<p>Cheaters are just losers who either aren't good enough or are too lazy to get where they want to go by their own hard work. People who post here supporting cheating are doing so just to form a community that condones their stupid actions. Those who are good enough to succeed don't cheat.</p>
<p>Sometimes I feel a desire to cheat, but I never do. It's my fault that I didn't sudy enough and I will accept the consequences of my actions, rather than cheat my way through. When they say that cheaters never win... it's true. I'd much rather have done the work myself or not done it and suffered consequences. That's life, and you've got to wake up and deal with your own s**t someday.</p>
<p>Cheaters indirectly harm their classmates. Why do they deserve a better class rank than others who work honestly? They'll live life knowing they could never achieve anything through hard work and honesty.</p>
<p>ash, very good post and i do agree with on the fact that this is a very good thread and it has really made me think. Ultimately i think it boils down to whether you feel comfortable cheating and how you percieve the act. If everyone around does it and the teachers turn a blind eye then you will be more inclined to cheat as well, aka peer pressure. Whereas if you are in a cutthroat highschool and are facing a tremendous amount of pressure to suceed, then chances are you will do what ever it takes to get that grade. Or you could be like me, someone who has the brains to do homework, tests, ect; just just doesnt want to <em>waste</em> the time doing it. To me it is a waste, but to others who really cherish learning everything they can, then its a captivating as playing sports is for me, as an example.
I also have to say that cheaters often do win, because life isnt some fairytale where good always truimphs. Often times, the cheater/shady guy will go farther/get richer because he/she doesnt play by the same rules as you and therefore the game is stilted in his advantage. Sonata123, i dont like to think of myself as a loser but i guess there are haters everywhere. Again, i am smart enough to get straight A´s without cheating, but for me, i would rather be doing something else. And since i am doing something else with the time saved via cheating, that cant really be counted as being lazy. That would be like saying you didnt go to the weightroom this week, instead you were studying for a test, your lazy and dont show commitment. Wrong, i am not lazy and do show commitment, just to different things.
Really good thread and hope it continues with other opinions as well</p>
<p>You ignorant kids need to read 'Winners Never Cheat' by Jon M. Huntsman.</p>
<p>WhartonWannabe...thank you for addressing, to me, the most important part about this thread.</p>
<p>In my sophomore history class, my teacher gave ridiculous tests which did not reflect the reading or his lectures. The teacher also let students self-grade (bad move). Due to the difficulty of the tests, the entire class decided to cheat, except for me. When I said something to my history teacher, he did not believe me. I took my case to the head of history and he said he was sure my history teacher was right, and nobody was cheating. I was in the class, and I knew that I was the only one who had earned my grade. I killed myself all year to get a mediocre grade while other students cheated to get As. If these kids had not cheated, there would have been a curve; however, the majority of the class ruined it for the few hard-working and strictly moral students.</p>
<p>If you don't have commitment to school, why do you deserve the rewards that are supposed to be given to those who actually do the work for school?</p>
<p>im not sure if i could be called ignorant. i fully understand all sides of the argument and have presented my case accordingly. Maybe you are a bit bitter towards kids who have cheated and got better grades than you. I can understand that completely and would be upset just like you. Like taking steriods in sports, I would be insulted if someone got more playing time than me due to steriod use. But i also understand why they would do it, because they NEED to be the best, to achieve the greatest heights. I think the same applies for cheating, and how you prioritize classwork.</p>
<p>Almost forget to add-I am sorry if i have offended anyone due to my views and actions. It is a choice i make and understand your anger/views.</p>
<p>alexzeig456, you are the most ignorant kid. Do you think I don't want to be valedictorian? Do you think I don't want to get into the best universities in the world? You fail to understand that when you cheat, you harm others, even if you don't think so. Those prestigious ranks of 'valedictorian' and 'salutatorian' are no longer what I expected them to be. I graduated 5th of my class in middle school being the only one who never cheated and worked honestly. The projected valedictorian and salutatorian of my high school are both guilty of cheating. Why do they deserve those "prestigious" titles over me?</p>
