Liberal arts colleges vs large universities?

College Search & Selection
61

I would just like to comment on the question about preparation for the field of education.

I have spent the past 14 years as an administrator in suburban public school districts within New York State, where my responsibilities include hiring teachers at the elementary school level.

Where do you want to live someday? Check that state’s certification requirements. In most states, you will need only to take certain courses and do a student teaching experience in order to be certified. You can pick these up as an undergrad, or, as I did, in a master’s program afterwards. It IS easiest to do so at a college that has program level certification, where they will vouch that you met the standards— that means less paperwork for you in order to get certified.

In NYS, teachers need to get a master’s degree eventually anyway in order to maintain their certification. So if you want to go pure liberal arts as an undergrad and then get your master’s in teaching, it works. But people who will need to pay their way through their master’s should attend an undergrad college where they can receive their initial certification, so they can start teaching and then use part of their salary to pay for grad school at night and during the summers. However, you do not need to major in education to get certified in NY; you just need to take certain courses plus student teaching.

I celebrate and endorse this comment by @gointhruaphase :

Almost every education theory course I ever took (all graduate courses) were mostly useless and not that interesting. I can count on one hand the things I learned in courses that I actually used as a teacher or administrator! (The student teaching experience, however, is very valuable.). I have nothing but praise for my four years at a pure liberal arts college (which did not offer a single semester-length education course at the time), where I learned the thinking and writing skills that serve me well to this day, as well as developing a deep understanding of content.

When I look at teachers’ resumes, with 1000+ resumes for every teaching position, one’s attendance at a highly selective college in an interesting (non-education) major, like philosophy or psychology or biology or Russian literature, will be sure to catch my attention: being smart and well-educated will get you the interview if you also are certified. But that certainly does not mean that having an education major is in any way a DISadvantage, because that is what most of our candidates and teachers have! Our excellent teachers come from a wide variety of colleges and majors, in teaching and in other subjects.

In the final analysis, your interview and demonstration lesson will be the most important aspects, regardless of your major or academic prowess. Walk into a class of children, and show how you can engage them and inspire them to learn!

None of this addresses the large school-small school issue, because that is not relevant to your success, except insofar as that you choose an environment in which you will be happy and able to excel because it matches your learning needs and preferences.

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@TheGreyKing You didn’t mention gpa achievement in your post. How important is that especially for teachers a few years out of school.?

Also you didn’t mention whether a highly prestigious grad school had any impact. I have two friends with masters in education from Brown or the equivalent major to get certified. With highly selective undergrads (Colorado college/swathmore) and they can’t get a spot at any of the public school systems locally in New England. They have said to me that for some reason they think it has actually been a hindrance. They both work at private schools but in our area that means a big time pay and benefits discrepancy.

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@tk21769,

My comment was simply that – a comment. I did not mean to, nor did I think anyone would, extrapolate to suggest that everyone attending an Ivy only writes one paper in four years. In fact, I doubt that most Ivy students only write one paper in four years – particularly given the writing seminars that are typical these days. I think I was more surprised that anyone could get through an Ivy writing only one paper.

@ucbalumnus

I don’t think this is inaccurate as it came from a student from our state flagship in that class. Does every intro econ class at a large university have 500 students? Probably not. On the other hand, they probably don’t have 30 students either.

But all of this is anecdotal. The OP should – when he or she visits colleges and universities – ask whether intro classes are taught by TAs and how large those classes are. Then the OP can evaluate the information and its importance to his or her college decision.

64

@privatebanker- I will try to answer your questions, but can base them only on my own experience, so they may not be representative.

This is just my opinion as one person who does hiring, but in my view, GPA is somewhat school-specific. I recently had an applicant from a top university with a range of A’s and B’s and even one C. That transcript did not lead to any concerns that the candidate might not be smart enough to teach our students, to assess student data, to design lessons, to use correct grammar and spelling when writing with the class, to learn and grow on the job, and to communicate effectively with our most demanding parents. I had another applicant from a local nonselective college, who had majored in childhood education, with a similar transcript. The B’s and C’s were more of a red flag for that candidate.

