Li sues Princeton: response to citygirlsmom, and selective others

<p>Just want to add a report that can be viewed by everyone (as opposed to the WSJ-only subscribers) that was posted in another forum recently.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/11/13/news/16544.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/11/13/news/16544.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Jian Li did say, "I'm just doing this because I want to do something about the situation. I want to bring attention to it."</p>

<p>Princeton's response was what I've been trying to get at:
"Princeton maintains that its admission policies do not discriminate against Asian-American or members of any other race. "We treat each application individually and we do not discriminate on the base of race or national origin," Cliatt said. "To the contrary, we seek to enroll and do enroll classes that are diverse by a multitude of measures." "</p>

<p>The authors of the Princeton study that Reddune referred to did admit that, "academic merit is only one kind of merit that elite college admission officers consider when deciding whom to accept." </p>

<p>Also, to clarify, he wasn't rejected by the top schools, but waitlisted at some of them (including Princeton). Jian Li admits that his choice to complain about Princeton was, "kind of arbitrary" he said.</p>

<p>Very interesting read.</p>

<p>There's no fairness in college admissions. Kids from North Dakota can probably get into Princeton with lower stats than kids from NJ, but Princeton finds that the kids from North Dakota can bring a point of view which serves to enrich the class experience of others. And so it goes.</p>

<p>By Reddune:</p>

<p>"Li is suing because of racial discrimination, not because he believes students with perfect score is entitle to admissions."</p>

<p>SO what is the basis for his complaint then? He didn't get in, he says people with lower scores did, so that mean he was discreminated against?</p>

<p>That implies that he wants admission t be number driven, to think otherwise, how do you think otherwise?</p>

<p>What situation is he referring to? that people with "perfect" scores get rejected? duh</p>

<p>One of the problems that I see with Li's lawsuit just on face value is that Princeton is going to be able that they have admitted Asian students with less than perfect scores for his admitted class.</p>

<p>Li is using the previous study by Espenshade, Chung, and Walling ‘‘Admission Preferences for Minority Students, Athletes, and Legacies at Elite Universities.’’ Social Science Quarterly 85(5):1422–46, 2004 as a basis that Princeton has discriminated against him because he is Asian.</p>

<p>Objective. This study examines how preferences for different types of applicants exercised by admission offices at elite universities influence the number and composition of admitted students. Methods. Logistic regression analysis is used to link information on the admission decision for 124,374 applications to applicants' SAT scores, race, athletic ability, and legacy status, among other variables. Results. Elite universities give added weight in admission decisions to applicants who have SAT scores above 1500, are African American, or are recruited athletes. A smaller, but still important, preference is shown to Hispanic students and to children of alumni. The athlete admission "advantage" has been growing, while the underrepresented minority advantage has declined. </p>

<p>Conclusions. Elite colleges and universities extend preferences to many types of students, yet affirmative action-the only preference given to underrepresented minority applicants-is the one surrounded by the most controversy.</p>

<p>Findings:</p>

<p>Model 1 is estimated using only those cases that report race and SAT score. The odds ratios are roughly the same in the two models, apart from the effect of being a non-U.S. citizen. A comparison of the other models in Table 6 with Model 1 shows that each set of interaction terms is significant at the 0.001 level. The penalty for scoring less than 1200 on the SAT is significantly greater for African-American and Hispanic students than the penalty for white students who score less than 1200 2). Similarly, the reward (i.e., increased likelihood of admission) that is produced by scoring more than 1300 is significantly smaller for African-American and especially for Hispanic students than the reward for white students who score more than 1300. </p>

<p>Models 5 and 6 add athlete and legacy status, respectively, to Model 4.*** Being a recruited athlete significantly improves one's chances of being admitted to an elite university. The odds of acceptance for athletes are four times as large as those for nonathletes. Put differently, the athletic advantage is roughly comparable to having SAT scores in the 1400s instead of the 1200s. Legacy applicants also receive preferential treatment in admissions. Children or other close relatives of alumni have nearly three times the likelihood of being accepted as nonlegacies.*** The SAT effect is somewhat "steeper" when athlete status is controlled, but it changes little when legacy status is added. These results are partly explained by the fact that athletes in the applicant pools have lower average SAT scores than nonathletes (1298 vs. 1335), whereas there is a smaller gap between legacies (1350) and nonlegacies (1332).</p>

<p>*** the largest admission preferences are conferred on applicants who have SAT scores above 1400, who are African American or Hispanic, and who are athletes or legacies. ***</p>

