<p>Confused student:
'perceived' is subjective. It won't work if you use it in math logic. Of course, that can be confusing for a student.</p>
<p>However, my view is totally different than yours. Li is very smart, he's at Yale. he has nothing to lose. If he does well, more power to him. If he does bad, he's only 17 (of course with 27 year old wisdom), people will excuse him. After all, this country likes controversy, all of us have nothing better to do to be on this board proves the point.</p>
<p>He's very sharp and he made the right chess move.</p>
<p>Whether you agree or disagree with Li or not doesn't matter to the charge that he brought up. It's about the elimination of race as a factor in college admission. Yes, colleges should look at the whole person instead of a single test score. There are different level of intelligences and talents in people, and all of them should be examined when making a decision. However, why does race has to be a factor? If we are examining the whole person, then we are looking at what that person has accomplished with his/her ability in the context of his/her environment. The racial character of the individual should not have a bearing on their character and accomplishments, because to do anyless would discredit their achievements as a person and box them into a category. </p>
<p>Whether you like Li or not is not important, but what important is whether we should let institutionalized racial discrimination continue. If some are content that there is no such thing as racial discrimination in higher education, then there would be nothing wrong with having colleges put in an anti-discriminatory clause in their admission policy, because no one would be harm by it (since there is no discrimination to begin with). Let keep admissions opens to students whose abilities lie beyond the numbers and race.</p>
<p>"However, why does race has to be a factor?"</p>
<p>To create a well rounded class filled with all sorts of people: People from different races, ethnicities, regions, countries, socioeconomic classes, religions, political perspectives, extracurricular interests, etc.</p>
<p>confused_student:"Princeton is a PRIVATE institution, and the government can have no say over how a PRIVATE institution conducts their admissions...they have the right to admit who they want, and there is absolutely no reason why they would have to admit Mr. Li, even if it was just because he was Asian."</p>
<p>So you are saying that the government is not allowed to regulate any private institutions. HAH! If a private company denied employment based on race, the government has all the right to intervene. Money controls everything, and it is very persuasive. If the government cuts funding that is going to be a huge signal and an excellent way to get their point across.</p>
<p>citygirlsmom:"And to those in love with scores as the way to judge a person, when you are judged on who you are based on one test from one company, solely and ignored for who you are, maybe then you can understnad what I am saying"</p>
<p>While I totally agree with you that it is very wrong to judge someone by a test grade that they get, I also believe that it is very wrong to judge someone by the race/ethnicity they are. To tell you the truth I don't know what Li's exact arguement is but I would oppose a decision to solely base admission on test scores. If it were up to me admissions should be based only on GPA, courseload, ECs, and especially the interview and the essay. A persons personality and drive are what is going to matter after they finish college, no one will care what you got on your tests or what your GPA was. Character is far more important, in my opinion, than any test score or what your ethnicity is.</p>
<p>"To create a well rounded class filled with all sorts of people: People from different races, ethnicities, regions, countries, socioeconomic classes, religions, political perspectives, extracurricular interests, etc."</p>
<p>Northstarmom can you clarify for me? Are you implying that the factors listed above are justifications for having racial discrimination in college admission? I fail to see how me being a certain race could fulfill diversity in religion, EC interests, socioeconomic classes, region, and countries? You can achieve diversity by "what that person has accomplished with his/her ability in the context of his/her ENVIRONMENT." People come from different background, how they handle their background and what they do with it is important. Not what genetic lottery they landed under. Diversity is absolutely crucial in education, but you can achieve it through other mean.</p>
<p>For example:
Student A (wealth background, suburban lifestyle, private school, captain of polo team, catholics)
SAT 2200
GPA3.7/4</p>
<p>Student B (blue-collar family, urban project, public school, work part-time to help family, non-denomination church)
SAT 2000
GPA 3.5 / 4</p>
<p>Student B stands a very good chance of getting into the many colleges that A would get into. B lives under different circumstances than A, but he/she has accomplished an impressive credential for someone who lacks the advantages of A. Colleges can admit B and diversify their student population without having to resort to race.</p>
<p>Your being a certain race relates to the colleges having people of various racial backgrounds.</p>
<p>There are 2 places in U.S. society where people are literally forced into very intimate close relationships with a diverse group of people. One is the military. The other is college. </p>
<p>By literally living in college dorms and participating in classroom discussions and campus ECs with people of different races, one is forced into more intimacy with diverse groups of people than is typical elsewhere in the U.S., where people tend to hang around mostly with people of their race. Their neighborhoods also tend not to be diverse nor are their places of worship. Even though racially diverse groups of people now work together in the real world, they tend not to go home together or hang out together.</p>
<p>The same is true when it comes to other types of diversity. For instance, people who live in large cities aren't likely to spend much time with people who live in rural areas. However, the places like HPY recruit and admit so as to have students from all over the country and the world. That means that students from New England and NYC - from where thousands of extremely well qualified students apply to HPY --have a harder time getting accepted than do students from Idaho, Alabama and the Pacific NW that don't have a lot of students applying to places like HPY.</p>