And yes, strong grad schools also are impressive. I know I definitely had people comment positively on my Teachers College Master of Arts degree when I myself was an applicant for teaching and administrative jobs.

But again, sometimes the candidate with a degree from CW Post or Molloy gets the job over the candidate from Colgate and Bank Street, because their demonstration lesson is better. No one factor is a single determinant. Educational background may help attract attention to a resume, making an interview more likely. But it is a screening method. Once the first interview has taken place, no one cares about the candidate’s educational background anymore. Then it is all about interviews and demo lessons and references.

But I may add one other reason education matters:
Many schools, include ours, require a writing sample and a math sample when the candidate comes in for an interview.
Last summer, we eliminated a bunch of candidates who could not solve a problem from a recent state math test for fifth graders. It was a sad comment on the state of math education. I hope we are doing a better job with our students!

——-

@privatebanker - The part about grad school being a hindrance may be true in some cases where a district is saving money. A candidate with a master’s is usually paid more on the teachers’ contract. Our district will hire anyone but will only place someone on the salary scale above Master’s plus four years’ experience if they are the only qualified candidate (i.e., never for an area with an excess of applicants like elementary education). We will take someone with 20 years of experience, but we will tell them upfront that, if they continue in the application process, they need to know that they will be paid only MA + 4 if they get the job. Just a financial reality with a tax cap in effect.

65

Back to the original topic.
I generally am an advocate for small colleges, but here is a plus for larger universities:
If you get dropped from a course due to overenrollment at a small college, you may be limited in the remaining availability of courses in the department at that point. A larger university, I presume, would have more options still available to you in the desired department.

66

The inaccuracy is the wording that (mis)leads the reader to believe that faculty are not involved in teaching the large lecture course, as you wrote in reply #34.

The reality is that large lectures are generally led by faculty members. Yes, TAs do run the discussion sections and do grading of assignments, etc., but it is not like faculty members are absent in the large introductory courses. Yes, the environment and format is different from that of a small LAC, but it is not necessary to mislead the reader when describing such differences.

67

I’ve posted this several times, but my very favorite class at UT was American History, taught by George Forgie. There were over 300 kids in the class. Dr. Forgie was such a gifted teacher and storyteller that I couldn’t wait to go to class each time. He assigned a ton of challenging books and gave hard exams. I would go to his office hours and we would talk about history - he tried to convince me to switch my major from engineering to history! If I had been scared off because of the large size of the class, I would have missed out on so much! And I was very proud of the A I earned in there - he didn’t give many.

68

The school districts where I live (SF Bay Area) are desperate for applicants. I suppose the extremely high cost of living has something to do with it, though.

When I was going to a big school, we were highly encouraged to see the teaching assistants before going to the professor’s office hours.

69

I work in a public school in the suburbs of NYC, and my school does most of their hiring from the substitute teachers who have been there. Their school does not matter… they have already proven themselves while subbing. I know that all districts do things differently.

Back to the topic:

Not all large schools are impersonal.
My daughter… at her large university… is encouraged to go to the profs office hours. I will take it a step further- her professor kept tabs on her when she started school and was having adjustment issues. This professor spent hours talking to her and also checked in with her daily. Fast forward once again and this professor invites students over for dinner at least twice a year.

My older D attended a school with 4000 students, and that was the right decision for her. It was a small state school that most have never heard of, but it prepared her very well for grad school.

I am not a fan of one type of school over another. I am a fan of finding the school that best serves the individual student… whether it’s a LAC or a large university.

