<p>Hello,</p>
<p>My son wants to study computer science, but has broader interests that he'd also like to explore (history, physics, economics), so he'd like to attend a LAC. He also has some health problems (migraines) so a smaller community might be a better match for him in terms of support and flexibility. He's a gamer and a techie, so we're looking for a place he'll fit in. He's got a 3.41 GPA and 2250 combined SAT, with some AP's. Any suggestions for colleges for him?</p>
<p>Actually, the bigger schools are likely to have a bigger course selection, and/or more convenient scheduling (i.e. advanced courses offered more than once every two years). However, some bigger schools have CS major degree programs within engineering divisions, so they may have additional math, science, and engineering requirements that may reduce the free elective space for history and economics.</p>
<p>LACs are generally best for those who want a smaller college environment, and smaller classes with greater faculty interaction at the freshman and sophomore level.</p>
<p>What you and he probably want to do is look at course catalogs for the following:</p>
<p>Check the CS course offerings at the junior and senior levels:
<ul>
<li>= good for industry software jobs</li>
<li>= good for graduate school in CS</li>
</ul>
<p>Check the CS major degree program. It will generally have math through linear algebra and discrete math, plus introductory and advanced CS courses. If it has heavy requirements that do not overlap with other courses that he will want to take anyway, that may reduce the elective space for those other courses. Check also how flexible the breadth requirements are, or if they overlap with courses he will take anyway.</p>
<p>Check the offerings in the other subjects to see if the school has the desired courses in those subjects.</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>We’re looking at bigger schools too: Tufts, Carnegie Mellon, even UCSD and USC. We just want to make sure he doesn’t get slotted straight into an engineering program so loaded that there’s no room for non-technical courses.</p>
<p>ucbalumnus, I’ll definitely look at the CS major requirements to see about the overlap issue, good thinking. But where should I look? Any suggestions on specific schools that have that good balance?</p>
<p>What do you think about the 3-2 engineering programs that many LAC’s have? Could be the best of both worlds, and a second shot at a better-name school for my low-GPA son.</p>
<p>Resident of California? If not, UCs will be expensive with not much financial aid.</p>
<p>Many of the better known schools for CS are likely to be a stretch with a 3.41 GPA (e.g. Berkeley, which offers a CS major in the College of Letters and Science, and Stanford). So would some of the best known LACs and small schools for CS (e.g. Harvey Mudd, Swarthmore, Bucknell, Caltech).</p>
<p>University of Minnesota - Morris is a small, inexpensive public LAC that has a reasonably full set of CS course offerings (although not every course is offered every year). Among larger schools, University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill offers CS majors without engineering requirements (since it does not have engineering), and does offer financial aid to out of state students (but probably tough with a 3.41 GPA).</p>
<p>Regarding 3+2 programs, they leave uncertainty with respect to admissions and financial aid at the “2” school. Also, some students do not want to transfer away from their “3” school after being there for three years. In many cases, the “3” school requires that the student major in something like math or physics, so the theoretical possibility of majoring in a humanities or social studies subject (while taking the math and physics courses to prepare for engineering) and then transferring to complete the engineering degree (effectively using the extra year for the humanities or social studies subject) is less of an option than it theoretically can be.</p>
<p>Also, many LACs offer CS “natively” (although not all have very good course offerings), so they may discourage or not offer the 3+2 program for those wanting to do CS at the “2” school.</p>
<p>Harvey Mudd has to be the LAC with the best Comp Sci. Mudd CS is awesome.</p>
<p>We’re moving to CA next summer so we’d get three years of in-state tuition. In any case, cost isn’t a big issue for us (thanks grandparents!). </p>
<p>I should mention that my son’s migraines were a chronic health issue all through high school. He missed about 20 days of school a year due to severe classic and abdominal migraine. Under much better control now, since we got his meds figured out. But maybe some of the more competetive schools wil take this into consideration when looking at his high score/ low GPA split?</p>
<p>I’ll definitely look into the schools you mention, thanks. Any others that spring to mind? What do you think of Tufts? How about Lafayette, Union College, Carnegie Mellon? Lehigh, Colby? Though we do want to avoid too a too-dominant Greek scene.</p>
<p>Point well-taken about the 3-2 programs. There is some uncertainty: What if he doesn’t make the min. 3.3 GPA? What if he doesn’t want to leave after 3 years? Then he’s stuck with a limited CS curriculum. Perhaps it’s better to go for a small/ medium school with a real engineering program - like Tufts and Carnegie Mellon.</p>
<p>Among the UCs, Berkeley and Santa Cruz have non-engineering CS majors which may allow for more free electives. However, it is worth noting that some of the extra requirements in engineering-based CS majors are physics, which he is interested in anyway. Engineering-based CS majors and other engineering majors typically require about 20-25% of the course work to be in humanities and social studies, so he may want to consider how much of his course work he wants to use for history and economics.</p>
<p>Getting into Berkeley will be tough with a 3.41 GPA, but getting into Santa Cruz is not as difficult (but 3.4 is the minimum GPA for OOS applicants at UC).</p>
<p>CMU has a top reputation in CS, and is likely an extreme reach with a 3.41 GPA.</p>
<p>For some of the other schools, you and he may want to carefully inspect the course catalogs and degree requirements for the CS major, in order to see if they are suitable.</p>
<p>He is not in the running for Tufts or CMU with a 3.4, but schools with those types of offerings would be a good fit. Perhaps Union? though it has a big Greek scene…
There are benefits to studying CS at a school with engineering. CS majors at my son’s school benefit from taking courses in related engineering disciplines such as electrical/computer engineering, robotics, Interactive Media and Game design etc. Some will pick up a minor in a related engineering or science discipline or in humanities or business.