<p>Regardless of whether you think they deserve them, they will get them.</p>
<p>Bingo WhartonWannabe
this is exactly the point i wanted to make. The fact is they dont deserve the titles any more then you, in fact, you deserve it more then they do for not cheating, I agree with you on this. But where we differ is that i am willing to do what it takes to suceed, at least with school, where you arent willing to change your moral compass. You cant win this because the whole game is stilted in their favor. Again, i am sorry if i have offended you in any way, shape, or form; but i will do what it takes to get where i want to be, even if it means a guilty conscious.</p>
<p>Cheating is not only ethically wrong, but it seems like a hell of a lot more effort than just studying. I know a lot of people who cheat and watching them make cheat sheets and figure our creative ways to hide them looks freaking exhausting.</p>
<p>But in all honesty the problem, like many said before, is parents putting pressure on kids to get perfect grades. It's all about "getting the A." All the stuff about "I don't need this class because it doesn't pertain to what I want to do in life" is bull****. Is there no desire to be an a well rounded and educated person? I'm definately not into the sciences and I struggle in physics class, but I get satisfaction from challenging myself at least at little bit.</p>
<p>With the exception of a few, every single one of my friends cheat and when I try to say something about it they make it look like I don't get it because I'm smart enough to do it without cheating. I feel like cheating is truly one of the lowest things a person can do. Think about the power of intelligence and knowledge which in some people is simply incredible. It is spitting in their faces by making an illegal cheat sheet or looking at their tests. I have honestly in history (where my teacher(who is the best I've ever had and I have more respect for than any teacher I've ever had) emphasizes trust and honor more than any environment I've ever been taught in) been taking a quiz (ours are all oral) not known an answer, did my best to put a feasible one down, then looked at another persons paper and immediately known that they had the right answer and not changed mine. I don't say this because I'm holier than thou, I say it because they are either 100% A. more intelligent or B. more diligent, studious and hardworking than me, and to reap what they have sown (brainpower or work ethic) is unexpressably pathetic and disgusting to me.</p>
<p>asfh09, elianathegreat, claire, hawgreenstein, and wharton wannabe: it is heartening to read your posts...I hope you guys are the future...</p>
<p>The point about harming others is kind of what I meant about making the community off balance...all of our actions affect others, even if we don't mean them to...</p>
<p>I drive into the city a few times a week, and there is a long curved ramp going down a hill, just before you get to the city center. This ramp branches at the bottom of the hill, and most cars are going to the left, at the end of the ramp. This means that there is a long line of cars waiting to bear left, and a relatively empty right lane on the ramp.</p>
<p>Most drivers wait patiently in line, on the left. But there are always a few who zoom down the right side, then butt their way in to the left lane, just before the fork.</p>
<p>I think about this a lot, and it relates to this cheating discussion.</p>
<p>Why is it that most drivers are willing to line up, way at the top of the ramp/hill, and stay out of that empty right lane? On the plus side, that is a lot of people who are courteous and observant of a sort of group ethic for driving.</p>
<p>And what about the cheaters, the ones who zoom down past all those stupid, plodding, courteous people who are waiting in a long line, when the other lane is empty?! Do they see anything wrong with what they are doing? Is there anything wrong with what they are doing? They certainly do not feel badly...</p>
<p>When they do try to butt in, it causes an even longer wait for those other patient, waiting cars. Sometimes, I get mad and don't let them in! That's the anger of the non-cheater against the cheater, who thinks he is minding his own business but is affecting others. </p>
<p>Metaphorically, what if everyone behaved like that. The traffic would be chaos.</p>
<p>I guess the real reason for some of the values in a society is to preserve some kind of order. Cheating creates disorder, I guess, if you think about it. Then again, disorder seems to create cheating, which is why I might seem sympathetic to people who do it.</p>
<p>To asfh09, it is hard to say why you and others do not cheat under any circumstances, while many seemingly "good" kids cheat whenever they can. I'm sorry to sound like I was totally blaming it on society, which leaves people like you (and some others) out of the argument entirely. </p>
