liberal arts vs. conservatory

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>soozievt: </p>

<p>"I don't know which program, Steinhardt or Tisch that you considered liberal arts oriented or conservatory oriented. Steinhardt is a BM degree. Tisch is a BFA which is conservatory oriented."</p>

<p>Actually from what I read on "Colleges for Musical Theater Major FAQ" Steinhardt was initially a more appealing choice because of the description "it is not a conservatory style program" as opposed to Tisch, which states "it is considered a conservatory-style program." However, over the last day or so, I've been doing research on how many credits out of requirements needed for graduation with a BFA (or BM) are needed to fulfill gen ed requirements or electives, in other words, a chance for her to meet other people outside the MT program. That is important to her. For example, although one wouldn't consider Ithaca a conservatory, 97 out of a needed 121 credits to graduate are pretty much planned out - that doesn't leave as much room to pick a few other classes as say, Steinhardt. I understand that there's not necessarily a correlation between the number of credit hours you're taking any given term and how much time you actually spend in any classroom during any given week. </p>

<p>I had a new thought this week, one I shared with my D. With her academic stats so high, I'm willing to cut a deal with her. If she doesn't get into an auditioned-based program, but is willing to consider some top-notch academic schools that have BA programs in theater (or English if she wants) where she can get great scholarships, I would be willing to contribute our savings on undergrad tuition toward an MFA. Of course, she could change her mind in the meantime, and decide she can fulfill that passion without a grad degree, but it's still a door through which she can get formal training in a university setting. I realized all this when, as I was looking at different schools, many of the MFA programs mention that they get applicants from all walks of life, with many different kinds of undergrad degrees. This is actually the route her theater director took - undergrad in secondary education, then got his MFA from DePaul. He attributes this diversity of experience to his successes he had in the finance business world for 10 years. And now he gets to teach, and return to the stage as available. The possibilities are truly endless if you are committed, but persistent. Perhaps my own making a major career shift in my late 30's (returning to school for my MA in an area totally unrelated to my undergrad degree) has reinforced that philosophy that we're life learners and can do almost anything we set our minds to. I won't even begin to tell you what my ACT scores were out of high school (truly, truly embarrassing - let's just say there was not a number 2 in the score results!) But I found my passion, applied myself, got into grad school and made mostly A's (I think 4 B's). And now I have a somewhat flexible job that allows me to schedule work around my D's major performances, college trips, and auditions this fall/winter. So the door is never closed, but sometimes we prefer to have someone open it for us (getting directly into an auditioned program as a freshman) as opposed to searching for the key that works.</p>

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<p>Teri, </p>

<p>First, I applaud you for going back to school as an adult. I have taught both undergraduates and graduates in my field who are adult learners (not traditional aged students) and I really admire them. They juggle many things...school, family/kids, work. Usually they are highly motivated. </p>

<p>Anyway, there are many paths to a career in theater. A BFA is not the only path. I know some very talented theater kids going the BA route. Many who make it in this field have BAs (not always even in theater) and some have no college at all! </p>

<p>Your point about an MFA is a good one but I want to point something out to you. For a kid going into acting...I think there are two good paths to consider....a BFA in Acting or a BA degree (possibly in theater) followed by an MFA. However, for someone going into MUSICAL theater, there really are not MFA degree programs in this field. Of course someone can still do an acting based MFA program anyway. But for a MT person, the BA/MFA path isn't quite the same option that comes to mind for an acting student. </p>

<p>I'm not sure what you mean about "cutting a deal" but my personal opinion is that whatever path your D chooses for her college selection, it really ought to be what she truly wants. IF she really really wants a BFA, I'd encourage you to let her pursue that. She could apply to some BFAs and some BAs. Remember, if she does a BFA in a university setting that has some liberal arts, she is still getting a college degree and if she doesn't make it for some reason on stage (tough odds), she still will have her education and that will suit her well in life/career. A college degree still opens doors and someone's major is not the only thing they can do. Many people work in fields that were not their college major. As well, there are many jobs in the arts that her background will be well suited to.</p>

<p>Speaking as a parent of someone who attends a BFA program in a university...my D's friends are concentrated in Tisch but not all are in musical theater. She also knows kids not in Tisch and is looking forward, in particular, after this past year, to taking some courses with non-Tisch kids. A BFA student is not going to take as many liberal arts courses as a BA student, so that is a fact no matter where she goes. BUT, some BFA programs do have a nice variety and amount of academic courses with choices. If in a university setting, she'd have many academic courses to choose from and also would be living amongst non theater students as well. </p>