70

Both my husband and I attended a large state university. Many classes were very large, and even upper-level classes, depending on your major, were large as well. However, they were mostly taught by faculty and not TAs. Some profs were skilled at making a large class feel smaller by encouraging lots of discussion. However, there was still a very impersonal feel. You could spend an entire day out and about on campus and not have anyone speak to you or use your name. Learning was “optional” in a way - lots of people skipped classes much of the time, and just pulled all-nighters before tests. Except in the smaller classes, nobody would notice if you were absent, or asleep, or whatever.

Our daughter is at a small LAC where the average class size is under 20 students. All her profs know who she is, she can talk to them whenever she wants, even for reasons other than academics - she and one music prof had lengthy discussions about film and literature in person and through email. These are real relationships. She writes a tremendous amount and her writing skills have improved significantly in just one year. My daughter loves that you can’t really be an apathetic student. She remarks frequently that pretty much everyone in her classes seems to enjoy learning. The downsides? Well, it’s easier to get closed out of classes you want when most classes only have one section. There are fewer majors and classes - my daughter was disappointed that there aren’t really good film studies classes. The one dining hall can become repetitive. But none of these negatives counter the fact that she’s getting a phenomenal education in a supportive, engaged environment.

I do agree that more introverted kids might not enjoy this. Her best friend, a smart, hardworking, motivated student, goes to a school with about 40,000 students and really does prefer large classes where she’s not expected to speak. She’s not a slacker and never would be, and she’s not antisocial - she’s got plenty of friends in the dorms - but when it comes to learning she’s not a class participation type. And she’s thriving there. So it really depends, not just on your academic interests, but on your personal learning preferences.

71

I attended a large Uni as a commuter. Commuters are a different type of student, but I can honestly say that in my experience, I only really enjoyed two or three classes in my whole college career. The classes I enjoyed, coincidentally or not, were with the profs I liked and still remember, who made an effort to interact with students and who encouraged class discussion. Each of those classes was a higher level course. Every Intro level class I took was large, impersonal and forgetable.

I contrast this with my husband, who attended Uni in the UK and really enjoyed college, where tutorial classes are common, and my daughter, who is at a LAC. My D is (was) shy and introverted, but after two years at her LAC, I can honestly say that she has exploded in confidence, conversation skills, and ability to engage with others. She has participated in class-based discussion from the start, because she has no choice in the matter. She has enjoyed nearly all of her classes. She remembers all of her profs and they say hello can call her by name when she sees them. Her grades are fantastic. She loves having a single dining hall, because she sees the same people all the time.

I fully understand that many, many kids who attend large Unis will have similar experiences to my daughter, and that much of it comes down to how proactive a student is in his/her education. There will be plenty of shy kids who thrive at large unis, and plenty of extroverts who thrive at LACs. i do think it will come down to where the OP feels comfortable.

72

Haven’t read entire thread, so I apologize if I am repeating something mentioned earlier.

Some large state universities’ campuses are huge & you often have to take a bus to get to class (e.g. Michigan State, U of Illinois). Other big publics (e.g. Florida State, Nebraska) have a campus that is well-organized & compact…not more spread out than some schools with a much smaller enrollment.

The huge classes in lecture halls are often intoductory classes…you won’t be seeing a lot of them after your first year or two. And the grad students who teach classes or lead discussion groups can be wonderful.

Go to the big school and chances are you won’t have to explain where you went to college the rest of your life. I actually like small colleges, and suggested several to my kids. I was unable to give a convincing response when one kid asked, “Why would I want to go to a college nobody has heard of?” (The traditional response of “People who count will have heard of it” always struck me as much too optimistic.)

Big-time sports you can follow on TV vs. small-time sports you might never see on TV.

At most big public universities, they only have enough space in dorms for freshmen and a few others. So sophomores & up tend to move off-campus (or into Greek houses). Very often demand for off-campus housing exceeds supply, creating a seller’s market in which rents are high & landlords do minimal maintenance on their dilapidated properties. It’s much more common to live on campus past the first year ar smaller schools.

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@TheGreyKing Thank you. Makes great sense.

