<p>Thank you so much for the link to AP credits. It made it easier to add the info to the list I am keeping. I am also trying to gather info on how many general ed requirements the schools on D's list have.
Thanks again!</p>
<p>Evasmom,
You're very welcome. I'm glad my leftover college/conservatory search stuff can be of use to somebody else! :)</p>
<p>All,
Looks like we need to define the difference between a true conservatory and a "conservatory style" BFA which pretty much boils down to the percentage of the curriculum devoted to non-theatre-related general education/liberal arts. I'm more familiar with the acting programs than MT, but at the true conservatories, that percentage is between 0% and 21% with most falling in the 15% range. Some examples are CMU at 5%, Boston Conservatory and SUNY Purchase at 13%, NCSA and Juilliard at around 15%, and CCM MT surprisingly on the outer reaches at 21%. At the "conservatory style" BFAs, the percentage is generally between 25% and 34%. A quick search shows NYU on the lower end of that range at 25% and Michigan on the upper end at around 34%.</p>
<p>Maybe I'll get really bored again and put together a complete list. It could definitely happen since the Theatre History sequence I was signed up for in summer school got canceled when it was too late to get my old job back, all the other summer jobs have been filled, and the freakin' Shakespeare company decided to do a legit musical this summer ... :( Oh, well ... At least I have my music lessons, improv, and a new play that starts rehearsal in July. Bleh ... Maybe somebody will quit at Chili's ...</p>
<p>Looking at percentages of curriculum devoted to liberal arts at each BFA program is a good idea. The issue, however, involves a little more than just looking at percentages. </p>
<p>For instance, BOCO, NCSA, and UArts are examples of stand alone conservatories which are not part of a greater college/university. So, even if BOCO requires 13% in liberal arts (quoting your number), one needs to look at which liberal arts courses are offered or required, whether one wants choices for courses, as well as whether one wishes to be with non BFA students in those classes, too. At BOCO for instance, the liberal arts courses are set Humanities courses, not choices amongst a greater college curriculum. This is fine, but just saying there are differences that are not just percentages in terms of curriculum offerings and the rest of the college environment between going to a strictly conservatory or a conservatory BFA in a college setting. </p>
<p>I would suggest that prospies examine curriculum too. For instance, at Penn State, there were very specific liberal arts requirements. At NYU, the liberal arts courses are in broad distribution areas (sciences and humanities) but there are not required language or math courses, for example.</p>
<p>Speaking of NYU/Tisch...while 25% sounds about right with the humanities/sciences liberal arts courses, Tisch also requires Theater Studies courses which many would consider liberal arts, as well, as they traditionally are courses one would take in a liberal arts BA curriculum and are not the conservatory training courses. The requirements are the two freshman writing courses considered Core Curriculum for Tisch students, two courses in Humanities, two courses in Sciences (which I found to be broadly defined as it includes Psychology, Sociology, Journalism, Political Science!), two courses in either Humanities or Sciences, seven Theater Studies Courses (inc. the two required of Freshmen), and can take Electives (private voice falls under this category I think). The rest is the Professional Training.</p>
<p>True. Actually, when I calculated the percentages, I discounted the theatre history and lit courses from the liberal arts since they are specifically related to the major. All the schools require two or three classes in those subjects. For instance, if you include those courses as liberal arts at Tisch, the percentage would be raised to 31%. </p>
<p>As mentioned in an earlier post, it is also important for one to look at how many of the gen ed/liberal arts classes can be substituted with AP credit thus allowing the student to fill that time with whatever other courses she wants (or nothing) depending on what might be offered by the school. For instance, a student with enough AP credit can potentially satisfy all the non-theatre gen eds through APs at CCM and there are all the course offerings of a large university available depending on the time slot. At SUNY Purchase, all except one can be covered though the pickings will be slimmer since their schedule really only allows for one or possibly two gen eds per semester to be taken in very limited time slots. All except one can also be covered at NCSA though the options are much slimmer since it's a stand-alone conservatory with fairly crippish gen eds taught on about a community college level which are in place mainly so they can be accredited. Juilliard accepts NO AP credit, so 15% it is for the BFA. At CMU, the two non-theatre courses required of MT majors are all-freshman seminars that cannot be exempted and acting majors must take one liberal arts course per semester regardless of how much AP, IB, or transfer credit they bring. Tisch's policy on AP is kind of strange, but the way I understand it is that they will accept up to 32 credits of AP though only eight credits can be used to satisfy the actual gen ed requirements with the rest potentially counted as electives. One big advantage of Tisch, however, is that the training and academics take place on different days so you can take just about any class you want on the non-training days without as much of a problem with scheduling once you get the required stuff out of the way.</p>
<p>Hrmm ... I think I am gonna be bored enough by around mid-week to put together a list of the percentages of gen ed requirements for the major acting and MT schools with notes on AP exemptions and the other factors we've mentioned assuming nobody hires me and I still don't have a life by then. Are there any other factors any of you would like to see included on that list?</p>