Have you completely eliminated small engineering colleges such as WPI? My son is there and it is a gamer’s paradise 
He would certainly feel at home at a school like that. It does not offer the same number of liberal arts courses that a bigger university would have, but they have more than enough for most students. My son has pretty diverse intellectual interests too and he is happy with the course offerings. Average GPA of entering class is 3.8, but from what I hear they are very holistic in reading applications and have a special understanding of gamer/techie types ;-)</p>
<p>Among small not-super-selective engineering schools, there is also New Mexico Mining, which is relatively inexpensive. CS course selection appears good. History course selection depends on the area of interest (seems to be heavy on US history, regional history, and history of science and technology). But economics appears to be limited to introductory courses.</p>
<p>South Dakota Mines is even less expensive, but humanities and social studies offerings appear very limited other than perhaps English.</p>
<p>WPI could be a possilbility except for the male/female ratio - my son feels strongly about more of a balance there. Also I think he wants a bit more in the way of liberal arts offerings.</p>
<p>The truth is that in a CS major he’s likely to have little room for outside courses anyway. Even so, who knows if he’ll stick to CS, a kid like him with wide-ranging interests? In fact I’m betting he’ll go interdisciplinary. Also, he really wants to go to a “regular” school, one with a variety of kids, not just math and science kids. He’s attracted to nonconformists, likes smaller classes wtih accesible teachers, and doesn’t want to work himself to death in a hard-core program - he wants some balance in college, including fun and down time. </p>
<p>A unique laundry list, maybe? This is why I’m thinking a small or medium-sized school with lots of LA offerings and great engineering/ CS program. Something along the lines of Tufts. Tufts is a reach, but his counselor says it may be accesible through ED - they love kids from my son’s private NYC school. But I also need some slightly less competetive alternatives -</p>
<p>Folks have mentioned Lafayette, Lehigh, Union, Bucknell, Colgate. These all sound pretty good, and more accessible, but not a great social match - preppy and Greek (as you said, BeanTownGirl). Lafayette seems the best of these, and we’re visiting today. Brandeis? Case Western Reserve? Or a smaller LAS with good CS, Carleton, St. Olaf, U Rochester? Thoughts?</p>
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<p>Not necessarily. Berkeley L&S CS major requirements take up about half of the courses a student typically takes. That leaves plenty of room for other courses. Berkeley EECS major requirements take up about two thirds of the courses a student typically takes; some of the rest is required humanities and social studies breadth, leaving some free electives (both categories can be used for history and economics, and physics courses can overlap with some of the major requirements or be taken as free electives).</p>
<p>My son really loved Lafayette when we visited; he loved the campus, the more intimate feel, their career services etc. But socially I think it is like Bucknell only smaller - pretty preppy and lots of frats/sororities. I think their administration is trying to exert more control over the frats as there have been so major problems in recent years.
Their CS department is tiny, so that was the one factor that caused it to get crossed off the list at the end. And no robotics either…
Case Western is a great mid-sized university, but the feeling we got at an accepted students reception is that it is a pretty competitive environment, more so for the pre-meds. But it does have really broad offerings and a good mix of students.
I think U. of Rochester is an excellent all-around small university.
Once you start leaning towards LACs then you have the problem of the preppy-ness or Greek life issues. It is really hard to find the perfect solution.
What we tried to express to our son is that even at Bucknell where close to 50% of the student body is Greek, is that still leaves 50% that are not. 50% of a few thousand people is still a lot of people for you to hang out with! And not all kids who go Greek are drunk every weekend. He has finally learned that after his first year at WPI.
