Liberal Education?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
1

<p>Well, H's fellow universities (Yale, whose representative said ONLY 13% double major there and Princeton, who state on their website that they don't allow dbl majors :O ) dont seem to be big fans of a truly liberal education that other ivys (ie Penn) have as a tenet. I tried to peruse their website, but I couldn't find anything really conclusive. I read something about concentrations, but they said it wasn't the same as a double major etc. So to the crux: Is it possible to dbl major with just a fair amount of extra effort or would the burden be too...burdensome?</p>

<p>thx in advance!</p>

2

<p>Concentrations are what Harvard calls majors. A secondary field is a minor. Some departments do allow what are called joint-concentrations, which is close to a double major in some ways. But basically it is a honors track program, so you must write a thesis. The thesis must bring together the two concentrations. Most departments seem to shy away from it because it must meet both their honors thesis guidelines. However, some allow it most of the time ( i.e math-econ, math-physics, history-east asian studies). I know Econ-History has become very hard to do.</p>

3

<p>well might as well give a personal viewpoint: if i would get into H, i would have around 3.5 units covered w/ ap credits. Personally, my interests are a melting pot between neurobiology and econ/business admin. With that in mind, what would the ideal yet most productive pathway I should take?</p>

<p>once again, thx a ton!</p>

4

<p>Pannaga, Have you looked at the Harvard advising page? You will not be able to get 3.5 units, as you indicated.</p>

5

<p>Well the credits won't really affect your ability to double major, enough credits just give you the ability to graduate early or do a 4th year masters degree.</p>

<p>The main problem with doing any joint-concentration is creating a thesis which fulfills both degree committees requirements. Not only do you have have to be able to write a paper that combines both, but both thesis committees must accept it. We have no business administration here, so if that's what you want I would recommend another school. What do you hope to accomplish with a double major in neurobiology and economics? Maybe if I knew that I could help you out.</p>

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<p>I have gotten a 5 in BC Calc, Chem, Stat, (and am expected to in Bio, and hopefully one of the Phyiscs C tests, if not both) so I guess that is 1+1+.5 + (hopefully a 1 + .5) = 4ish? MSDAD, i got this from this site:
Advanced</a> Standing: General Information Was this the one you were talking about?</p>

<p>Whiterabbit, I was aiming at something similar to the Penn's Life Science and Management program (which would give the student a BA in a life sciences area - my interest: neuroscience, as well as a BS in econ). Anything similar to that, departmentally, or individually oriented opportunities in H?</p>

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<p>Yes, Pannaga, that is the site.</p>

8

<p>Slight derail. So I skimmed that article and I understand the advanced standing and graduating in 3 years or getting a 4th year masters, but can you use AP tests to start in higher classes your freshman year but still take the whole 4 years. For example can I use AP Calc BC to start freshman year with linear algebra and multivar calc?</p>

9

<p>Pannaga- Harvard doesn't have anything like that to my understanding. That program sounds alot like a pre-professional program, something Harvard doesn't support. You'd be much better off just concentrating in Neuro and getting a secondary field in Econ. There is no reason you need a degree in both. If you're absolutely brilliant, and that interest continues, just do a MD/MBA at Harvard Medical School :)</p>

<p>Balaylay- It most cases there is no need to. Departments with linear course tracks give a placement test at the beginning of your freshman year. Those would include Math, Physics, Chem, Bio, and languages. You can sometimes use credit in other department, i.e Econ, but there is usually no official policy and most of the time it is done person by person. I wouldn't worry about skipping classes. Students are always allowed to take the highest level of class they feel ready for, as long as the professor is fine with it. You're not even required to stick with your placement test results. So that AP Calc BC credit is never really even looked at. You take the placement exam and then go from there.</p>

10

<p>whiterabbit, thank you very much; yes I guess doing the secondary field kinda of thing at H = dual degreeing/double majoring somehwere else. This is kind of out there but do employers also take a look at your transcript when reviewing you (because the secondary field does not appear on the diploma)? And also, how does the English/Latin honors tie into this?</p>

11

<p>Note that a secondary field isn't equivalent to a double major- a joint concentration is. A secondary field is more akin to a minor.</p>

12

<p>I don't know how many employers actually review your transcript (some probably do), but no one reviews your diploma.</p>

<p>I don't mean to be disrespectful, but this is a consummately dumb issue that comes up repeatedly. Out in the employment world, no one is systematically rejecting Harvard econ or bio majors in favor of Penn joint degree holders (of whom there are not so many). They ALL have excellent prospects, and which one is more attractive will be based on things like interview, recommendations, and prior experience, not what their degrees are. </p>

<p>A Harvard neurobiology concentrator with substantial economics coursework and business experience will pass anyone's initial screen for a science-business job. And that's pretty much all your transcript/major/GPA does: get you the interview and a more thorough vetting. After that, it's up to you.</p>