<p>fbfresh - Keep this up and I may hire you!</p>
<p>Fishbowl, You are right about AP credits varying greatly among colleges. I seem to remember from a visit sometime back that Ithaca only accepts 6 hours / 2 courses of AP to substitute for required courses. If a student has many more AP credits from HS, they may be out of luck. I hope that this dated information is still accurate.</p>
<p>Fishbowl, you have great research skills! :D</p>
<p>Again, percentages are an interesting stat, but I think that stat alone is not descriptive enough of the overall curricular picture, as I described. Knowing if there are required/set courses or choices, whether the liberal arts are in a college/university setting or just tacked onto a conservatory, and so forth would be considerations. Also, while you say some programs require 2-3 Theater Studies courses, Tisch requires seven of those, so just talking the humanities/sciences isn't the whole picture. While Theater Studies is definitely part of studying theater (lol), it is not the same as the professional training courses.....they are liberal arts style courses with papers and readings and exams. A Tisch student has at least two liberal arts courses (without any electives) each semester if one includes Theater Studies courses which are not on studio days and are academic courses. This may differ from another BFA program and thus just using percentages of "gen ed" isn't always apples to apples. And gen ed at a place like PSU, for example, is different than at NYU because PSU has some very specific requirements. </p>
<p>Anyway, feel free to list percentages if you'd like (and it is an interesting piece of info), but prospies still need to examine each school's curriculum and requirements because the percentages alone are not the full picture. </p>
<p>As well, the OP was talking about the issue of a stand alone conservatory vs. a conservatory within a university setting and that is another consideration on this topic. Also, the level of academic work/challenge is an issue for the OP and for other students as well. Then there is the consideration that someone, for example, at Tisch, could minor (or possibly double major) in another subject. I know a graduate of Tisch Drama who also majored in Chem and did all the premed requirements and is now heading to med school. That sort of thing may not be possible elsewhere. So, each student needs to fully examine the programs and curriculums and requirements at each college. There is quite a bit of variation regarding all of that from school to school. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>We'll have to agree to disagree about Theatre History/Lit/Studies not being more part of the professional training program than liberal arts. In a lot of professional training classes at different schools, you write papers and take tests, etc. on various topics such as script analysis, physiology and body mechanics, vocal anatomy, the IPA, etc. so that part isn't enough to convincingly set them apart in my mind. Those history and lit classes are also where you get a handle on the major works of theatre along with all the historical styles and genres and they are thus completely indispensable to any serious BFA training program - and are part of it. </p>
<p>Thanks also for the correction on the Tisch requirement. That's what I get for relying on someone else's posts ... So, the breakdown there is 48 points of professional training, 28 points of Theatre Studies, 32 points of general education (8 points of core curriculum and 24 points of liberal arts), along with 20 points of electives. By your definition and the way Tisch chooses to list Theatre Studies as somehow separate from professional training, that's 62.5% of your classes outside of professional training which almost puts them in the range of a BA program though I will continue to insist it's really about 32% until someone can convince me otherwise. ;)</p>
<p>I do agree that prospies need to do their own investigations and become as versed as possible in all aspects of the schools theyre auditioning for. However, I do think that the percentage of professional training versus gen eds/liberal arts can be a good place to start in the evaluation process though its not always completely reliable and you should obviously evaluate a lot more than just that. Actually, you didnt mention the main flaw which is that the hours/credits load doesnt always reflect actual time spent in performance-based classes. This varies greatly between the different schools. For instance, leaving out breaks between classes, first term freshmen at SUNY Purchase spend 33.5 hours per week in performance oriented classes but only get 16 semester credits for it while at Rutgers it's 25.5 class hours for 11 credit hours. NCSA is a slightly different animal since theyre on the trimester system and it's 25 class hours per week for 11 credit hours first term. Then, for acting majors at CMU, it's about 17.66 class hours per week for first semester acting majors though they get 28 units of credit for it on some kind of odd grade point scale. I never could get a straight answer out of anyone at Juilliard about all this, but I'm sure they're up there with Purchase. As you implied, another thing you have to consider is the maintenance level of the gen eds outside of class when combined with the professional training and thats gonna vary greatly depending on the rigor of the school's academics as well as individual professors. Also, I won't use hearsay here, but the fact that there is time at some schools to double major suggests a snail's pace in the training to me. There are only so many hours in the day ... Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. Who's to say an actor needs to have his/her butt kicked all the time to grow? Just happens to be the way I like it. :)</p>
