Don’t ignore public LACs, which may offer teacher-preparation programs. For example:
^ Yes! Don’t know where you live or where you want to go to school, but the University of Mary Washington in Fredericksburg VA describes itself as a public liberal arts university. At 4000 students it hits the sweet spot between small and large, and has a pretty (though smallish) campus surrounded by a residential neighborhood on one side and busy streets (with shopping centers, chain restaurants etc.) on the other (though I admit, not the kind of stores that make up a cute college-town atmosphere. ) It has a 5-year MA/MS. education program where you get a liberal arts degree (i.e. psychology) and do an extra year for teacher certification. I don’t know that much about this school (I’ve just seen it passing through.) That’s just one example, though.
Also, lots of state directional schools, though maybe not elite institutions, have solid education departments. Some, in fact, got their start as teachers colleges years ago and expanded to include other degrees. Usually these schools are medium-sized, with some of the advantages of both LACs and larger schools. My husband teaches at one of these, and has never had a TA teaching a class. His biggest intro classes rarely have more than 40 students, and his labs far fewer.
My daughter is taking summer courses at a big metro university. She’s made 3-4 friends in the math class and they meet after class and do the problems together. This is definitely a commuter school, and even more so in the summer. What has really surprised me is that the other two classes are online. One has a great deal of interaction with the other students and professor. They are divided into different countries (it’s a WW I class) and those assigned to the same country have to communicate, present their views, debate with other countries. I think they have more interaction than some classroom courses might.
All kinds of colleges work.
although many liberal arts colleges tend to be in isolated areas, quite a few are not. rhodes is in memphis, occidental is in los angeles, barnard is in new york city, macalester is in st. paul, colorado college is in colorado springs, reed is in portland, swarthmore, bryn mawr, and haverford are near philadelphia, etc. you don’t have to choose a liberal arts college in an isolated area.
The OP hasn’t mentioned what sorts of LACs or Unis she has her eye on. For instance, yes, pure education degrees will be less common at places like Vassar or Middlebury (I’m assuming). But many, many LACs offer education majors. Most of the CTCL schools do, for instance. I attended a CTCL school and just recently proofread essays from one of my undergrad buddies who has been honored with Teacher of the Year in TX (the CTCL school he and I attended was in the midwest).
I am a bit concerned when so many say that not only should LACs be off the table but that flagships should be too for a potential education major (this came up in another long thread where a student from IL has been told countless times to forget about Vanderbilt or Alabama and just go to a cheap in-state public). There are options beyond attending the nearest directional (I have no issues with directionals, BTW) or commuter options because the school doesn’t matter if one is pursuing a degree in education! Certainly, for some it is a matter of just getting the degree, but I wouldn’t discourage students like the OP from attending the school that really speaks for her, whether it’s a cozy LAC or a well-known public flagship.
Thanks @Hapworth! I’m starting to consider LACs like Middlebury, Claremont McKenna, and Washington and Lee, and universities like UCLA, UW Madison, and NYU.
Are you in-state for UCLA or Wisconsin?
NYU is known for not having good financial aid, and out-of-state public universities typically give none.
@ucbalumnus No, I’m not in state for either.
You will not like Middlebury if you do not want to be in the middle of nowhere. I did not print out directions to the school, from Boston, and got lost when I lost cell phone service. haha. Great school, beautiful campus, but isolated. Claremont is part of an incredible consortium My D will be attending Scripps there this fall. Definitely check out Oxy. We found the students there very friendly.
In terms of social science on the topic, this study arrives at a remarkable conclusion. Though the authors choose conservative wording, they do appear to strongly suggest that for maximal cognitive progression it would be imperative – given a realistic choice – to select a liberal arts college:
[quote]
How the Instructional and Learning Environments of Liberal Arts Colleges Enhance Cognitive Development
This study analyzes longitudinal data from 17 four-year institutions in the United States to determine how the distinctive instructional and learning environment of American liberal arts colleges accounts for the positive impact of liberal arts college attendance on four-year growth in critical thinking skills and need for cognition. We find that, net of important confounding influences, attending an American liberal arts college (vs. a research university or a regional institution in the United States) increases one’s overall exposure to clear and organized classroom instruction and enhances one’s use of deep approaches to learning. In turn, clear and organized classroom instruction and deep approaches to learning tend to facilitate growth in both critical thinking and need for cognition—thus indirectly transmitting the impact of attending a liberal arts college./quote
I have a question to add to this discussion.
In everyone’s experience, during the registration process, do students get dropped from/ locked out of classes more often in small liberal arts colleges or in larger universities, or is this true in both?
Probably has little to do with whether the school is a LAC or research university and more to do with specific school or department characteristics, specifically whether the school or department is well funded enough to have plenty of reserve capacity in terms of faculty (and TA if applicable) resources (lab and other facility space may be a limiting factor for some) to have enough seats for all interested students without having to “ration” them.
That may be hard to measure directly without watching the registration activity (if that is even visible from the outside); what most outsiders can easily observe at some schools is to look in the online schedule to see if classes are completely full or overenrolled, or if they tend to have some space available at the add deadline. An indirect measure may be to check whether the majors in question are more selective than the school for admission or require selective admission to change into after enrolling; this probably means that the department’s courses are filled to capacity with students in the major, and non-majors may have difficulty getting them because those in the major have priority.
@elsaanna - You’ve gotten a lot of information and misinformation here already, but here is my $.02, both as the mother of a college sophomore whose impressions evolved over time and through many visits, and as the wife of a college professor at a large public research university. Take it for what it’s worth – exactly $.02. And, as is the case with most things, YMMV.