<p>Maybe some people are more evolved than others, who knows. Maybe you have great parents, or have some goal that is satisfying and doesn't involve "winning."</p>
<p>One girl I know was the only kid who did not cheat in a physics class, and her grades were the worst. Noone in the school honored this, even though her parents talked with the principal. She was waitlisted at a school she wanted to go to, and my daughter was going to call admissions for her and tell them the story. It ended up not being necessary. The girl went elsewhere. The kids who cheated got into much better schools.</p>
<p>I will say this in "defense" of "cheating". Frankly, for an intelligent student, a lot of assignments are a waste of time (which is actually my biggest problem with highschool, its seeming lack of the ability to realize it is supposed to teach concepts until it is understood, not make someone work on something they know how to do). For them to copy something that is not an assessment of their mastery of the content, but rather something that is used to ATTAIN the mastery of the content(which they already have) does not seem the slightest bit heinous to me. Since in this case they are not exploiting the brainpower of others or, upon the testing of their competence in the subject, exploiting the hardwork of others(and actually are in fact putting themselves at a disadvantage) it does not seem necessarily dishonorable to me. Granted, it is lazy and being ungrateful for your gifts, but you are not exploiting brainpower or work to aid yourself in something that you would otherwise, for lack of the two aforementioned tools of intellect, not be able to attain.</p>
<p>Maybe the kids are being influenced by their parents? I have get paid to write papers for a relative in community college. I admit it's wrong, but what can I do their family. Sadly I stole from a store too, it was a bad situation and I was hungry.I also help a lot of people cheat. I sort of blame it on the teachers for putting me in a lose-lose situation. That's what happens when your an inner city smart kid, help others cheat or get your ass whooped. I'll tell you what as soon as I get to college it's going to be 99.9% honesty.</p>
<p>I don't see why people repeat how cheaters will eventually be caught, or how it will catch up to them. Sometimes, it does. Much more often, it does not!</p>
<p>Thus, the cheaters, simply put, end up winning. They get to be valedictorian, salutatorian, get into the best schools, take away your scholarships, get the internships, and get the good job offers with the better salaries. They end up with material benefit over the non -cheaters and with a clean conscience. The non-cheaters get only the clean conscience.</p>
<p>Honestly, who deserves what has no relevance for anything. The people who can get something will. If we are talking about money or power, these people are usually the unethical ones. Some (Ken Lay) get caught, plenty of others (see: Richard Fuld, other Wall Street Execs, etc.) walk away with tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. In politics it's even worse, as mentioned--I think the last president who was at all a decent man was Carter, and he was a horrible politician because of it (I certainly would not vote for him again). Maybe Obama will reverse the trend of politics becoming more and more dirty (compared to Bush's reign and the 2004/2008 campaigns, Clinton looks downright honest), but I wouldn't get my hopes up for it.</p>
<p>In short, the cheaters have won. Everything.</p>
<p>How are kids not supposed to cheat when the world they grow up in does? We see plenty of people get caught (see Barry Bonds, ENRON), but consciously or unconsciously we know that the ones who we see caught are just the tip of the iceberg. Kids will do their best to reflect society unless those they are close to put a BIIIIIG effort into emphasizing the value of honesty.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Just want to clarify that I am in fact very upset about the cheating I hear about. I do not think it is okay. But the answer does not lie in superficial judgements of the cheaters. It is just very complicated.</p>
<p>I was thinking about how, in the late 1950's, we kids would watch Romper room and were told to drink milk when they showed a portrait of Eisenhower, accompanied by Hail to the Chief. I think we even saluted him, at home, when the tv told us to! That was not an era when most of us would consider cheating. There was respect for authority and elders, however misguided.</p>
<p>Since then, we have had assassinations (MLK, JFK, RFK), Vietnam (riots and police brutality); a long string of presidential lying (Watergate, Iran-Contra, Monica Lewinsky, and Iraq); white collar crime; torture of prisoners by the US, cheating scandals w/public employees; a tv/media culture that is not exactly Beaver Cleaver land; etc. etc. Idealism is long gone. Education is about jobs and money, not the ivory tower (pros and cons to this). Most religion does not assure us of our reward in heaven anymore. All this stuff affects our kids, even if they were born in the 1980's or 1990's.</p>