<p>This is a wonderful and interesting discussion, but it occurred to me that people going into the audition season may not need to worry tremendously over the mix of courses and hours spent in classes, at least not now. Maybe it will help some in choosing schools to audition for, but there may be other factors to consider, as well.</p>
<p>The reality is that one only really needs to get into these matters once auditions are over and acceptances are in. Why spend time with statistics if you end up not getting into a program? Once you are accepted into several schools, that would be the time to really evaluate each program where you are accepted, and I agree that there are huge differences. </p>
<p>I wish for all of next year's auditionees to have multiple acceptances so you may evaluate statistics at each school!</p>
<p>Ericsmom - I understand what you're saying, but think that in some cases, examining this very aspect could be important to whether the school is a good enough fit to have on your audition list. If you have definite thoughts about what other course work is important to you besides the training, then you don't want to end up at a school where it isn't possible to pursue that plan. There are enough at either end of the spectrum to cut some schools from your list, and still have a good mix to audition for.</p>
<p>If you look at a lot of people's "short lists" of where they want to go - especially if they aren't far into the learning curve yet - it reads something like: Cap 21, CCM, UM, CMU, BoCo (plus or minus one or two). And, these programs are wildly divergent. If they REALLY want a BoCo type program, there are many out there that would be much closer to that, than any of the others listed here. Likewise, if they really love the "extra" academics of a program like Tisch, then BoCo may not be a good fit at all - better to explore other programs.</p>
<p>The goal is to make sure that your audition schools are ones that match as closely what you hope to get out of the college experience as possible.</p>
<p>I agree with MusThCC and Ericsmom even if that sounds funny since they are not saying the same thing. I think MusThCC is right that one should really examine each school to decide whether to even apply and also to figure out what college criteria are important to the individual. That said, Ericsmom's point is well taken because for one thing, there is only a finite number of BFA programs out there and very few are going to match every single ideal criteria you have on your list but one must cast a fairly wide net because of the odds. To get into the nitty gritty of each program isn't necessary until one finds out their true options, meaning where they are admitted. You can get into nitty gritty stats and choose your ideal program ahead of time but the odds of getting in are not great. So, while one should explore as much as possible ahead of time, one shouldn't get too caught up in details unless the schools are true options come April. I think ahead of time, someone should establish their own list of college criteria. However, usually it works out that some schools match that criteria in some areas but not all and other schools match it in other ways, but still not all. Favorites are usually the schools that fit more of your criteria better than other schools. Still, those schools may not be options in the end. Sometimes you have to give in one area to get another and so on. To only be satisfied with too narrowly defined criteria when the admit rates are so low, can be a set up for disappointment later. So, keeping an open mind, while also having preferences and looking for fit, is required with BFA admissions. My D originally had favorites but as the audition season wore on, she tried to see the positive aspects of every school on her list as she truly might have ended up attending. It is important to like every school on your list and explore it fully but not every school is going to match up just so with your entire list of college criteria. Favorites are natural. But with BFA schools, one must stay open to variations in the "ideal". </p>
<p>Fishbowl...I agree that the Theater Studies courses are essential to the professional theater training and so are related and are not like gen ed or something. I am simply saying that the Theater Studies courses are part of the liberal arts curricula. A BA program would have studies in theater, for instance. These are not practical training courses but academic courses. I wasn't saying that reading, papers, or exams are limited to liberal arts and theater studies courses. My D has had tests, papers, journals, readings for her professional training classes too! The liberal arts portion of her curriculum is NOT more than her professional training. While the points/credits may appear a certain way, one must look at the hours spent in class. For the studio courses, way more hours are spent in class. They attend 9-6 three days per week just for those professional training classes. Those classes require a LOT LOT LOT of homework...prep work....preparing songs, scenes, etc. It is nothing like a BA program. The pace of the performance based classes is anything but a snail's pace. Prep work is required daily. In fact, there is a lot of homework/prep over the summer required for every performance based class my D has! It is quite intensive. They go to school all day, have plenty of homework for both studio classes and liberal arts classes and then lengthy crew assignments and then rehearsals for shows they may be in. Also, my D's private voice lessons must be fit in and require travel time to the teacher's studio off campus. Some do other activities..like my D rehearses two nights per week for her a capella group and has a part time job that involves some weekends (related to theater). I'd say she is going all day, all night and all weekend. The pace is intense. The hours involved are far far greater than a BA program. I'd say their butts ARE kicked, :D. Double majors, by the way, are not common. A minor may be.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The goal is to make sure that your audition schools are ones that match as closely what you hope to get out of the college experience as possible.