<p>The decision between a BA and BFA program is an important one and there is lots to consider. It sounds like your D is leaning toward the BFA route. If she feels academics are important to her, then she ought to select schools that have a liberal arts component, examine the curriculums, and find some programs where there is a higher academic standard of admissions if she prefers a certain level of selectivity/challenge.</p>

<p>As I mentioned before, there are some challenging BA colleges with active musical theater on campus. I listed you some earlier. As I have a kid at Brown, I can tell you that MT opportunities abound there. My girls are friends with a male student at Brown who is currently on leave and has the lead in the National Tour of RENT. A girl who is a graduate of Yale just got cast in the new Bdway cast of Les Mis. Examples of that sort abound.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
However, for someone going into MUSICAL theater, there really are not MFA degree programs in this field.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Must beg to differ - although they are most definitely a rare breed, there certainly are MFA MT programs.</p>

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<p>MusThCC...yes, you are right...I worded that incorrectly....MFA in MT programs are a rare breed but are not extinct :D. It's late, so forgive me for the wording there but I agree with you and I am glad you clarified that!</p>

<p>In general, I think of the BA to MFA route as an excellent option for an acting student but not a common option for a MT student and I wasn't sure the OP really was aware of that or not, since she was bringing that idea up as an option for her D.</p>

<p>I'm trying to think of some MFAs in MT....Univ. of Central Florida, Roosevelt, CCM....are there others?</p>

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<p>BoCo has one.</p>

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<p>Teriwtt,
That’s a great idea about the MFA. With your D’s stats, she can probably get a full ride to any number of state university honor’s programs where she could get a BA in Theatre, Dance, or Music and supplement the other two areas with electives or possibly even a minor. The trick will be to find the schools that have an active MT scene in the surrounding community since most universities will concentrate on straight plays in their mainstage seasons. It might also be preferable to look for schools that don’t have an MFA or where the MFA isn’t particularly strong since the MFAers tend to eat up most of the casting opportunities at a lot of places. An MFA need not be in MT, either, as long as she continues to work on her singing and dance skills in undergrad and gets her stage time in musicals. Actually, most MFA in Acting programs include MT as part of the curriculum though it’s not necessarily the main focus. It’s all-the-way-around cheaper, too! Many MFA schools not only offer the opportunity for teaching fellowships, but also grant tuition waivers to those who are accepted. Also, even if you have to pay, you’re looking at three years of tuition instead of four. Beyond that, a major advantage of an MFA is that it is considered a terminal degree which allows you to teach at the college level therefore potentially adding years to the back end of your life in the theatre - and providing and an opportunity to actually be able to live off it if you never hit it "big." I actually came within a hair’s breadth of taking that path, myself. As it stands, I’ll probably get one in Directing when I’m older assuming I don’t become a famous “movie sta” or some such. </p>

<p>Sooz,
Since the OP is back and the subject has changed somewhat, I’ll spare everyone the line-by-line ... However, I think I made the difference between a conservatory BFA and a university BFA very clear and it doesn’t involve the “stand alone” idea. For instance, CCM and CMU are both very much conservatories even though they are placed in a university setting. Another such program is Webster. You are right that I’m more familiar with the training at the acting than the MT programs, but the CMU and CCM MT conservatories and the Juilliard, CMU, NCSA, and Purchase acting conservatories do have higher bars to jump early on in the training than the university BFAs. Their having less rigorous academic requirements is by design to account for this due to the limited hours in the day students can spend outside of class working their assignments. Basically, the overall intensity at the conservatories and the college/university BFAs is roughly the same. Students at both types of schools are kept very busy. The difference is in the percentage of what they are busy with. It’s not like the conservatory students get any slack time in their schedules because of the lesser academic load. I also never said that all the students at the conservatories have arts h/s backgrounds or extensive professional resumes. I said a large number of them do and I think this will be confirmed if you ask the students you know who attend them … unless the kids I know have been exaggerating which I seriously doubt. One interesting point that you did bring up is that while the arts h/s kids may have concentrated on acting for several hours a day five and six days a week nine months a year, very few such programs have an MT concentration and many of them will have less of a music and dance background than kids like your D. This is a major difference in an MT vs. Acting program which could potentially dispel a bit of the boredom such students often suffer with the beginning acting classes at the college/university BFAs. As for the CAP21 actor training issue, on 2/14/04, Emilyp114 who I believe to be Alwaysamom’s D said …

