<p>Under the advisement of my counselor, I've been researching liberal arts colleges to try and branch myself away from the typical large, private research universities. The LACs I've really liked are Swarthmore, Wellesley, Pomona, and Amherst. (Williams would be a fantastic choice but it's in the middle of nowhere and I'm very city-oriented).</p>
<p>I'm also very interested in medicine (and despite the cliche, I'm 95% sure I want to go into medicine), so do you think that attending a liberal arts college would give me a better, worse, or equal chance than attending a large research university?
My dream school is Columbia, but it's a reach for me. I want to say that matches would be somwhere along the lines of Notre Dame, or lower-tiered Ivies such as UPenn.</p>
<p>Though of the LACs I mentioned, how would you rank them, in terms of overall academics and then academics for medicine (in terms of sciences)?</p>
<p>Pre-med course work is commonly found at liberal arts colleges, as it mostly consists of frosh/soph level chemistry, biology, physics, and math, plus some English composition and social studies courses.</p>
<p>If you are female, Barnard is right next to Columbia, with convenient cross registration access if you are concerned about the breadth and depth of the course catalog.</p>
<p>Medical school is expensive, so you want to keep costs down for undergraduate. Have you checked the net price calculators at each school?</p>
<p>Your application list should start with a safety that you are certain of admission and affordability.</p>
<p>If Columbia’s a reach, then so are Swat, Pomona, and Amherst. Wellesley only slightly less so. These are extremely selective schools, and tiny ones.</p>
<p>In my opinion, if you assume your GPA and MCAT scores come out the same regardless of your college choice, then the choice of a LAC vs. a large research university will not significantly affect how med schools evaluate your application. It is not even clear that choosing the #1 LAC/university vs. the #20 or #30 LAC/university will significantly affect the evaluation. </p>
<p>Why do Swarthmore, Wellesley, Pomona, and Amherst especially appeal to you (other than the fact that they get top US News rankings)? There is no significant difference in the overall academic quality of these colleges. Overall academic quality at LACs seems to be fairly consistent as you trundle fairly far down the rankings (although there may be significant differences in specific programs.)</p>
<p>That’s not to say that Amherst’s science programs aren’t considered quite good, regardless. It does suggest that many other LACs have science programs that are at least as strong, despite Amherst’s US News ranking. Then again, pre-meds can major in nearly anything (including humanities and social sciences).</p>
<p>@marvin100
Though I’d beg to differ. They’re all selective schools, yes, but Columbia is on a different tier than even the top liberal arts colleges, in terms of admissions. (You can take a look at percent accepted.) I also know from personal experience – graduates from my high school, those who now matriculate at top tiered Ivies vs. those at LACs. These people all have quite impressive stats, and they often get into both top ivies and lacs, but I’ve noticed certain nuances that separate the two tiers.
That being said (I’m sorry for being rather defensive), I’m at the level where Swarthmore and Williams could be a match but Columbia would be a reach.</p>
<p>@tk21769
Thanks for the info! :)</p>
<p>I did the most research on Wellesley, and it really drew me in. The setting (dorms and campus) look amazing. What really interested me was the fact that the alumnae are historically important, they’re some of the top women in the nation. I’ve also heard that, although it’s not the most academically prestigious, it has a lot of social connections.</p>
<p>Swarthmore, on the other hand, may be more fitting for me in terms of academics. I’m interested in Pomona because I’m close to a student there who is an alumni from my high school, and he raves about it. From the pictures he has taken, the campus is beautiful.</p>
<p>Though overall, all these schools are relatively close to a large city, which is what I really look at when I’m not able to visit the school. (If it turns out I don’t like the campus or the environment at the school, I can get away in the city). I also think that these schools are matches (not safeties) for me, and they are all partner colleges with QuestBridge. I just wanted to know, other than their overall academic profiles, how well they would fit my interests.</p>
<p>Swarthmore and Williams are nobody’s matches. And I say that as the parent of a kid who got into Swat last year. I think you are still mentally thinking that the top LACs are an easier admit than Ivies – you might need to rethink that. Go ahead and apply, but you want them on your “reach” list and don’t have any expectations that you have any certainty of admission. It is a bit easier if you have a hook, but you have not mentioned one. If you have a hook for Swat or Williams, it should be a hook for Columbia as well.</p>
<p>In addition to considering the financial side as mentioned above, you want to consider your GPA. You need a stellar GPA for med school, and that can be a lot harder to accomplish at a top tier school (LAC or university). Some LAC’s down a notch from what you have listed where you might find it a bit easier to achieve your needed GPA are Macalester, Smith (assuming you are female, as you liked Wellesley), or Haverford. Some of those mentioned above (Colby and Kenyon) are in remote locations, and Kzoo and Bates aren’t exactly in bustling places you would want to explore. Oberlin has strong sciences, so although the location is a little quiet, it would be another LAC to consider. Carleton produces a lot of pre-meds (but GPA will be more challenging – but not as much as Swat and Williams).</p>
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<p>Here is scoop - at ANY of the colleges you have listed, you are going to be working your tail off, especially as a pre-med. You won’t have a ton of time to “get away in the city” at any of them. Academics are very tough at these schools. One of my kids is at a top school, and she rarely goes off campus – she just doesn’t have time. That is not a very good criteria to use to pick a college, as you will be spending limited time off campus. You would be much better served to spend your time focusing on the campus, students, academics, and extra curricular activities on campus than what is around it. Because 95+% of your time will be spent on those, not the area off campus.</p>
<p>Since you’re applying through Questbridge, I’d say your odds of getting matched are higher for a LAC (if that’s what you mean with “easier”). It’s really, really relative though but all your QB schools are going to be like that. If you want premed, see if you can include Brown, because they have the highest mean GPA known to colleges anywhere and med schools look at GPA+MCAT first, regardless of where you attended.