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It’s a personal choice and many of the generalizations are off base. If a student wants a large university but still wants small classes beginning freshman year, they can get that in many honors programs or through smaller majors. And large classes aren’t in and of themselves bad. My D has had many great discussions in classes some would consider large. As a freshman, she also had many honors and non-honors classes that are smaller than even a typical elite LAC seminar. Furthermore, let’s not pretend that introductory STEM and some social science classes at LACs aren’t large. I went to one, and Calc, Physics, psych etc. were usually between 50-100 students. Finally, let’s also not pretend that students are coddled in LACs, with every professor checking up on students, every student having dinner with profs, and generally students who aren’t seeking out opportunities having the same experience that people are fawning about. Again, I went to a top 10 LAC, and the romantic picture that many paint, just isn’t true in my experience. As with many things, the student is going to determine the experience.

75

^Well, the data seems to show greater satisfaction among LAC alumni, assuming willingness to send a donation is any kind of indication: Of the private colleges and universities in this survey, only Princeton breaks the 50% alumni giving rate:

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/universities-where-the-most-alumni-donate

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Thanks for all of the advice and experiences everyone! It’s given me a lot to think about.

As far as what I’m looking for in a classroom setting, I’ve barely said anything to any of my teachers in my entire high school career, and that’s in classes of less than 40. I doubt I’d be able to make any kind of personal connection with professors in a large college, and I don’t know about a small one. It would be great if my college experience was similar to @Lindagaf’s daughter’s though, I’d love to become less shy in college.
I can picture myself being more comfortable in a larger classroom, but benefiting more from a smaller one.
I didn’t think much about the variety of majors that each type of college would offer. In general, I know that I want to do something either related to education or psychology, more likely education. I would be interested in getting a liberal arts or similar major and then a masters in teaching, but weirdly it seems like most LACs that I’ve looked at don’t even have liberal arts majors?
Socially, I like the idea of going to a school that has clubs, sports, greek life, etc, but as long as I can find some close friends I’ll be fine, and that might be easier at an LAC.
The biggest problem that I’d have with going to an LAC is that I don’t want to feel isolated on a super small campus. I don’t like being stuck in the same place for too long, and a tiny campus in the middle of nowhere (with no big town/city surrounding it) sounds miserable. Since I haven’t been on any visits though, I have no way of knowing if that’s actually how I’d feel.

Based on all of this, I still can’t decide for sure which would be better for me personally. I’m thinking maybe an LAC, but I’m going to try to apply to both.

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Hold on. Full stop, @elsaanna. Liberal arts is the term used to cover basically everything from English to Political Science to Bio and all the research sciences (with Psychology nestled somewhere on the spectrum between a social science and Neuroscience, another example of a research science.) The thing they all have in common is that they are studied for the experience of learning, not necessarily because they are part of an employer’s checklist. Some technical colleges and undergraduate professional schools sometimes offer an extremely condensed major called “liberal arts” which is often not much more than a Great Books course. But, that isn’t what is offered at any college - or university - awarding a Bachelor of Arts.

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@circuitrider Thanks, that makes a lot more sense!

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Think of liberal arts as meaning the study of disciplines/ways of thinking, not directly connected to career training.

Some examples of liberal arts majors:
English, Biology, philosophy, physics, history, political science, Russian

Some examples of non-liberal arts/ pre-professional majors: education, accounting, hotel management

80

@elsanna – As you investigate LACs, check to see which offer teaching certification in conjunction with a liberal arts degree. My good friend was able to do that ‘back in the day’ when she attended Swarthmore. Not sure how many LACs still do that.

I know the LAC where my D will attend does not – but they have ‘education studies’ as a major and suggest MAT programs as well as things like Teach for America as alternate routes to the classroom.

I think applying to both small and large colleges is the right call, and then you’ll know when it comes time to decide what your options are and what will suit you best. You’re more self aware than many of your peers already, so I’m not worried about your choice. Exciting times for you!