Good luck and report back what makes the final cut. I’m curious…</p>
<p>Okay, we just visited Lafayette and Lehigh, and while both have real positives, neither is a match socially. My son is a introverted, NYC techie liberal geeky late-bloomer with broad interests: I just can’t see him thriving at either of these preppy bastions. True that Lehigh has a large engineering crowd, but they seem quite divided from the preppy crowd. My son had the same reaction. We’d like a more socially integrated campus, with more quirky, nerdy, interesting people. But still a strong CS program.</p>
<p>BeanTownGirl, I think you’re right. The LAC challenge is going to be the Greek/ preppy issue. I’m starting to think we’ll either have to find a LAC (with CS) that’s on the quirky/ liberal side, or a mid-sized university that has lots of LA offerings (like Tufts).</p>
<p>The social fit is absolutely critical. This is a kid that never fit in at his prep school, hung with the other techie misfits, and really, really needs a better experience in college. He says he wants a place with free-thinkers and non-conformists. Where is that, for a techie kid?</p>
<p>A giant university would likely have the desired group, although it would be embedded in a sea of others. Whether such a school would be a good fit otherwise (academically*, financially, etc.) and whether he could find his group in the giant crowd, is something that needs to be asked if that comes under consideration.</p>
<p>*Giant universities usually have good selections of course offerings in many subjects, though, as with any school, the nature of major and breadth/core requirements need to be checked if the student wants to take a lot of out-of-major electives.</p>
<p>How about Oberlin? It’s on the large side for a LAC (2800 students), liberal, and a bit less selective than Carleton (though still a reach for his GPA).</p>
<p>Also check out Macalester, another LAC with a liberal reputation. It may be realistic for his GPA & scores (my S with similar stats was accepted with merit money). CS and Math are one department there; the Math program is described as having “a strong emphasis on applied and computational math”. The urban location, unusual for a LAC, could be a big advantage for internship/work opportunities ([Research</a> Opportunities - Mathematics, Statistics, and Computer Science - Macalester College](<a href=“http://www.macalester.edu/academics/mscs/studentopportunities/researchopportunities/]Research”>Mac Research Opportunities - Mathematics, Statistics, and Computer Science - Macalester College))</p>
<p>If he can handle the cold winters, the Twin Cities provide a nice cultural environment (said to have the next highest number of theater seats per capita after NYC).</p>
<p>jennigarden</p>
<p>You’ve done your homework. Take a trip out to Carleton if you can spare the time and expense. The CS program is very popular, very strong foundationally, very well respected, and very heavily recruited by tech co’s for a school of its size. Just as important, the school’s personality/social scene seem like a match made in heaven for your son. His GPA is a bit low but standardized tests scores look solid. A good interview and sincere interest go a long way in Northfield to support an application.</p>
<p>Schools a little less competitive application-wise on your list I’d support are Rochester, Case Western, and Brandeis (Rochester, in particular, may be another very good personality fit). St. Olaf has undervalued strong math/CS offerings but don’t know if he’d bond to the campus culture. Not surprised about his reaction to PA/NE small schools you’ve considered - wouldn’t have guessed they’d hit the social mark. Carnegie and Tufts should be on his list, but Carnegie CS is a major long-shot, less so if applying in H and SS, and don’t know if Tufts is as good a social match as you may think. And ditto about 3/2 programs - not a fan - rarely see them work out as planned. Good luck.</p>
<p>If you take a trip to Carleton, might as well stop by St. Olaf, Macalester, and University of Minnesota - Twin Cities while you are there.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the invaluable advice folks! I’ve booked us a couple of trips: 1) Carleton (including overnight and interview) and Macalester, and 2) Brandeis and Tufts. My son looked at St. Olafs and nixed it, looks too rigid. We’ll also take a trip up to U of Rochester. We’ll visit CMU of course, but as the School of CS is such a huge reach we’re not counting on much, plus my son thinks it looks like too much work. He’s ambitious, but you hear phrases like “backbreaking workload” enough times and it sounds like a bad deal. </p>
<p>I feel like we have a lot of reaches, and could use more easy matches and safeties - any thoughts?</p>
<p>I think he’s got a great shot at Rochester, Brandeis, Case. But if looking to expand the list of less competitives, on the smaller size but not exactly small, consider Santa Clara (lots of cred with SV recruiters) and Northeastern (strong internships, rising profile). On the much larger size but with a chance at honors programs to shrink that down are U Wash, Pitt (if visiting CMU), and most of the Big 10 state schools (Wisc, Ill, Purdue in particular). More competitive but worth a look as well may be Rice.</p>
<p>Okay we’re back from our midwest trip and it’s decided: he’s taking a shot at Carleton ED. He absolutely loved it, a perfect social and academic fit. You were so right, 1190, thanks a million. A big reach but here’s hoping. </p>
<p>If that doesn’t work out he also liked Macalaster - not as much but we’ll apply. U Rochester, Brandeis, Case, Oberlin too. I’m thinking we should skip the UC’s, much as I like the proximity, as we’re trending smaller the farther down this road we go. </p>
<p>Sounds like a list!</p>