Just make sure to include one or two that are slightly less selective than the others. I would include Barnard rather than Columbia, though. It’d greatly improve your odds of being matched.
Which other QB schools are you considering (beside the ones you cited)?</p>
<p>@ucbalumnus
In the state I live in, if you’re in the top however many % of your class, you get automatic admission to the public universities in the state. I’ll likely make that % but if not, I’ll apply to those schools as safeties. They’re local/in-state public universities. </p>
<p>@intparent
I will admit that you’re right on many of your points. I’m not confident the top LACs are matches for me, but it’s hard to define what “match” is and differentiate between that between safety and reach. Perhaps I’m omitting ‘match’ schools entirely, and just ranking schools that are actually realistically just safeties or reaches. Thank you for your other suggestions, I will definitely look into them.</p>
<p>@MYOS
I’m considering Rice (prob 2nd choice after Columbia), Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, and Vassar.</p>
<p>My definition of a safety is where your stats are in the top 25% (or you have guaranteed admission based on your stats) and you KNOW you can afford the school for sure. If the school takes student interest into account (which you can tell by reviewing the common data set), be sure you show interest (get on their email lists, attend events in your city put on by the college, visit if you can). Be sure you get your parents to help you run the net price calculators to make sure you can afford them.</p>
<p>Match schools are schools where your stats fall close to or above the 50% point and the acceptance rate is above around 25%. </p>
<p>By stats I mean standardized test scores, by the way. GPA is important, too, but test scores are what they can see across all students.</p>
<p>Others may define these categories slightly differently. If you have a hook (URM, for instance), you can assume a bit of a shift in the percentages in your favor.</p>
<p>“They’re all selective schools, yes, but Columbia is on a different tier than even the top liberal arts colleges, in terms of admissions. (You can take a look at percent accepted.)”</p>
<p>Why not ALSO look at SAT ranges? You’ll find that the LACs are somewhat self-selecting (not as many apply as apply to Columbia–and certainly not as many completely underqualified candidates with an “Ivy dream”). Having worked in college admissions for 12 years, I assure that Williams, Amherst, and Swat are as reachy as Columbia, and it’s not very debatable.</p>
<p>@ucbalumnus
I believe I can get a decent amount of financial aid for my safeties. It helps that they’re public and in-state, so they’re affordable enough if I don’t get full financial aid.</p>
<p>@marvin100
Perhaps admittedly, my perception is skewed, since I base a lot of it on what I’ve observed from past students. I’ve seen students from my high school get accepted in top LACs (Amherst, Pomona, Swarthmore), and my stats are on par, if not better than theirs. On the other hand, there has been next to no student who has gotten into Columbia. Though it’s a skewed perception, since I don’t know the extent of their ECs, hooks, or situations.</p>
<p>@intparent
I have a hook as first gen college, though don’t know how big of a hook that would be.
I also wanted to ask/clarify about what you mentioned about med schools looking at gpa earlier. So medical schools would differentiate a gpa attained at one school vs. one at another? Say a person gets a high gpa at Princeton and another person gets a high gpa at Wellesley. How much would a medical school differentiate? I know that in terms of high school, being valedictorian at two different high schools can mean two very different things. Though I do understand your point that it’s better to get a high gpa at an easier school, rather than bombing at a very competitive one.</p>
<p>An MD I know went to Colby college so she would have a better chance at med school over the colleges that you are mentioning.</p>
<p>Edit to add: please do some reading in the med school section for extensive and frequent discussion of gpa and does it matter which school etc. I don’t think med schools differentiate. I know some grad schools do weight but they wouldn’t differentiate Wellesley from Princeton.</p>
and med schools look at GPA+MCAT first, regardless of where you attended.