[quote]
I don't know what the situation is at other schools, other than rumor, but certainly at NYU the straight drama kids are definitely not second-rate. In fact, we outnumber the MT kids by a huge margin. I think what you'll find in most college drama programs are kids who although they may be great actors, like at the many straight drama studios at Tisch, there are also many talented singers and dancers. Many of us have taken voice and dance prior to arriving in college but our passion is for straight theatre. That doesn't mean that many kids at Tisch aren't as talented in MT as those in CAP21 (in fact, I can think of probably 5 in my studio who are more talented than any I've seen in CAP21), it's just a personal preference that they want one of the other studios at Tisch. Many choose a straight drama program because they realize that they'll get better acting training and that it will give them more options when they graduate. They realize that they have the innate vocal and/or dance talent but they want the strong acting training that the Tisch studios provide. Everyone has different reasons for their choices. Many of the CAP21 kids, as I've stated before, transfer to one of the acting studios after sophomore year to get that extra shot at the acting training. There are also some kids who transfer to CAP21 after sophomore year in order to enhance their vocal training.

[/quote]
It has also in been mentioned several other times, but the search function in the old format is scattershot enough that even I’m not bored enough to wade through all the extraneous hits. This just happened to be the first one I found. </p>

<p>How many points of credit does your D get for taking the voice lessons she’s counting as electives? At most schools, those count as one credit hour. The elective part of the gen ed requirements at Tisch call for twenty. I got thirteen courses by adding five four-point classes to the eight you’ve acknowledged to cover the electives.</p>

<p>Fish :)</p>

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<p>Soozievt: I've been reading your posts and you mention all of the stuff your D has done, what is she doing this summer?</p>

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<p>CCM does NOT offer a MFA in MT. They only offer the BFA.</p>

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<p>I think CCM has a program in place, but don't regularly have a "class". I know Aaron Lazar (currently in Light in the Piazza, soon to be in Les Mis) received a MFA in Musical Theatre from CCM.</p>

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<p>Soozievt, Yes, would you please share with us your D's summer plans? I can't believe everything she has managed to pack into her life up to now! Wow! I would love to know how someone with all her experience plans to spend the first summer out of Tisch. Thanks for thinking to ask this, MTMinded06!</p>

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<p>MusThCC,</p>

<p>It is true that Aaron Lazar earned an MFA in MT from CCM. However, there is no "official" MFA program for MT in place at the school. Mr. Lazar conivnced the faculty to put together an individualized MFA for him after he had received a BA from Duke. He had quite a bit of vocal training as an undergrad, but very little actor training and no dance training. My understanding is that he took classes with the BFA MT students, but was granted a graduate degree. </p>

<p>I have an acquaintance who asked the faculty to put together a MFA in MT program for her several years ago. She was turned down because of her "advanced" age (she was over 30). There is no formal graduate level MT program in place at CCM. I just don't want readers to think that CCM is a wonderful option for graduate school. Their MFA in MT students are very few and far between.</p>

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<p>Earlier in this thread, it was mentioned that Miami is a good liberal arts option. Miami is a "conservatory" program - both for the BFA and BM in Musical Theatre.</p>

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<p>Miami calls its program a conservatory on their website. However, according to their [bulletin[/url</a>] the gen ed requirements for the BFA are as follows:</p>

<p>I. The candidate for the degree of Bachelor of Fine Arts must complete 120 credit hours with an overall quality point average of 2.0 or above as specified in departmental and program sections of this Bulletin.</p>

<p>II. The student must satisfy the College of Arts and Sciences distribution requirements for the Bachelor of Fine Arts by:</p>

<p>A. Satisfactory completion of six credits of English Composition (English 105 and 106 or its equivalent). Admission to English 105 requires a placement test score acceptable to the Department of English. A high test score may exempt a student from English 105 but not from 106 or its equivalent.</p>

<p>B. Satisfactory completion of the General Education Requirements from the areas of study listed below.
1. ENG 105and ENG 106
2. MTH 101 and a course in math numbered above 101. (MTH 107 does not fulfill this
requirement.)
3. Five (5) writing oriented courses above ENG 105 and 106.
4. Six (6) credits in Humanities (from Literature, Philosophy, or Religious Studies)
5. Six (6) credits in Natural Sciences
6. Six (6) credits in Social Sciences </p>

<p>III. Students must satisfy the requirements of a major as determined by the Department of Art and Art History or the Department of Theatre Arts. Students must maintain at least a 3.0 average in their major.</p>