<p>HPY could probably fill up their classes with excellent white and Asian students from New England, Boston and Northern Virginia, but don't choose to do that. They select from a pool of outstanding applicants students who will most contribute to a well rounded class representing a variety of religions, ethnicities, races, countries of origins, majors, extracurricular interests, etc.</p>
<p>As Harvard's admission dean has said, 90% of Harvard applicants have what it takes to succeed at Harvard. Consequently, the factors that get a student selected are what a student has that will best contribute to a diverse, well rounded class that makes an active contribution to the campus as well as the local community.</p>
<p>"Colleges can admit B and diversify their student population without having to resort to race."</p>
<p>Sure they can, but if colleges want to have the most diverse environments that are possible, they certainly would include racial diversity. They'd want their students to be best equipped for the modern world, which is very diverse.</p>
<p>They want their students to be knowledgeable about and comfortable with living and working with people from a variety of backgrounds, races, socioeconommic classes, religions, gender orientations, etc.</p>
<p>It is only the very top colleges in this country that have the deep, outstanding applicant pools and high yields that can accept students in a way to create well rounded, diverse classes. This is a major factor that causes such colleges to be considered great. Indeed, most alum of places like HPY say that their experiences with such a diverse, interesting, intellectually passionate group of peers was the best and most defining part of their college experience.</p>
<p>The people who aren't interested in such a college experience, however, are welcome to apply to the places that do admit mainly by the stats. Those include some of the world's best universities such as Mcgill , Oxford and the Sorbonne as well as CalTech.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, you and I agree on almost everything except how one goes about achieving that diversity. And it's this little disagreement that produces all the bitter bickering we're reading on this post and other posts like it.</p>
<p>Seriously, just end this debate. It's useless and such a waste of time. You guys can help out the others on this forum asking ?s instead of arguing. I do see subtle bigots on this topic (I won't mention them), but who cares? You rarely can reform anyone online.</p>
<p>I AM CALLING FOR THE OFFICIAL LOCK OF TOPIC. GO FRICKING AWAY.</p>
<p>They want their students to be knowledgeable about and comfortable with living and working with people from a variety of backgrounds, races, socioeconommic classes, religions, gender orientations, etc.</p>
<p>It is only the very top colleges in this country that have the deep, outstanding applicant pools and high yields that can accept students in a way to create well rounded, diverse classes. This is a major factor that causes such colleges to be considered great. Indeed, most alum of places like HPY say that their experiences with such a diverse, interesting, intellectually passionate group of peers was the best and most defining part of their college experience.
So, are you implying that racial diversity is neccessary for college students to meet other kids from a variety of backgrounds, socioeconomic classes, religions, gender orientations, etc.? I have 3 really good Indian friends and they are all very different-one is gay and rich, one is Muslim and middle-class, and the other was brought up in South Africa but is very poor today. They are amongs the most unique individuals I know and I have learned so much from them that obviously only such diverse encounters could produce except keep in mind one point: THEY ARE ALL INDIAN.</p>
<p>You are assuming that there are intrinsic differences between people of different races Northstarmom when they don't exist and they are independent based on situation. Colleges in fact could find all the diversity of thought, expression, background, etc. they could possibly want just from carefully selecting appropriate applicants from those belonging just to the Chinese nationality for instance.</p>
<p>So, lets say you have six applicants applying to Princeton: a gay impoverished Chinese male, a wealthy bisexual Chinese female, a middle class Hindu Chinese male, a gay impoverished Black male, a wealthy bisexual Black female, and a middle class Hindu Black male. Now lets assume that the three Chinese applicants have far superior test scores/grades as compared to their black counterparts and all six applicants have EC's/essays that are relatively at the same level. Now since in the POV of Princeton, its diversity needs will be met no matter which applicants it chooses so the Chinese students obviously have the upper hand in admissions barring no external factors not already mentioned right??? WRONG!!!!</p>
<p>That's why Affirmative Action is flawed and why many of its debunkers rightfully believe that all Ivy league colleges like HYP merely desire the presence of a certain ratio of different shades of skin color present on campus so they can be seen as promoting "diversity" to the visiting taxpayer.</p>
<p>Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.:rolleyes:</p>
<p>"Epiphany, by your logic, anyone who is not privy to alll the details of a selection process has no right to complain of its unfairness. Surely you can't be serious?"</p>
<p>I don't care how you care to word it. What I'm saying is that without full information, no, one does not have a basis for genuine complaint. Unless someone from the college says in effect, "I was on the admissions committee, and I didn't admit you because...." (of course they would not normally reveal that to a rejected or waitlisted student), or there's an admissions policy statement published by the college that states <em>absolute</em> (not relative) admissions criteria -- then no, you have no basis for complaint. You need all the factors that the college is comparing, because that is in fact how they do it: assembling multiple factors to get a rich,broad spectrum of Americana & the globe within the parameters of a highly intellectually qualified & highly prepared student.</p>