[/quote]
^ Word.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It is important to like every school on your list and explore it fully but not every school is going to match up just so with your entire list of college criteria. Favorites are natural. But with BFA schools, one must stay open to variations in the "ideal".
[/quote]
Word, also. However, I believe you probably up your chances somewhat by being more selective regarding fit in choosing which smaller programs youll audition for instead of being all scattershot and just shooting for a few very different Ivys along with some obvious safeties. The auditors at many of the smaller programs have learned to recognize certain types of students that would be a good fit (or not) for varying reasons besides pure talent which partially explains the seeming randomness in most students acceptance/rejection results. See the Q&A on the first two pages of Doctorjohns Otterbein thread where he explains how Some very gifted people would not do well here for evidence of this. It is true that there are a limited number of schools for MT as compared to the huge numbers of other types of majors, but there are still enough that a student can and should pick and choose which ones would be the best fits with a little honest research. There are thirty listed at the top of this forum and many more on the big list in the FAQ. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I agree that the Theater Studies courses are essential to the professional theater training and so are related and are not like gen ed or something. I am simply saying that the Theater Studies courses are part of the liberal arts curricula. A BA program would have studies in theater, for instance. These are not practical training courses but academic courses.
[/quote]
Again, well have to agree to disagree. My point is that they play right into the professional training and are thus in reality a part of it. </p>
<p>
[quote]
The pace of the performance based classes is anything but a snail's pace. Prep work is required daily. In fact, there is a lot of homework/prep over the summer required for every performance based class my D has! It is quite intensive. They go to school all day, have plenty of homework for both studio classes and liberal arts classes and then lengthy crew assignments and then rehearsals for shows they may be in.
[/quote]
While snails pace may not have been the best choice of words, what you have described is true at every single BFA program in the country. The question is about the comparative intensity of the professional training classes themselves aside from academics. For someone whose experience has been primarily in h/s musicals and performance-based summer camps, it might feel very intense when combined with the academics, but for someone with a lot of prior process-based training it is pretty slow going at least in one unnamed non-MT studio first year. ;) Its baby steps. I personally found this to be true at another school where gen ed/liberal arts made up around a third of the curriculum and Ive heard similar statements from kids from my process-based h/s program who attend schools with a high percentage of liberal arts. The ones who are having their butts kicked every day by the training are at the true conservatories where the academic load is under 20% of the curriculum. Any other butt kicking that is happening comes from the combination of training and academics and not the training alone. </p>
<p>Again, this isnt to say that one approach is necessarily better than the other. Theyre just different. Shoot Look at the success of recent Michigan grads who come from a school with a comparatively large academic load. Is the pace of their training program aside from academics as intense as that at CMU or CCM? Probably not. Are they still turning out excellent, highly marketable performers who are doing just as well or better than their conservatory counterparts? Hellz yes they are! </p>
<p>You cant have it every way around. If there were a program with the training intensity of Juilliard combined with the academic intensity of Princeton, I doubt thered be many grads. Few could survive it. Certainly not 300 per year. Its about balance and how individuals and schools choose to use their virtually scarce or limited resource of hours in the day to obtain maximum satisfaction of their unlimited training and academic wants. Yay for paraphrasing Econ 224! Maybe that time devouring gen ed was worth taking after all. :)</p>
<p>I think Fishbowl makes a good point that is borne out by our experience of visiting a conservatory BFA ATP program. For some people this program would not be among the top 5 but might be in the top 10 schools in the country. While the kids days, nights and weekends were all spoken for .. we visited for two full days sitting in on many classes, saw a performance, etc. and while the school uses the word intense, its not the word I would use. We came away concerned that it was not intense enough. </p>
<p>We hired a faculty member of that school (who is a professional actor) to work one on one with daughter. After the first session he claims that as a junior in hs she is at the same level as the juniors in his program. We concluded that she would be pretty board there for the first couple of years. We also visited a school with the same level of name recognition asking daughter if it would be too intense for her.</p>
<p>Fishbowl, I can't speak for the "intensity" at other Tisch studios, just the one my kid is in, CAP21. She doesn't find it too intense for her, though it is demanding and challenging. She was used to a very full schedule all day, night and weekend before she ever got there. Some find a BFA to be more than they can handle and at all programs, there are often some who switch out. </p>