<p>The athlete advantage is weaker than the preference for African Americans, but stronger than the preference for Hispanic or legacy applicants. The legacy preference, while substantial, is less than that shown to Hispanics. Using the estimated logistic regression coefficients, it is possible to convert the magnitude of these preferences to a common SAT metric.*** The bonus for African-American applicants is roughly equivalent to an extra 230 SAT points (on a 1600-point scale), to 185 points for Hispanics, 200 points for athletes, and 160 points for children of alumni. The Asian disadvantage is comparable to a loss of 50 SAT points.***</p>

<p>*** The biggest flaw with this study overall is that it speaks to colleges would prefer to have and not what is actually happening in admissions at these schools (and there is a big difference between the 2). ***</p>

<p>While I would prefer to be independently wealthy, the reality is that I am going to get up in the morning and go to work becasue I don't want to live on the street. Just looking at the posters on the chances thread on CC, most would "prefer" to be admitted to and attend Harvard or some other elite institution, but what actually happens in the admissions process tells a different story. People are not admitted, people are admitted and can't afford the school, people turn down the school for a better financial opportunity at another school or a host of other things.


Most elite schools (the ivies, AWS) don't give athlethic scholarships. Although these schools have a "preference" toward admitting this type of student, there is nothing in the study that indicates that this actually happens. An African American student who is a recruited athlete and has SAT scores over 1400 although 'preferred by elite schools " will in actuality have many options including and being more likely to to accept a full ride at a school that would give athletic/academic scholarships in a school that would definitely give them more exposure in their sport (ex: Duke/ Stanford) than to pay to attend an Ivy because they do not give either athletic or merit money.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>Espenshade, Chung, and Walling conclude their article by stating:</p>

<p>The relative weights assigned to different student abilities are in constant motion, and our data indicate that admission officers at elite universities are placing a declining weight on belonging to an underrepresented minority student group, whereas the admission advantage accruing to athletes has been growing. By 1997, in fact, being a recruited athlete mattered more than any other type of admission preference we have examined. A subsequent article in this journal will consider the opportunity cost of admission preferences (Espenshade and Chung, forthcoming). Who are the winners and losers from current admission practices?</p>

<p>Examining preferences for recruited athletes and children of alumni in the context of admission bonuses for underrepresented minority applicants helps to situate affirmative action in a broader perspective. Many different student characteristics are valued by admission officers and receive extra weight in highly competitive admissions. *** It is all part of a process that views academically selective colleges and universities as picking and choosing from many different pools or queues in order to create a first-year class that best advances institutional values and objectives.***</p>

<p>Espenshade and Chung’s study basically shows a halo effect and because it is a Princeton study, there could possibly be no problems and every one takes it as gospel when infact there was an article last week that stated Espenshade and Chung’s own data was contridictory.</p>

<p>There was an article in Chronicle of Higher Education 6-21-2006 By PAULA WASLEY
that states:</p>

<p>State Bans on Affirmative Action Have Been of Little Benefit to Asian-American Students, Report Says</p>

<p>Contrary to predictions in a widely cited 2005 study that said Asian-American students were the biggest losers in affirmative action, those students made only minor gains at law schools when the practice was banned in three states, according to a new study.</p>

<p>The article can be found at:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.advancingequality.org/files/kidderarticle.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.advancingequality.org/files/kidderarticle.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>One of the major points of the study says;

[quote]
</p>

<p>Espenshade and Chung’s inattention to the distinction
between negative action and affirmative action effectively marginalizes
APAs and contributes to a skewed and divisive public discourse about affirmative action, one in which APAs are falsely portrayed as conspicuous adversaries of diversity in higher education.</p>

<p>***
The problem is that Espenshade and Chung’s study is internally
contradictory: their research design confounds the role of negative action
against APAs with the role of affirmative action for African Americans and
Latinos, yet the research question they posed was about the “impact of
affirmative action” and their conclusion that APAs “would gain the most”
appears to attribute causation to affirmative action per se (or at the very least, Espenshade and Chung’s blurry conclusion will mislead many reasonable readers into believing that a strong causal claim about affirmative action has been made). ***

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What one must remember that when it comes to elite college admission it never has been a system that was soley based on merit (it started out based on who you were related to and how much money you had and the student population was overwhelmingly rich white men)</p>

<p>Now the shift has been to have a diverse population that realizes that learning happens both inside and out side of the classroom and it takes a variety of multiple intelligences (not simply scores and grades) to make up a community that carries out the school's institutional mission. </p>

<p>As other's have mentioned Li was not short when it came down to the quantitative factors to be admitted in to the schools where he was denied admission. However, he may have fallen short where it came down to the qualitative factors. It would be one thing is Princeton was alone in stating that Li was not a good fit for their school, but they were not the only as 4 other colleges/universities came to the same conclusion.</p>

<p>citygirlsmom,
Maybe Li had excellent ECs in addition to his scores? I've said this before, excellent scores and ECs are NOT mutually exclusive.</p>