<p>Generally even admits never know "why" they got admitted. In the case of many students the author of the acceptance letter may write something nice about an essay, etc., or a warm note about liking some aspect of the application. </p>
<p>And as to those who will undoubtedly react with suspicion to the lack of full disclosure, it is not mainly for secrecy (although there are a multitude of confidentiality concerns); it is mainly because admissions is not formulaic, & there would be no "template" that is available even to those on the committee. As someone else said, if that's the system you want (a template), then you're living in the wrong country or seeking an education in the wrong country.</p>
<p>"So, are you implying that racial diversity is neccessary for college students to meet other kids from a variety of backgrounds, socioeconomic classes, religions, gender orientations, etc.? "</p>
<p>Of course not. I'm saying that for students to get to interact with peers of various races, it's necessary to have a racially diverse student body. </p>
<p>For students to interact with peers from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds, it's necessary to have an economically diverse student body.</p>
<p>For students to interact with peers from a variety of countries and regions of this country, it's necessary to have students who come from different countries and from different parts of the U.S.</p>
<p>When one goes to classes with, lives in dorms with, and are in campus extracurrculars with students from a variety of races, ethnicities, socioeconomic classes, religions,etc., one learns how to get along with and understand various types of people, and one learns also a great deal about the world and even about oneself. That aspect of one's college education will help one through one's life as one works with and encounters the different types of people in the world.</p>
<p>Incidentally, none of this relates to Affirmative Action, which is a policy designed to help groups like women, African Americans and Hispanics -- who for hundreds of years were legally discriminated against -- catch up. Unlike what many people here falsely believe, Affirmative Action also means that if there are two equal candidates , the URM, woman, etc. should get the nod. It's not supposed to have unqualified URMs selected instead of nonURMs who are well qualified. Also, the greatest beneficiaries of Affirmative Action have been women, particularly white women.</p>
<p>Of course there are more constructive ways to respond to perceived unfairness. This can go in one of 2 directions:</p>
<p>(1) If you believe that others have a stereotyped image of you because you share so much in common with the way others from your ethnic group have been raised, & have come to expect certain outcomes from that upbringing, you could make the radical step as a future parent, by breaking that mold & deciding to raise your future children differently -- IF you believe there is that perception, & that perception is affecting your own possible admissions.</p>
<p>(2) You could do the traditional American thing: you could get your revenge by becoming so successful that you are able to start your own private University, supporting your own "strictly" merit-based (quantitative) standards & thereby be in control of the process on at least your own turf.</p>
<p>What are you talking about?
1. There is nothing destructive about responding DIRECTLY to perceived unfairness. In fact, it is a very "traditional American" thing to do.
2. Of course you have basis for a discrimination complaint without an explicit statement from the other party that they are discriminating against you. That is why a third party investigates the claim. Do you think employment discrimination lawsuits succeed only when the company posts a flyer in break room stating "no promotions for minorities this year"?</p>
<p>No, I am saying that you have no basis for a charge of discrimination as it is defined, understood, & applied in this country. And you are mixing up 2 replies: one was to the question concerning intimate & comprehensive knowledge of admissions processes & decisions, leading to particular outcomes. The other was a separate reply relating to a more constructive & proactive way to activate a strong disapproval of inclusive & comprehensive application reviews -- a way more effective than fantasizing that you are going to move major institutions such as the Ivies into "doing it your way." Or that you will cause them to tremble in their boots, or lose any of their federal scholarship, etc. support.</p>
<p>And I am saying, because it is demonstrated here on multiple threads & multiple posts, that the high school American civics education is very poor, and/or its students are selectively understanding it for personal motives.</p>
<p>Epiphan, I am going to respond to more than one of your statements here. I don't believe this constitutes "mixing up" anything:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>Filing the complaint IS a proactive solution. Because he is trying to do something about this problem now. Planning to raise your yet-unborn children differently is not a proactive solution. Nor is planning to open your own university. In fact, that would be pretty delusional, even more than thinking the government or a university will listen to your complaint. </p></li>
<li><p>If this complaint demonstrates such a complete ignorance of how discrimination complaints work in this country, why is the Office for Civil Rights launching an investigation into Princeton's admissions practices? You'd think they'd actually be experts on how discrimination complaints work.</p></li>
<li><p>Where on earth did you get this idea that "intimate & comprehensive knowledge" of a discriminatory decision is needed in order to have a legitimate complaint? This seems plainly false, as it would imply that simply being secretive is enough to get away with a discriminatory practice.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>"It is easy to just sit and study, but does is that person nore than just there grades?"</p>
<p>um i dont know what world you come from citygirlsmom, but working hard, studying, and getting grades is just as "easy" as winning a popularity contest for presidency in a bunch of clubs/class.</p>