<p>Consolation,</p>
<p>My concern is not that kids need less intellectual challenge in high school, but that with 5+ APs, sports and music, most don't have much time to hang out with their friends, explore their neighborhoods, have spontaneous experiences, engage in long conversations about non-academic topics, contemplate their navels, dream and imagine and be creative. I'm sure there are some kids who do it all, but I think most of them exist only on CC. ;)</p>
<p>I guess I had not carefully thought through everything the woman was saying when I posted the letter after reading it rather quickly, and I was mostly focused on her message that there are many great schools which some people (in particular, Princeton Alumni Weekly readers) may not be familiar with. I do see how the fact that her own daughter attends Princeton as a legacy is rather ironic considering what her message is, so that she does come across as somewhat smug. Oh well .... at least it is an interesting topic for discussion.</p>
<p>Well, I didn't read the letter as smug. I read her to say (between the lines) that, had it not been for legacy, her D1 would not have gotten into P either, and instead would have joined the 'droves' in receiving a fine education elsewhere. I read it as the voice of experience.</p>
<p>Bay, I know what you mean. I think it is a continuation of the "over-scheduled child" thing in some ways. It doesn't apply to my kid, but I gather it applies to others...activities such as dreaming and having long conversations, not to mention reading books not on a syllabus, are regarded as time wasting and said to reveal a lack of discipline. Colleges want to see that passion, after all, and you had better start pursuing that passion with a vengeance by age 14 at the latest if you want to rack up enough accomplishments by age 17 to be a "winner" and get into the highly selctive college of your choice! No exploring allowed. No participating in something you enjoy but aren't great at allowed. If there's something you like to do, you have to found an official club and set yourself up as the president.</p>
<p>The equivalent of playing softball in somebody's back yard no longer exists. It has to be an official league with schedules and adult coaches who get to CUT the underachieving 8 yr olds, but most of all there must be RANKINGS! If not, how will we know who is the BEST?? </p>
<p>Striving for excellence is a good thing, but the way in which it can be twisted is dispiriting. On the other hand, it seems like an awful lot of kids who <em>aren't</em> over-scheduled are devoting that time to texting and facebook and myspace and hyperventilating about today's ludicrously inflated prom stuff and the like, rather than thinking great thoughts and reading good books, or having long philosophical conversations about stuff. (Remember when proms were held in decorated gyms, instead of hotel ballrooms, and there was no thought of stretch Hummer limousines?)</p>
<p>Maybe I just need more coffee. <g></g></p>
<p>Kids in many public shools load their schedule with AP classes to maintain the class rank. I prefer the high school limit the number of AP classes. Too many APs does more harm than good. Each students should take no more than 8 APs. Instead of taking every available AP classes, students should have more time to explore at most two subjects that they excel in or explore something else outside of the classroom. Out of 37 college board AP classes, a lot of them don't contribute to develop the critical thinking of the kids. Many of them require a lot of memorization to score high on the multiple choice part of the AP exam. One of the subjects that is very important to student's critical thinking is not on the list: philosophy. Also, the goal of the AP classes is to help the kids getting familiar with college work. But the way the AP subjects taught in HS is diffenrent than they are taught in colleges. In colleges, professors rarely give mutiple choice tests and many don't ask students to cramp on the entire semester class materials for final exams. I think the College Board, the money making machine is the one to be blamed here.</p>
<p>First, with all of this very broad, general discussion of AP's, remember how differently they can be taught. At some schools, it's the norm--and a manageable one--for top students to take whatever AP courses are available. As Consolation said, it's where these students find the most interesting course content, the most committed classmates, and some of the strongest teachers. There are other schools at which AP's are capped (various reasons). I can't even fathom some of the schedules I see posted on CC, because I went to a HS where even the most incredible students took mixes of regular/honors/AP, and were actively discouraged/prevented from over-burdening themselves. It doesn't necessarily mean that my HS was better or worse, or that I was more or less prepared for college. Just means we did it differently. There's a huge variance in how AP's are taught/treated at different schools.</p>
<p>Second...</p>
<p>
[quote]
Colleges want to see that passion, after all, and you had better start pursuing that passion with a vengeance by age 14 at the latest if you want to rack up enough accomplishments by age 17 to be a "winner" and get into the highly selctive college of your choice! No exploring allowed. No participating in something you enjoy but aren't great at allowed. If there's something you like to do, you have to found an official club and set yourself up as the president.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I guess this is an easy conclusion to draw from the stats profiles and the application results of many CC students, but CC doesn't represent the average anything, and that includes the average applicant, the average accepted student, or the average reject. Have your kid spend a night at a few "highly selective" schools. What he'll more than likely come back reporting is that the kids are nice, interesting, and basically normal. They didn't just become normal after getting to college, either. High-achieving? Of course. Driven? Usually. But I know Ivy Leaguers, HYP included, who spent their summers at traditional summer camps, sleeping until noon and lounging around the house, getting together with friends, practicing their non-Olympic sports, working at coffee shops, taking summer courses in subjects that interested them, traveling with their families...whatever. They're smart kids who worked hard and deserved their acceptances, but they're not 'untouchable.' Obviously, this isn't to say that students at top schools are really lazy, indifferent kids, or that there's anything wrong with being a superachiever, or whatever. But for every cancer-research-since-7th-grade kid who gets rejected from a top school, there may be two summer-camp-and-JV-soccer kids who get in. There's just so much more to the process than we can see here, and no formula--however simple and obvious or complex and impressive--will change the fact.</p>
