree and applying EA is good strategy and a must for UofM so keep that in mind. But if there is a clear choice I like ED especially if the cost potentially lines up…but all the colleges mentioned are quite expensive.
@KnightsRidge Had a very similar experience with my DD at Amherst last summer. She had high scores but she hadn’t decided if it was her first choice. Director of Admissions doing the interview told her not to worry about applying ED vs RD. She ended up getting in early elsewhere.
Son had similar situation. He had baseball “offers” from 4 tip top LAC’s and similar objective stat’s (GPA a bit higher at 4.0 UW), so he was competitive for HYPS without baseball. While he really liked the LACs, he wanted a larger school experience and did not want to be left wondering “what if”, so he applied to Yale SCEA (does have legacy status there) and fortunately got in. The decision to “go for it” was made easier because he applied to and got in an honors program at our state flagship university which is on a rolling admissions cycle and therefore allowed under the SCEA rules.
Given your daughter’s stat’s and the tone of the discussion you described with the William’s Dean, I would agree with your interpretation. It is also sounding like in post #67 your daughter is headed in the same direction. If that is the case, I’d consider hedging your bets by applying to an honors type program, in-state or out, as a backup early.
First, decide where you want to shoot your one limited early bullet. That sounds like it should not be Williams. Pick Stanford, Princeton or one of the typical big ED schools (Penn, Duke, NW, etc.) if one of those comes into focus by November 1 and you want to play the max odds ED casino game.
Second, focus on the schools you can apply to EA under the rules of the SCEA/ED school you select. State schools (Michigan, Virginia, Cal) are typically allowed. Depending on the single bullet choice, certain privates will be allowed – MIT, USC, Gtown, ND for example. Make sure you check on the rules at BOTH schools to make sure you are permitted to apply.
Third, apply to Williams RD (unless you are one and done with an ED). And then also fill in with additional RD schools to the extent you want based upon the feedback from the earlies.
Key thing to avoid is just doing one early app, missing that target, then having to do a ton of RD apps, and then having to wait until late March until the feedback starts to roll in. That’s a rough ride that you want to avoid.
Actually, I think the “rough ride” is ending up attending a college you selected out of some game theory scheme but which you otherwise wouldn’t have selected and don’t really want to attend.
I think a lot of people make this very complicated. If Williams is the hands down first choice, it gets an early application. If it not, and if there is a clear cut hands down first choice, THAT gets the early application.
There are thousands of kids who get into college in the RD round (apparently not on CC though) even if they’ve “wasted” their legacy opportunity or hole in one or ace in the hole or whatever metaphor you want to call it.
The kid who ends up at Penn because that was the only legacy college in the family that explicitly said “if you want to come here and you are a legacy you need to apply early” - so kid applied early and was accepted but REALLY wanted to be at Middlebury or Brown-- where’s the upside in that?
OP, in your case if you have a clear #1 choice, I’d apply there early espe since you were fortunate enough to get a good idea about your chances getting into Williams RD. If you didn’t, you might always wonder “what if”.
For others who are legacies at other schools especially those that don’t provide these legacy counseling sessions or where the legacy school is a close #2, rational HS seniors can choose differently. The elite college admissions game is clearly getting tougher and tougher each year so, game theory scheme or not, these are real world decisions with real world consequences. With all the stories floating around CC of top students getting shut out of all but their safety schools (or worse), I can understand why some top students would be tempted to use their legacy status and use their one SCEA/ED bullet on their legacy college. I know one Penn legacy kid who also has a brother there who decided to apply early to Princeton and now is resigned to attending Rutgers honors program. Certainly no tragedy but in hindsight that kid regrets not applying ED to Penn.
Agree with blossom - I think people overthink this game theory stuff. Your daughter is obviously a strong candidate anywhere, but will likely be applying to some schools with very low admissions rates. If she loves Williams she can apply ED, but otherwise I recommend applying EA or rolling admissions at schools she likes and that offer it. The best safety school is one that offers early admission. My older son (Harvard legacy) was asked at his interview why he didn’t apply SCEA there. He told them quite frankly because it wasn’t his first choice. They accepted him anyway, most of these schools don’t need to play games to up their acceptance rates.
(Penn BTW is a school that says legacies should apply ED for an admissions boost.)
D let us know today that she decided to follow her heart and is applying EA to Princeton. She’s also working on her RD applications to Williams (and that evil college located in Amherst, MA) among others. She doesn’t want to live life with the regret of not trying. Her HS guidance counselor says she has a fighting chance…so we’ll see how this plays out.