<p>HELLO PEOPLE, How did Li get accepted to Yale then? Based on his test scores??? I don't think so. He must have had atleast pretty good essays and EC's to have been accepted to Yale. Yale most definitely does not accept people just based on their test scores. Just food for thought.</p>

<p>Anyway, I also wanted to mention that I have heard this rumor that all the Ivy League schools come together and tell each other which applicants they are accepting so that one school doesn't waste a possible seat that could be someone elses when another ivy league is accepting that student. Is this true? This would make a lot of sense in Li's case.</p>

<p>You know what's weird? I am applying to Princeton early, I am Asian (Chinese), and I go to the same high school that Jian Li did.</p>

<p>Honestly, does everyone think there are only 2000 superbly qualified first-year applicants to the top schools that get in everywhere? The reality is that this is NOT true - there are thousands of these applicants, and where they get in is to some extent a matter of luck. After all, I doubt you could argue that the admissions criteria at Yale are much different than at Princeton, Harvard, Stanford and Penn.</p>

<p>I've had a couple alumni interviews from top schools, including Yale. When I asked them what makes their education at that school so special to them, they both said their classmates made the difference, that they learned more from the people around them than in the classroom. </p>

<p>I'm taking a couple classes at Princeton right now. Yes, we learn material from our professors and study for their exams and perform the required lab exercises, but all that is generally the same no matter where you go. Any legitimate professor can explain some concepts to a group of students. But the difference is your peers - the conversations you have when walking to class, studying for tests together, or while waiting for a scale in the weighing room. I've met people from all over the country - from all over the world - and lots of what we talk about is centered around learning about how we're different - the foods we eat, the music we listen to, our political beliefs. It would be pretty boring if half of everyone I saw was Asian, came from New Jersey, and wanted to major in physics. Or if all the physics majors were Asian.</p>

<p>This is pretty hard to describe. But it's something you can't really understand (usually) unless if you've experienced it for yourself. I used to be strongly against affirmative action - I figured only the smartest and most active people should get in (still considering non-tangibles like activities and essays and recommendations). But I still feel it would be boring if everyone looked the same or came from the same place or had the same high income.</p>

<p>I don't think this whole getting-to-know-each-other-by-sharing-our-differences concept is isolated. I went to a selective program over the summer that probably implemented affirmative action policies. I had good friends who were Asian, Indian, African, Caribbean, and Caucasian, and I learned something new from each of them. Sure, half of our conversations were mostly generic or whatever, but the fact that everyone had a different story to tell forced a sense of appreciation and respect upon each of us. </p>

<p>I attribute such experiences to the admissions committees actively seeking out people with different backrounds and interests and aspirations who have something unique to add. Yes, everyone is unique, but 50 people from all 6 habitable continents in similar proportions will be far more interesting than 50 people mostly from 2 continents. And that, I think, is worth the consequent randomness in admissions.</p>

<p>Another minor observation: I doubt that East Asians and South Asians perform at similar levels, quantifiable-merit-ly speaking. For example, I'm in Columbia's SHP, and almost everyone in my class is East Asian. I think there are more Caucasians than South Asians.</p>

<p>
[quote]
HELLO PEOPLE, How did Li get accepted to Yale then? Based on his test scores??? I don't think so. He must have had atleast pretty good essays and EC's to have been accepted to Yale. Yale most definitely does not accept people just based on their test scores. Just food for thought.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So if you're admitted to Yale, you have to be admitted to Princeton?
That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. </p>

<p>TONS of people with great scores, miles of e/c lists, good recommendations, good essays don't get into certain schools while getting into other schools. I know so many people (if you insist, a lot of asians too) that were accepted by MIT but not Caltech or vice versa, were accepted to Harvard but not Yale. These admissions officers are not robots, they will not choose you automatically for good scores and even good essays. </p>

<p>I would totally support Li if he had overheard the Princeton admissions committee saying, "not another ASIAN with perfect scores and flawless e/cs! let's dump this guy and move on to AA."
How can he dare blame a group for discriminating against him when he doesn't even know why he was rejected.</p>

<p>does this lawsuit count as an ec? he's not just 'a set of numbers' anymore.</p>

<p>you want boatrockin you got boatrockin.
(Maybe Princeton and harvard can't handle this firecracker power. Yale likes to play with tough guys, reformed terrorists, badboy eventual presidents.)</p>