<p>Going back to the original post, I read the letter like Treetop--"voice of experience." For starters, she's writing in a Princeton publication...it made sense to reference her daughter. But as a Princeton grad with one daughter following the same path and another whose course is undetermined, what motivation does this woman have to hold the position that she does? If anything, I think it's more interesting to hear "I went to Princeton and I realize that you can get a great education at a lot of places" than to hear "I got rejected from all my 'highly-selective' schools, but I realize that you can get a great education at a lot of places." I think that the point is absolutely true either way, but the speaker of the latter statement has a 'stake' in what she says, while the speaker of the former statement doesn't. Maybe my interpretation comes from the fact that I have no current stake in the admissions process, but I just don't see "smug."</p>
<p>I didn't see her letter as smug in a nasty way, but there is definitely some complacency there. </p>
<p>Her younger D's safety, her ace in the pocket, is NW! She didn't send out her apps wondering if she'd get in anywhere due to the current crush, the fact she's female, competition from her stellar h.s. classmates, etc., etc. She actually is in a worry-free situation.</p>
<p>That said, though, I acknowledge that I might be put off because I am not among the audience the letter writer was targeting. I can imagine there indeed would be some Princeton alumni reading the letter that would consider NW --- and the excellent Midwestern state universities --- a huge disappointment (if they even deigned to have children apply there) and maybe needed to hear from one of their own that they are not (or needn't be.)</p>
<p>I wonder if the original article, "Admission Obsession," got a lot of mail in response. I'd be curious what some of the other letters said.</p>
<p>Great post, Student615. </p>
<p>I have a D at HYP, and before I found CC (which was after D was admitted), I had no idea that parents/students built their lives around what they think HYP is looking for. My D just lived her life the way she wanted, and that included some APs, great grades and a serious passion. We neither knew nor cared what HYP was looking for, but it turned out she was it.</p>
<p>Its very difficult to make a child into someone they are not, but if we give them time to find and define themselves, they will generally end up happily where they belong, IMHO.</p>
<p>Can I make a confession? I am coming to absolutely loathe the word passion. Passion should be something that comes to you unaware, that compels you beyond all reason. Gabriel Garcia Marquez would shudder to see this usage. Shudder.</p>
<p>Some high school kids may, in fact, have passions. But few. And the concept of looking for, and then finding your passion, withers the little bits of poetic soul I have left.</p>
<p>^^^^^^LOL Great Post!!!!!!!!!!!</p>
<p>Thanks Alumother,</p>
<p>I was starting to feel like a real grouch. Both the "passion" thing and the "fit" thing have been getting on my nerves for quite a while. It's not that I don't believe in them, but isn't college supposed to be a time to experience NEW things. Things you may DEVELOP a passion for? Do you HAVE to know what you're "passionate" about going in? And going to a place you "fit" perfectly seems like the perfect way to avoid growing and stretching yourself. Right now my daughter's "passion" is making microscopic oragami cranes. I see the admissions officers falling over themselves to get her already....</p>
<p>Hey Andi! Long time no see. When Andison graduates I hope you can bear to give us all an update...</p>
<p>eg1 - My son was absolutely OBSESSED by origami as a little boy. I mean to the point where he could make an origami cockroach, an origami dinosaur, an origami god knows what. I say encourage her, who knows, she can fill her application envelope with 1000 cranes....</p>
<p>Both my kids are consumed by the same passion - sleep!</p>
<p>Sign me up amongst those who are close to having officially had it with "passion" and "fit." <g></g></p>
<p>I also have to confess that every time someone writes that kids "end up where they ought to be" and "things happen for a reason" I grind my teeth. It's not long before the phrase "love your safety" will make me run screaming from the room! <g></g></p>
<p>^^Alumother, eg1, and mammall,</p>
<p>I think you can count on "passion" being passe already, in college admissions. It's filtered down to the American Girl dolls. The bio of Mia, the current doll of the year includes, "When Mia finally finds the courage to pursue her passion for figure skating . . . "</p>
<p>For purposes of this post, my Username should really be QuantMech(mom)</p>
<p>(Not ignoring Consolation, this was a cross-post, and I agree.)</p>
<p>Quant Mech -lol re Mia...</p>
<p>Merilee Jones, the admissions director who got sacked from MIT for lying, gave a very funny speech in which she criticized the current attitude of pursuing a highly ranked passion as ,"Most teenagers have no passion for anything except sex." I wonder if she's a private CC now?</p>
<p>Yup - sleep and sex. Those are the twin passions of every 17-year-old on the planet. </p>
<p>Has anyone written a humorous parent guide to college admissions? Much material here.</p>
<p>
It took this to bring you to such an epiphany? What have you been smokin' all along? ;)</p>
<p>My opinion of P hasn't changed since I visited there during my older brother's college tour in 1968. And P hasn't changed a whit since then, either.</p>
<p>^^ How's that?</p>
<p>I personally never had a passion, and I'm still looking for one in middle age. But I do believe that many kids are in fact, passionate about a lot of things. The problem I see is that parents/schools/zeitgeist attempt to encourage or even force kids to contrive a passion about something that will give them an edge for college, not what they are really interested in. </p>
<p>I think origami is a very worthwhile passion. It involves creativity, small motor skills and patience. One of my Ds is very passionate about children - she loves them, loves to babysit, volunteers as an elementary school teachers aide twice a week and with the disabled once a week. (And not for CS hours -she finished her required number two years ago and does not keep track of them). Her passion won't get her into college, but so what, it is who she is, makes her happy and does some good for other people. And she is fortunate to have the time to pursue it. If she was taking 5 APs plus other college-oriented ECs, she would not have been able to do it (but other kids might).</p>