<p>I agree with you that Theater Studies courses are INTEGRAL to the professional conservatory classes and are connected! I was simply saying that they are academic in nature compared to studio/conservatory classes. Thus when talking about percentages of time in professional training conservatory style classes vs. academically oriented classes, I think of the Theater Studies classes (which at Tisch require 7 semesters) as part of their academic load and in fact, take place on non studio days. Those classes are akin to ones a person would take in a BA theater degree program, whereas the conservatory style classes in a BFA program are not normally part of a BA liberal arts program. That's all I meant. When you were going to list percentages, therefore, it would not be the full picture because at some schools, theater studies may mean just 2-3 courses (as you indicated) and at some, like Tisch, it may mean 7 courses and again these are academically oriented and not performance oriented...though I fully agree that they CONNECT in a major way to the performance studies. </p>
<p>As you say, each person is going to enter a BFA program with a varied background from the next person. Many are used to the intensity of the process and the time, as well. Some, perhaps less so. </p>
<p>I think you can get your butt kicked at a conservatory BFA that also includes some academic classes. Since you are counting the Theater Studies academic classes as part of the professional training, that would mean that a Tisch student, for example, only takes ONE liberal arts course per semester. That is not much more than at a place like CCM. For instance, my kid has studio three full days per week. On the other two days, she has one Theater Studies course (which you count as part of the conservatory training) and one Humanities/Sciences/Writing course, plus private voice. That proportion of the liberal arts part (not counting Theater Studies since you don't categorize that as part of the liberal arts component) is not too different from BOCO....at BOCO there is a humanities course every semester too. I just don't know if they have as many of the Theater Studies courses, which was a point I was making when you get into wanting to list percentages. </p>
<p>In any case, each person, from varied backgrounds, skills and levels of preparation, needs to investigate every school on their list. They should not compose a list because the schools are so called MT "Ivies" but find ones that match their individualized list of college criteria. I would say that to ANYONE applying to ANY kind of college, not just for theater. It amazes me when I see students on the other forums who have college lists with all 8 Ivies on them....each of those schools are VERY different from one another and so it appears as if there is a mentality of "Ivy or bust" whereas the only way I can see formulating a college list (and is how my kids did so), is to first arrive at one's college criteria/preferences and then find schools that are a good match. For example, CCM is a top school in the field of MT but my own kid opted to not apply because the school did not fit her criteria, even though it is a fine fine program! As you say, there are OVER 30 BFA in MT programs and so one person's list need not and should not necessarily match the next person's list. However, there are still a finite number of BFA programs compared to someone selecting regular colleges where there are hundreds to choose from.</p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Quote: As you say, there are OVER 30 BFA in MT programs and so one person's list need not and should not necessarily match the next person's list. However, there are still a finite number of BFA programs compared to someone selecting regular colleges where there are hundreds to choose from.
(Sorry - I can't figure out how you all make the pretty quote boxes!)</p>
<p>I don't have as much time on my hands as Fishbowl, but I know that there have been several new programs started in the last few years. I did a "Musical Theatre Major" search, and came up with 26 colleges and universities with a Musical Theatre Major which do not appear on the "Big List". I didn't research BA vs. BFA vs. BM, but there appeared to be a mixture. While it still is a finite number of programs, it is definitely expanding.</p>
<p>My D is already in school, but I would suggest for those still in the search process that they check out some of the newer and lesser-known programs. They may find a hidden gem which closely matches what they want in a program, may have fewer people auditioning, thus bettering your odds, and may be more generous in scholarships.</p>
<p>MusThCC- Have those schools since been added to the big list? Since this is the best source of info many people have found, it would be nice to have as much info as possible in one place. It's wonderful that you did all that research, and I just hope it is available to others now as well.</p>
<p>Nope - if I can't even figure out how to put a quote on this page, what are the odds that I would know how (or be authorized) to amend another page? LOLOL However, if someone who DOES know how to do it wants to email or PM me, I'd be happy to provide them with the info.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Fishbowl, I can't speak for the "intensity" at other Tisch studios, just the one my kid is in, CAP21. She doesn't find it too intense for her, though it is demanding and challenging. She was used to a very full schedule all day, night and weekend before she ever got there.