<p>For some reason, the details of their current AP equivalencies are not included in the link from the CollegeBoard website which I assume means they’re being changed. However, I still had a link to the [url=<a href="http://www.miami.edu/admission/ap/%5Dold"&gt;www.miami.edu/admission/ap/]old&lt;/a> one](<a href="http://www.miami.edu/umbulletin/und/artsci/index.htm#bfa%5Dbulletin%5B/url"&gt;www.miami.edu/umbulletin/und/artsci/index.htm#bfa) in my old notes. An interesting tidbit from my notes is that, at least on the old scale, a good AP language score would take care of as many as four of the five writing oriented courses. So basically, depending on how much it’s changed, it looks like you can free yourself to take a good many courses of your choice (or nothing) if you bring in a lot of AP credit. It’s also a fairly rigorous academic school and I remember someone on this list saying that her D was told during her audition that while her talent was a good match, her academic stats weren’t going to be good enough to get in. Interestingly, according to the [url=<a href="http://www.miami.edu/umbulletin/pdf/ASUndergrad0506pdf.pdf%5Dcomplete"&gt;www.miami.edu/umbulletin/pdf/ASUndergrad0506pdf.pdf]complete&lt;/a> bulletin<a href="See%20p.%20146">/url</a>, , MT BFAs don’t even begin the general education curriculum until sophomore year, so freshman year would indeed be like a conservatory. The link to the gen eds for the BM is dead, but the schedule breakdown on the [url=<a href="http://www.miami.edu/umbulletin/pdf/MusicUndergrad0506.pdf%5Dcomplete"&gt;www.miami.edu/umbulletin/pdf/MusicUndergrad0506.pdf]complete&lt;/a> music bulletin<a href="See%20p.%20303">/url</a> doesn’t appear appreciably different from the BFA. One other thing … You should definitely call the school on this, but it looks like you should apply for the BFA instead of the BM if you’re shooting for a big money academic scholarship because music applicants are not eligible for the ones listed on the Financial Aid page.</p>

<p>BTW, my complete list will not be forthcoming. I gots me a job serving Buffalo wings and beer at lunch starting Monday. “Delightfully Tacky, Yet Unrefined …” Bleh … There are worse things I could do. Betcha never thought you’d be getting college advice from one of those girls! "All-American Cheerleader," indeed. :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>Fishbowl...You are delightful :) Good luck and I hope you get a lot of tips!</p>

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<p>OK... since my last post, I've been doing more research; D has added a few more schools. So this is the list: Emerson, Ithaca, Syracuse, Penn State, UMich, NYU, Elon, College of Santa Fe, Marymount Manhattan. I may persude her to drop Santa Fe and Marymount, only because their academics aren't on par with the others. She considered Cal State Fullerton until we found out you can't enter the program as a freshman.</p>

<p>Regarding non-audition programs, I wish academics were stronger at SHSU and Texas State University (Texas State University was called Southwest Texas State University when I attended in the late 70's), because I'd know she'd have family in the area (mine). But their academics are weak (which is why I transferred to UT-Austin). </p>

<p>So upon someone's kind recommendation, I've checked into Muhlenberg, and will highly recommend she consider this as a back-up. I also need to check to see if they offer tuition adjustments for Lutheran rostered ministers' children, since I hope to be rostered by the time she would start. </p>

<p>The other school I ran across is SUNY-Geneseo, which I really can't find anything on this forum about. Several mentions were made to SUNY-Purchase, but not Geneseo. Anyway, it's the most selective of the SUNY schools, so academics are a match. But the web site gives very little information. Does anyone know how many incoming freshman they accept each year, or anything in general that would answer whether this could be considered a backup school even though it's audition based? I'd appreciate any information about this school anyone can offer.
Teri</p>

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<p>SUNY Geneseo is one of the best SUNY schools academically, as you mentioned. It is small and is in the middle of nowhere. Literally. I believe the theater program is a BA degree with either MT or theater options. There is an audition to get in. A girl my D knows of will be a freshman theater student in the fall, so I don't know too much, except to say that she is much more of a "student" than an "actress". So I'm not sure what that says about their program. Of the SUNY schools, Fredonia and Buffalo are the BFA programs. Fredonia is not as academically oriented. Buffalo is a University, so has many options, and certainly a higher academic profile than Fredonia. Buffalo's program is in a bit of transition, however, since the head of it left and went to Elon last year (as dance faculty in MT---and SHE is AWESOME!!!) and I've heard that the program at Buffalo has suffered in the transition. I am not sure how many kids Geneseo takes. I will try to find out and let you know whatever I can. Also, I have heard that ALL students can audition for the shows, and many times the theater students are NOT the ones chosen to be in them! Another point to consider.
Another program you might want to consider is LeMoyne College in Syracuse. They do not have MT as a major, but the faculty in their drama department is excellent! Also, for MT, SUNY Cortland has a BA I'm pretty sure. My daughter is only looking at BFA MT programs, so I'm not as clear on the BA programs.</p>

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<p>Boco's MFA program is not technically for MT. Though it is regulated by the MT department, it is not a masters in MT. It is a masters in music. Boco does not have certification to give MFA in MT.</p>