<p>I think the answer is sort of existential: people should do the right thing so that their lives remain centered, and so that the life of the community is also centered, sort of cosmically speaking. But try convincing a teenager of that, if the environments they are in, especially the schools, are so off center to begin with!</p>
<p>I won't write any more long posts. Sorry mine are so long. I have been thinking about this for a long time, and it was interesting to read all the posts when the topic came up on CC.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Long posts should be the least of anyone's concern, especially on a forum about College.</p>
<p>You make an interesting point with the 1950s. You are completely right. People were more of the same, and a homogeneous society was underway. But, is that how we want to live? Be the clone of the person next to us? When they drink their milk, should we drink ours, too? </p>
<p>Are children meant to be seen and not heard? Do we not question authority? Do we not take a second glance at what is going on and question it? Or do we shut up, and just let things go because the person in charge is an elder, or perhaps even 'wiser'. Whatever that may be.</p>
<p>I'm sorry - But, when I see an adult. I look them eye to eye. I don't look up them. I don't treat them any differently. I expect the same respect back. My point is just as valid, and worthy as theirs. No one is inferior. </p>
<p>I am not going to drink fat, disgusting milk because the guy on TV told me to do so. I am not going to help my country in a time a war - I could not care less. Hell, I won't even say the pledge to the flag. </p>
<p>Nothing is wrong with society. Absolutely nothing. I am an example of that. A independent, free-thinker. I fail to see how a homogeneous, quiet society would be better for everyone. Sure - There would probably be a lot less jealousy in the world, there would be less crime, no more this, no more that - But, what the hell. Without these events, we would have nothing to look back on and build ourselves as a society. </p>
<p>No more boom, boom, boom. Let's make it boom, boom, bang.</p>
<p>-x-</p>
<p>Ultimately, we should be the ones who decide if we want to cheat. There will always be the people who claim they are honest, super moral, and everything - But, then there will be your cheating, lying scum who gets ahead in life. So, it's up to you, everyone - It's your decision. Can you settle on less to ensure that your morals are in line and that you are, deep down, a good person? Or can you misplace your moral compass here and there, take a few shortcuts, and end up ahead of everyone? I'm all for the latter. I'm not going to sit here and bawww that I am a honest being that deserves to be top 10. If someone is willing to cheat on every test, copy every homework assignment - By all means, they are obviously more dedicated than I am and deserve that Harvard scholarship.</p>
<p>Monoclide, I think you missed my point about the 50's. I am not nostalgic at all for that period. I went through the turmoil of the 60's, and, frankly, rather than cheat to get ahead, I didn't go to college at all. I worked in Appalachia, lived in Vt., and worked for years with the homeless: the flip side of the immorality of winners, is the morality of "losers", since some of the most honorable people I have ever met, live on the street.</p>
<p>Anyway, I was trying to trace the evolution of values from the 50's to the present. You're young, and don't really understand what I was saying about the milk and the president. Or maybe I wasn't clear. I guess the point is, that when there is order to the world, it is often repressive. At that time, people didn't cheat because it wouldn't really occur to them.</p>
<p>It is much harder to be ethical these days. There is more freedom. So things are a little messy. (Messy is good compared to repression) I tried to trace how that happened. I mentioned lying presidents and white collar crime and corrupt schools, all of which several people have written about.</p>
<p>I still feel that many people who say they do cheat, have their own system of values to which they are adhering. Their behavior makes sense to them, ethically, in a way they can explain. They apply good values to other areas of their life, too, which proves the point. Often, cheating in a bad and unsupportive school does not translate into other arenas.</p>
<p>At the same time, I have to say that I truly admire those who do not cheat, and forego whatever gain that might bring them. To resist cheating in 2008 is so much more meaningful than it was in 1955. It says that a person can live in a society that is confused and confusing, and still have that clarity and integrity.</p>
<p>You convey your set of values very well. You are a bit confrontative about it, which leads me to believe you are not quite as comfortable with what you are saying, as you would like us to believe. That is a good thing.</p>