<p>You nailed it, Fantastic. There's such a blind spot in the failure to notice all the other rejections (including Asians, including Caucasians with equally fine scores, & even some URM's with close scores) -- not to mention conveniently not noticing all the acceptances of similar high scorers who are Asian. Focusing on a single instance of a (in this case, apparently, not even a rejection but a waitlist) is meaningless within the sea of acceptances, rejections & waitlists to Princeton & similar schools. For every non-accepted high-scoring Asian, there will be example after example of quite the opposite. A fabulous URM female from D's school, who scored slightly lower than the #4 ranked student, but who had e.c.'s & other attributes to burn (esp. compared to the #4 student), was waitlisted at Stanford, while the other student, Asian <em>female</em>, was accepted. Asian <em>males</em> in particular apply disproportionately to Harvard, Princeton, and Stanford, especially. Part of that is because of the science opportunities at these schools. These U's are not going to take all high-scoring Asian males who apply, & they will especially not take an overrepresentation from one region (in this case, NJ).</p>

<p>Plus, there are others who got into Princeton from his school in the same admissions cycle as Li. The adcom may have compared them in some way - like the rigor of their courses or how many out-of-school activities they did. And perhaps he got into Yale (instead of the others) because the same applicants didn't apply there.</p>

<p>Precisely. (Post 32.)</p>

<p>epiphany, this is a yes or no question. Have you seen Jian Li's application?</p>

<p>dtark, are you saying that Li DESERVED to get into every school he applied to based on his scores and gpa alone, which is what he is implying</p>

<p>it appears he is basing his complaint on #s, so that is what we are looking at, and even Li is implying the rest of the application is irrelevent, so why do we need to see it?</p>

<p>(Answering Post 34):
No. Nor have I seen all the other applications within that cycle -- both those accepted and those rejected or waitlisted. Nor have you. That 's a much more critical point -- relative to his "complaint" & to the "study." So,</p>

<p>(1) He's complaining against a phantom cohort of submissions he has not reviewed, rendering null and void the basis of "comparison."</p>

<p>(2) He wouldn't have an objective way of comparing those recent apps, if he did have privileges to review them, as he's in the subject position, not the objective position.</p>

<p>(3) He has not reviewed, nor would he ever be able to review, the accepted & rejected applications of the previous cycle "studied."</p>

<p>(4) He has not the experience nor expertise to understand who should & should not be accepted to any specific college, the various reasons for acceptance & what aspects of an application do & do not support admission, & success at a specific U, including Princeton.</p>

<p>(5) I never once on CC claimed that Jian Li's app was sub-par within itself. Do not confuse with me other posters. Since he was accepted to Yale -- and apparently only WAITLISTED to Princeton, both U's have determined that he is capable of "elite" college work. A waitlist decision usually translates to approval of the candidate's profile but an acknowledgement that other candidates may have more persuasive profiles for the particular year in question, for a variety of reasons.</p>

<p>citygirlsmom, what I am saying is I don't have the information to make an informed opinion, and neither do you, epiphany or anybody else.</p>

<p>If Li is wrong, it will come out. If he isn't, that will come out too.</p>

<p>It looks to me like people are afraid of the coming out.</p>

<p>Epiphany, you make some good points in post 34. However, it's a filing, correct? It's an accusation. </p>

<p>It hasn't been proven that Princeton has done anything wrong. The school will get its turn.</p>

<p>Ok my responses to posts 36 and 37 are in post 35. It looks like CC is having trouble with time.</p>

<p>I realize that this post may also be placed incorrectly. :)</p>

<p>Edit: I mean 37 and 38 or whatever those posts are going to be numbered. :)</p>

<p>
[quote]
Anyway, I also wanted to mention that I have heard this rumor that all the Ivy League schools come together and tell each other which applicants they are accepting so that one school doesn't waste a possible seat that could be someone elses when another ivy league is accepting that student. Is this true? This would make a lot of sense in Li's case

[/quote]
Interesting rumor ... especially since it is illegal to do so ... the schools can not share any information about their applicants or the status of their applications while they are being considered ... it is considered collusion if they do (and yes this was worked out in court 25+ years ago). Mr Li was accepted and rejected no his on merits given the stanrds and needs of the various schools to which he applied.</p>

<p>"it's just as dangerous to assume that all asians are smart and bookish as blacks are poor and ghetto, or hispanics are illegal immigrants" </p>

<p>The OP puts this so well.... Why don't ppl realize this ? I worked really hard to get my 2180 on the SAT and if people compare them to other members of my race and hold my scores low compared to them ..... isn't that harsh on me......Just because i belong to a certain race should not mean that I should live up to higher standards.....</p>

<p>Lets hide names and race from adcoms 1 year and see what happens..... I saw Li's interview with ABC and he seemed pretty mature to me..... I don't think he wants to take revenge..... cmon guys he is already at yale and he can only do himself harm from doing what he is doing..... I think its courageous of him to stand up against what he thinks is wrong....... </p>

<p>This is my solely my opinion..... many here won't agree with me , which is perfectly OK as they have the right to have their own opinions , just as Li has a right to have his own opinion.....</p>