There are advantages and disadvantages to LACs, just as there are advantages and disadvantages to medium to large private and public universities. Some of the disadvantages may be deal breakers, some can be mitigated. I will not address the question of urban vs. rural campuses (or lack of defined campuses!) or geographic regions, Greek life or lack thereof, sports teams and culture, etc. but suffice it to say, these factors matter – a lot – in terms of the overall student experience, esp. in light of some of the things I discuss below. Another thing that factors greatly into the discussion is what a student plans on wants studying.
The main advantages to LACs, pedagogically speaking, is that the class sizes are small and that the professors, in general, are hired and promoted for their teaching abilities in addition to their scholarship. The main disadvantage to LACs, pedagogically speaking, is that the departments are small too. If you don’t like or don’t get along with one or more of the professors, it’s difficult to avoid them at LACs and there are slim pickings otherwise. The smallness of an LAC can be mitigated by the school being part of a consortium. Some consortiums are easier to negotiate than others logistically and scheduling-wise. (The Claremonts are particularly good in that respect; others can be more challenging with respect to cross-registration). It’s harder to fall between the cracks (or hide) at a LAC. All of the classes are taught by professors, not grad students.
Generally speaking, LACs often focus more on the liberal arts (e.g., humanities, social sciences, sciences, math) and often don’t have access to professional training programs (e.g., business, engineering, nursing). Larger research universities often offer these
The main advantages to research universities is just that – opportunities for research for both graduate and undergraduate students (although, at some schools, the latter category might get short shrift in that regard). Professors are often hired – and almost always promoted – based on their research acumen and publishing prowess rather than for their teaching skills. At top universities you will have access to professors that quite literally “wrote the book” in some subjects, not to mention Nobel Laureates, MacArthur “geniuses,” etc. etc. Classes – especially introductory classes – are often quite large. Upper division classes tend to be smaller, and less popular majors (think comparative literature) get fewer students. Big schools can be mitigated by honors classes/programs, seminars, etc. Or simply by going to office hours and reaching out to professors.
To clarify, large lectures are usually run by professors (either on faculty, visiting professors, or adjuncts), not by TAs, Discussion sections and grading of papers, etc. usually happens at the level of sections run by grad students TAs. That said, if you want to talk to a professor about what your research interests are or get feedback on your writing, most professors are happy to meet with you during their office hours. My D, a first year, sought out the professor of her large survey class and he offered to work with her on an independent study/directed readings class that lasted two quarters. Again, YMMV.
(In terms of where children of faculty study, in my experience, it varies. Some schools offer free or reduced tuition at their institution or at comparable institutions. This may or may not factor into where the progeny of faculty choose to study). All things being equal, many professors – like most parents – want their kids to get the best possible education at the schools that is is best possible fit. They often value LACs for the interactions kids can have with faculty, but also value the opportunities available at research universities. Some (but not all) students coming out of LACs tend to be very well prepared for graduate school (but then again, so do some (but not all) kids coming out of research universities. YMMV).
At the end of the day, your education is what you make of it.
^ Great post. It makes two important points:
- You can do quite well at either an LAC or large university
- Fit will dramatically effect your overall experience
The two are not mutually exclusive as fit will influence the “can” , hopefully turning it into reality. Like anything else, there are degrees of fit. Hard to find everything you want. Put a good list of schools together that match as much as possible and you’ll be just fine and likely thrive. That’s why it’s so important to find safeties ( equals academic and financial) that you actually like and would be happy to attend.
We lucked out in that S was admitted into several schools high on his list. We didn’t put too much effort in the safety search, essentially just applied to state flagship. Had things turned out differently, he’d be attending a good school that he wasn’t that excited about.
It seems logical that they’d be similar, because even though large Us have more classes (supply), they also have more students (demand).
However popular professors can only teach so many course sections, so # of students in each lecture might matter there.
I personally went to a LAC (later transferred to a U) and one big frustration for me was my difficulty getting courses and sections I wanted the first semester.
D’s at a LAC and has always gotten exactly the course and sections she’s wanted, though she was once locked out but her advisor saw someone drop online and emailed her so she could scoot in quick before someone else saw 
I used to ask this question on tours sometimes when the guide would ask if anyone had a Q and no one did (you know that awkward silence…). “What happens if you get locked out of a class you want?” Got a lot of interesting responses.
I think it depends on the school. My daughter has always gotten her classes at her large university. The one time she was closed out, a simple email to the professor got her in. I can’t speak for others at her school, but my daughter has not had any issues.
My daughter has been talking to friends who will be attending well known large, public universities.
They are NOT happy with their registration process and did not get the courses and/or schedule they desired.
My daughter will be attending a 3000ish liberal arts university and with some early rising and preparation…got her ideal schedule and classes.
She is very happy.
^I went to a small liberal arts college where many students were unhappy with the course registration process. Many students camped out on the registration system overnight so they could be there to hit register at 12 am for the most popular classes; popular classes filled up quickly and unpopular times or professors were often all that was left. This was especially an issue in big majors, like psychology and biology. I know some students who had to take some required classes at nearby colleges in the consortium just to fulfill requirements and graduate on time.
Some classes that were listed in the catalog were never offered (for example, I wanted to take gymnastics for my PE and that class was never offered for the four years I was there, despite being listed in the catalog). And because the college was small, some classes were only offered once a year or once every other year (for example, I found out in my second semester that I needed four semesters of Japanese to do the Japanese exchange program, but Japanese 101 was only offered in the fall, so by junior year I wasn’t eligible for the program that was a big part of the reason I chose my college in the first place). Some courses had limited enrollment or you had to get written (like actual written, on a paper form) permission to take, which required running all over campus to get signatures while you were trying to register for other classes.
It’s not better or worse than a large university. I’ve heard similar stories at small LACs and at large universities. They all have their disadvantages and advantages when it comes to scheduling classes and registering. Like someone else said, that has more to do with the individual college and its departments than it has to do with the size of the college itself,