<p>In the real world, by the way, the marginal value of any particular undergraduate course is close to nothing. People coming straight out of college rarely have learned anything close to what they need to know to perform well in a real job, no matter what they majored in. What employers want to see is some indication of preparation, learning capacity, and interest. It's not hard for Harvard students to meet that standard.</p>

<p>Also, please note: Harvard undergraduates do not study "business admin". That's something you WOULD have to go to Penn for. Howver valuable it may be, it's not considered a component of a "liberal education". That Penn has an undergraduate business school (and nursing school, and engineering school) indicates that its commitment to "liberal education" is much lower than Harvard's. Whether you think that's good or bad is a separate question, but it's true by definition.</p>

13

<p>jhs, thank you for the input.</p>

<p>Basically, I feel that it will be slightly less work at Penn (granted the amount of work for either college for a feat like this will be extremely high) because there is already an organized curriculum, already set-up internships, etc. While at Harvard, a student could do the same thing, he or she would have to go to greater lengths to get the experience not entirely covered by the education curriculum.</p>

<p>WHy exactly would extra credits not help you to major/minor...if the neuro major req. chem, and you can test out of that (and get some lab credit), there is less burden on your course schedule right?</p>

14

<p>You test out of a class, not the credits. The major still requires the same number of credits in most cases. At least that's my understanding.</p>

15

<p>Hi Pannaga,</p>

<p>Regarding credits- Please understand that there is a big difference between what is Advanced Standing and normal concentration requirements. Advanced Standing is used for graduating the college in three rather than four years, and is most often taken advantage of for financial or similar reasons. However, most concentrations won't let you use AP credit towards their requirements.</p>

<p>There are exceptions- a few majors have requirements that can be placed out of using AP credits. The most common example by far is using BC Calculus to test out of Math 1a and 1b, which would otherwise be required. Examples of concentrations where this is true are Applied Math, Astronomy, and Computer Science. Some concentrations, like my own Statistics, require 21a/b, which therefore require 1a/b or the equivalent AP classes.</p>

<p>In the case you're interested in, Neurobiology, an AP math credit won't reduce the number of courses. From the FAS handbook:</p>

<p>"Two half-courses in mathematics (above the level of Math 1a; ordinarily these courses include Math 1b, Math 19 series, Math 21 series). Students who place into and successfully complete Math 19a (recommended) or higher need to complete one math course; this does not reduce the total number of courses for the concentration."</p>

<p>So while you can skip 1a/b with an AP BC calculus 5, you'll still have to take two math courses. As for chemistry/physics, they require three courses "Physical Sciences 1, 2, and 3; Chemistry 17, 20, 27, 30, 40, and 60; and the Physics 11 series and Physics 15 series." None of these would be granted for AP credit for either chemistry or physics. The requirements would be the same.</p>

<p>You might be thinking about Economics. I again quote from the Handbook:</p>

<p>"Students in the classes of 2011 and beyond may use AP or IB scores to place into 1010a, 1011a, 1010b, and 1011b, but they must replace Social Analysis 10 with two economics electives. Consult the Department Handbook or a concentration adviser for details."</p>

<p>Since you'd clearly be in a class after 2010, your courseload wouldn't be any lighter if you'd taken AP Micro or AP Macro in high school. Courses like the Statistics requirement generally could never be replaced by AP Stat.</p>

<p>So for neurobiology, it's unlikely that any of the AP courses you've taken will put you closer to the concentrations. They're still a good idea- several let you take more advanced classes to cover it than otherwise- but in the case of neurobiology, you'll be taking just as many courses.</p>

<p>I hope I've been helpful. I'm really glad to see you're this specifically interested in the curriculum at Harvard and other schools.</p>

16

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<p>Neither does your concentration. A Harvard College diploma has some formal language and lists your degree along with official signatures and the date, but there is no mention of your major or minor.</p>

17

<p>Coureur, are you sure? My Harvard degree says I've been conferred "the degree of Bachelor of Arts magna cum laude with highest honors in Visual and Environmental Studies." Maybe things have changed? I'm not sure there were minors in my day, but my husband had a double major - as far as I know his degree had both majors, but it's in some drawer at the lab so I can't look it up.</p>

18

<p>You can very easily put a secondary field on your resume, which I think is more important in the job search than having it on your transcript (and certainly more important than having it on your diploma).</p>

19

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<p>My daughter's 2008 diploma is hanging right here on the wall, and it says nothing about any majors. Was yours, back in the day, a Radcliffe diploma? If so maybe those were different (just theorizing).</p>

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<p>Yes, I think the "secondary fields" came along only the past coiuple of years.</p>

20

<p>Catching up. No I was the last class to apply to Radcliffe, but the first class to get a Harvard diploma. I'm thinking that the reason my major is mentioned was because I got departmental honors and they were different from my overall honors. I was one A short in a Social Science. Drat! But I agree with post #18, it doesn't really matter what the diploma says, mine sits in a drawer along with all my other diplomas.</p>