[/quote]
It has been pretty well documented on this forum that CAP21 students sometimes switch into other studios third year because they find the acting portion of the triple threat training to be deficient for their purposes. Also, it sounds like your kid did a lot of musicals in h/s, community theatre, and at the Stage Door Manor summer camp before she went to Tisch. From the actor training perspective, thats mostly performing not training. Im not saying thats a bad background to have, but its not the same as starting college/conservatory with anywhere from two to six years of process-based actor training. The experience is completely different. As an example, I think youve said that she is already an accomplished musician. Imagine her being stuck in a music class with someone like me who apparently has some musical talent, but has only done things by ear and is just now learning to read notes and rhythm. Shed be bored out of her skull! While the learning curve for acting may not be quite as long as that for music, its still a very long road and most of these schools typically place all the actors in the same class regardless of prior training. The difference is that the college/university BFAs typically start off with baby steps for those whove not yet learned to read and gradually increase the pace while the conservatories allow for a few baby steps before taking off at a full gallop leaving those same students hanging on for dear life with absolutely no time or energy left for rigorous academics. This is why a large number of the students you see at the top conservatories either come from arts h/s backgrounds or have extensive professional resumes. Its not that theyre any more talented, but their needs are different because of their backgrounds and those schools tend to be geared towards them. This is also why I think it is important to distinguish between the two types of programs. Ill say again that one is not necessarily better than the other, but the differences are important to know when looking at prospective schools and it does nobody any good for a school to claim its something its not. There is no end-all be-all Chuck Norris of MT or acting schools, but there might be a several semi-Chuckies for those who do their research and make intelligent picks on where they'll apply/audition instead of pursuing some unfounded romantic notion about the "Ivies." </p>
<p>
[quote]
Thus when talking about percentages of time in professional training conservatory style classes vs. academically oriented classes, I think of the Theater Studies classes (which at Tisch require 7 semesters) as part of their academic load and in fact, take place on non studio days. Those classes are akin to ones a person would take in a BA theater degree program, whereas the conservatory style classes in a BFA program are not normally part of a BA liberal arts program.
[/quote]
Okay. Due to the variations in numbers of courses required, youve convinced me that perhaps the Theatre History/Studies/Lit classes might best be put in their own percentage category if/when I get around to making the list. See
Im reasonable. :) However, also keep in mind that the better BA Theatre Studies programs offer enough acting, voice, and movement classes to roughly equate to the first two years of a lower intensity BFA. Would that make them somehow separate from the major? I think not.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Since you are counting the Theater Studies academic classes as part of the professional training, that would mean that a Tisch student, for example, only takes ONE liberal arts course per semester. That is not much more than at a place like CCM.
[/quote]
Interesting. There are a minimum of thirteen gen ed classes that need to be completed at Tisch to get a degree. At that rate, it would take a kid with no AP or transfer credit at least an extra semester (and an extra $25,000) to graduate. To finish on time, she would need to come in with at least five APs with scores of 4 or better. Remember also that one of the oft extolled virtues of Tisch on this forum is that students can and do double major. It doesnt seem feasible at all for someone to do it that way and graduate on time. </p>
<p>Why is it that almost every in-depth discussion on this forum ends up revolving around Tisch? Youd think there were no other schools out there I hope someone has access to the big list so the new programs MusThCC found can be added. They deserve some consideration, too.</p>
<p>Fish, </p>
<p>I don't think the thread should be ABOUT Tisch. The OP wanted a BFA program for her D that had some liberal arts and that were academically challenging. As discussions go, topics come up, there are responses to further posts and so on. In order to respond to something in a post and if it is about a program, then the response will be about that. Certainly all aspects of the OP's question/topic should be discussed and not limited to one topic that came up along the way. </p>
<p>Since you were responding to my post above, or at least appear to be in some parts as you are quoting me, I'll respond to your post, even if Tisch is discussed in part of your post. </p>
<p>"It has been pretty well documented on this forum that CAP21 students sometimes switch into other studios third year because they find the acting portion of the triple threat training to be deficient for their purposes."</p>
<p>I have not seen this well documented though may have missed it. I know that there was one poster who had discussed this who was in a DIFFERENT studio at Tisch, not CAP, and that post was subsequently deleted by Roger Dooley who posted:</p>
<p>"We determined that several posts that purported to have been written by Tisch students (a couple of different threads) were not posted by Tisch students, but in fact by non-student posters who had their posting privileges revoked a few weeks ago. We do not allow members to misrepresent themselves, pose as others, register with mulitiple identities, or re-register after losing membership privileges."</p>
<p>My daughter has only gone to CAP for one year so far. So far, she is very happy with the acting training and one aspect to consider in choosing Tisch is that it is a Drama school, not a music school...just a difference in terms of emphasis. Each person wants/likes different approaches. My D happens to really like the acting training and had a wonderful acting teacher this past year, Larry Arancio. They take acting three times per week. There is a lot of work on scenes that are assigned. </p>
<p>"Also, it sounds like your kid did a lot of musicals in h/s, community theatre, and at the Stage Door Manor summer camp before she went to Tisch. From the actor training perspective, thats mostly performing not training. Im not saying thats a bad background to have, but its not the same as starting college/conservatory with anywhere from two to six years of process-based actor training."</p>
<p>I really do not wish to make the thread about my own child other than I've given any information I have from her program (which fits the criteria that the OP is looking for, though I suggested other schools as well and in fact, thought your list was an excellent one). I will respond to your comment, however. That is not a full picture of my D's background at all. In fact, it is highly important to have training, not just performance experience. Training in voice, acting, and dance is critical. Production experiences are additional learning opportunities. My D has been studying voice for years...private lessons, group lessons, workshops, chorus, select choir, jazz, and so on. If she had no training, I doubt she'd get into a BFA on production experience alone. She also has an extensive background in music her entire life....three instruments, private lessons, National Piano Auditions for ten years, band, jazz band, jazz theory, music theory, etc. She has won state awards in classical voice and jazz voice and an NFAA merit award. She has a solid background in music theory and placed out of the college courses that were required. She is has been a director and musical director and arranger of music and sight reads proficiently, and so on. She has trained in ballet, pointe, jazz, tap, modern and hip hop for 13 years for about 13 hours per week including select repertory troupes and has worked as a choreographer. At Stagedoor Manor, it is not just a performance camp. Rather, they take 8 classes there every three week session and she has attended for 16 sessions over 8 summers, and these classes have included Master Acting Classes. She also worked with a private acting coach who teaches on the college level. She has had more training in singing and dancing than acting but does have acting training (not counting the dramas she has been in, including professional). She was flattered to even make the waitlist for ACTING at CMU given that she has more singing/dancing training than acting classes over the years. Yes, she has production experience and no, it wasn't all school or summer youth theater, but actually has done professional paid theater as well. The adult productions she has been in are learning opportnities as well. </p>
<p>The thing is, you went to a performing arts HS. We don't have those in our state. Therefore, here... after going to school all day (though in school, my D was involved in music), she, like many others who don't go to PA high schools, had to supplement the training every afternoon, evening and weekend with lessons/classes, etc. More hours may be involved because it is in addition to regular school. However, please realize that she, like most kids I know in BFA programs at every top conservatory, have been training in all three areas of MT during the school year and in summers. At CAP, her peers have similar backgrounds with variations...some went to PA high schools as well. I haven't heard the kids who came out of PA high schools claiming that the work in the BFA program was not challenging enough. Perhaps some may feel that way, but I am not aware of it. Perhaps since you focused on acting in a PA HS, the training at a place like CAP would not be fitting. I am not sure any MT program would suit your needs since you are going after acting training. My D feels, as do some of her peers, that while she had lots of training before college, that there is still so much more to learn and to grow. As well, it is stimulating to be in an environment with many other talented youth as it pushes you and one is not so much a standout as one had been in a more local venue. </p>
<p>"This is why a large number of the students you see at the top conservatories either come from arts h/s backgrounds or have extensive professional resumes."</p>
<p>Over the years, my D has made many friends who have gone onto BFA programs due to the fact that she spent 8 summers with kids from around the country and even other countries who were passionate about theater and many of whom chose to go onto BFA programs, and some to BA ones. These kids, for the most part, had similar backgrounds in terms of training and certainly spent their summers in the same capacity. From this peer group, I know kids who went onto Juilliard, UMich, CCM, CMU, Tisch, Steinhardt, BOCO, BU (Acting), NCSA, Emerson, Syracuse, Ithaca, UMiami, USC, Northwestern off the top of my head. Some opted to go the BA in theater route such as Brown, Yale, Harvard, Cornell, Penn, Tufts, Vassar, Muhlenberg, Skidmore (others too but those are the ones I can think of where several have gone). Rarely did any of these kids go to PA high schools. All have production experiences. A few have done professional theater, including my D. I can think of a peer who is heading to Northwestern in the fall who has been in two Broadway shows. I have not heard any of these kids say they feel "stuck" or that the work is not challenging in any of these BFA programs. The girl I know studying acting at Juilliard went to a private prep school (not a PA school) and went to SDM for many summers. I don't think that all the students at the top BFA programs are from PA high schools or have professional experience. Some do but it is not required. So much rides on the audition. Obviously to be good in an audition, one is the sum of their training and even prior performance experiences. </p>
<p>"The difference is that the college/university BFAs typically start off with baby steps for those whove not yet learned to read and gradually increase the pace while the conservatories allow for a few baby steps before taking off at a full gallop leaving those same students hanging on for dear life with absolutely no time or energy left for rigorous academics."</p>
<p>I am not clear on the distinction you are making between BFAs in a college/university setting from stand alone conservatories. These are easier? Hmm, not sure I agree. The stand alone conservatories are BOCO, UArts, Shenandoah, and not sure where else....I'm talking ONLY of MT (so Juilliard or NCSA are not in this group). CCM is in a university setting. CMU is mostly all conservatory with very little liberal arts so perhaps that should be in the "stand alone conservatory"? But I definitely don't think the BFA program at a place like UMich, Tisch, or CCM go slowly. I think the talent pool is as strong at a BFA program that is not a stand alone conservatory. After all, many students have opted for such a setting out of choice. This includes kids I know who are Equity or have even been on Broadway. </p>
<p>As I mentioned before, if you knock out the Theater Studies courses at Tisch (since you are grouping that with the professional theater training, though I saw those courses as more academic in nature but related to the training), then there is one liberal arts course per semester, which is not too different than at many conservatories I've looked into. The difference may be the rigor/challenge level compared to a BFA program's academic offerings at a place that is less selective to be admitted to ACADEMICALLY. </p>
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<p>"However, also keep in mind that the better BA Theatre Studies programs offer enough acting, voice, and movement classes to roughly equate to the first two years of a lower intensity BFA. Would that make them somehow separate from the major? I think not."</p>
<p>I think one difference in your reasoning than my observations is that you are talking more of ACTING programs and I am talking of BFA in MT programs which are not like BA degree programs at all. A BA in Theater Studies major is not going to get the same thing as the first two years of the BFA in MT training at a place like CAP. I have yet to find a BA in Theater Studies that involves 8 semesters of voice, 7 semesters of private voice, 8 semesters of tap, jazz and ballet, 8 semesters of voice/speech, 8 semesters of acting, and so forth as is found in a BFA program (going by Tisch's curriculum but I am not just refering to Tisch here). The hours devoted to this training over 4 years in a BA Theater Studies program doesn't equate to 2 years of BFA professional MT training, in my view. </p>
<p>"Interesting. There are a minimum of thirteen gen ed classes that need to be completed at Tisch to get a degree. At that rate, it would take a kid with no AP or transfer credit at least an extra semester (and an extra $25,000) to graduate. To finish on time, she would need to come in with at least five APs with scores of 4 or better. Remember also that one of the oft extolled virtues of Tisch on this forum is that students can and do double major. It doesnt seem feasible at all for someone to do it that way and graduate on time."</p>
<p>I don't wish to focus on Tisch but since you are stating this, I think it should be clarified since the OP and other readers may be reading and considering the program. I don't know what 13 "gen ed classes" you mean. Students in Drama must take two freshmen semesters of the "core curriculum" which are two (one per semester) writing courses related to the arts. They must take two courses in the Humanities, two courses in the Sciences, and two courses in either the Humanities or the Sciences. So, that is a total of EIGHT liberal arts courses that are NOT the Theater Studies courses (need to take seven of those, inc. two required freshmen courses) or the Professional Training. There are also electives but for CAP students, PRIVATE VOICE which is for seven semesters, ARE electives and use up the majority of elective points required, I believe. Each of my D's semesters, for instance, in freshman and soph years, consists of: professional studio courses (ie., acting, vocal tech or vocal performance, ballet, jazz, tap, voice/speech and most also have music theory but she placed out), one liberal arts course, private voice (required for CAP but counts toward electives), and one Theater Studies (academic in nature) class. I'm not clear how you got 13 required "gen ed" classes but maybe I don't get the requirements? By the way, all the graduate friends of my D graduated Tisch in four years. One was even pre med. My D, btw, entered with no AP credits. She will most definitely graduate in 4 yrs.</p>
<p>In any case, finding a BFA program is about "fit" and what criteria someone wants in their college. For some, they only want the professional training and for others, they prefer some academics with the professional training. Some feel strongly that an actor who has an academic background, can be a thinking actor. Some also want to be trained to go into the profession but also be educated, though won't get as broad an education as in a BA program. Many of the most talented theater youth I know happen to coincidentally be very good students and many of those wanted a BFA in a college/university setting. Others I know do not care at all about academics. They are not necessarily more talented as actors but just are not too into academics. That's why establishing one's college preferences is crucial before selecting colleges to apply to. Many go after schools' reputations, but truly need to step back and determine what they want in a college and then find schools that closely match that, even if the match is not 100% in every respect but enough that they like the school and can see themselves attending. An openess to exploring many possibilities is also necessary, as Ericsmom says, because with the high selectivity quotient at many BFA programs, one may not be handed their ideal/first choices and there are truly many programs where one can thrive.</p>
<p>When I am advising students in selecting colleges, I find that some students' preliminary list that they created on their own consists of only "name" or "top" programs, and in fact, the "fit" is not a good one and in many cases, the student is not nearly qualified. As MusThCC mentions, that even if there are a finite number of BFA in MT programs, there are more than one would be able to apply to, so there IS an element of selection around "fit" and people need to really look at the many options out there and not just go after "names". In some cases, the name school is not a good fit. In some cases, the student's stats won't put him/her in range, and so forth. While I don't wish to discourage anyone from a "dream" school, I try to encourage students to find schools that can be a dream school that is more likely for them and even a better fit and one where they would be more in range for the applicant pool. Finding schools for students is rather a fun match making exercise, if the student is "open" to considering the many gems out there that they may not have heard of or know as well.</p>