Life at the most insecure Ivy

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
21

@Penn95 said: “An educated person who is able to name ivies past Harvard, Yale, (Princeton), is also knowledgeable enough to know Penn is an ivy and Penn State is a different school.”

You say this so definitively - as if it were fact - but how the heck do you know this?

I’ll provide a counter point - me. I went to a good high school and a good college (not in the northeast or west). I consider myself fairly well educated. It wasn’t until LATE in my college career that I realized UPenn was in the ivy league (when I was researching post college options).

For most of my college career, if asked to name ivy schools, I would’ve said HYP, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Georgetown… is Hopkins in there? I’d basically just start naming colleges on the east coast I thought were prestigious. I’m sure there are lots of people who feel the same way. In that study, 40% of people named Harvard as an ivy, and only 1.5% of people said the same about Penn. I wouldn’t be surprised if Stanford, Georgetown, Columbia, Brown, Cornell, etc got more than 1.5%. Maybe some of the others only got 15% or 10%, but I doubt, as you would assert based on your reasoning, that Columbia, Cornell, etc were all at 1.5% too. And that would show that it’s not simply HYP and all the rest - there may be differences of brand awareness between, say, UPenn and Columbia.

You may be eager to clump upenn in with the other non HYP ivies, but there also could be differences you’re not seeing - ESPECIALLY outside the mid Atlantic or pockets of the west coast.

Finally, I see a bunch of opinions demonstrating negativity about the penn name - from petitions to change the name to an alum (Trump) never using the name.

To me, the other non-HYP ivies have one problem - people might not know they exist.

UPenn has two problems - people might not know it exists, AND there is a big, super well known public university with a similar name.

What would you rather have for brand awareness - one problem, or two?

22

@Penn95 oops meant to say that we confuse Penn State with Penn (UPenn). And CA is huge so yes I understand that the elite prep schools know and distinguish the Ivies but that is a very small population. I did say the majority of CA kids are thinking about their college choices within our state and not other regions like the Northeast.

Trust me, Penn/UPenn has a brand recognition/confusion problem. Penn State doesn’t (Sandusky took care of that unfortunately). And we’re talking about the general public. It doesn’t take away from UPenn’s good qualities but the perception is there nonetheless.

23

@Penn95 I’m sorry but I just have to point out that the subject of his thread is about Ivy insecurity and you arguing the point that only ‘sophisticated’ people would know the difference between Penn State and UPenn/Penn just makes me chuckle.

Hey, my son goes to Cornell and people poke fun of that school like @blevine pointed out. It’s true and hilarious! However when my son did his internship last summer (it wasn’t on the east coast) the employees there were impressed with his school name, and they knew it was an Ivy (gasp). And I would not describe them as ‘sophisticated’ just down to earth people.

24

School confusion is a regional “thing” and is not limited to Penn/Penn State. I have a masters degree from Columbia University (in NY) but here in Chicago, people often assume I am referring to our local Columbia College, which is an arts school. That is, when people are interested in my educational background, which most of the time, they are not.

25

@CALSmom - you raise good points, and speak to broader swaths of the population, outside of some areas in the west and northeast.

@Bubblewrap666 - yes, Columbia could be confused for Columbia College Chicago, and Cornell could be confused for Cornell College of Iowa but… seriously? This is somewhat regional, but what do you think has more brand recognition nationwide? Penn State, or Columbia College Chicago and Cornell College Iowa?

Penn State is literally one of the largest public schools in the nation, with one of the largest alumni bases in the nation, and is often in the national news for sports (football), AND was often on the front pages of newspapers for a period of months because of Sandusky.

Sure, regional differences can play into it, but comparing UPenn/Penn State confusion with Columbia/Columbia College Chicago confusion is NOT a like to like comparison.

From a perspective of brand recognition, the Penn-Penn State thing is a problem, in a way that none of the other ivies face to the same extent (if much at all).

26

@Cue7 of course it’s not a like to like comparison, but my point is that, depending on where you are, and what you do, there is certain to be someone confused. On the other hand, people who need to know the difference between two schools (whether it’s Penn/Penn State, or the two Columbias or the two Cornells) most certainly do. Neither the applicant pool of Penn nor its reputation among employers, grad schools etc hardly seems to have suffered because there are those who confuse it with the state school.

27

C’mon, folks. It’s a link to a BLOG-gy article, something most of us are not supposed to do.

Where’s *our * depth if we let this article rile us? Why argue this ad infinitum, who think this or mistakes that? It onky perpetuates the inanity.

Face it: Penn’s a great school. So are Brown, Dartmouth, Columbia.

I mind this superficial notion only 3 Ivies are good, usually from folks who probably can’t even articulate why, lol, not counting some media source ranking.

Breathe, friends.

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@lookingforward Wow, and not Cornell ? I am very insulted by your post :wink:

@Bubblewrap666 I am sure when in Iowa Cornell grads have the same problem as Columbia and UP
https://www.cornellcollege.edu/

And don’t worry about Harvard grads…they wont be mistaken for Haverford :wink:

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@Bubblewrap666 - of course, somewhere out there people confuse Harvard for Haverford. It can happen for a lot of schools, but the question from a brand perspective is to what extent does this happen? It’s clearly worst for upenn, because penn state has such huge recognition.

And of course, this doesn’t impact exit options. People know upenn, just like they know uchicago or williams or whatever.

Outcomes and quality of education are different than having dominant brand awareness. From what I see, the non-HYP ivies are not similarly situated. Heck, upenn is the only one I know that needs to have a website dedicated to explaining they are not penn state. This must be up for a reason.

https://www.upenn.edu/about/faq

I mean… come on - brown doesn’t have a faq to demonstrate it’s not affiliated with the university of Rhode island…

30

Brutal

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Omg ^^ :open_mouth:
That’s sad. Whoever is in charge of their brand marketing needs to revamp the image of Penn. That’s not the right way to portray who they are as a school.

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@blevine “Wow, and not Cornell ? I am very insulted by your post…” My humble apologies.

Not sure why my post ended there. I wrote that I’d carefully counted all…seven. Oops. Nope. No offense to Cornell. My mom’s a grad, I grew up with the carnelian.

It does show we can all get confused, at times.

33

Part of the problem is the Penn/U Penn thing. Some people from outside the area assume the two names refer to different school.

34

This article is just stupid.

First, this is just a puff piece to get people’s attention. The erroneous inference that Penn students mention “Ivy League” because they are insecure is unsubstantiated.

Second, it isn’t correct. Most Penn students spend zero time feeling insecure that they only got into Penn and wishing they were at a different Ivy. That would be idiotic.

Third, the reason some of them mention “Ivy League” when asked to describe Penn is that they are trained, through long experience, to know they need to explain to people that it is neither Penn State nor a public flagship. That does not mean that students are insecure. It means that they are used to having to explain it to people who don’t know.

Fourth, Penn graduates earn higher salaries than graduates of every Ivy except Harvard so why would they be insecure?

Fifth, in my experience, Penn students and alums are generally very comfortable in their own skin. In fact, Penn students often to go out of their way to avoid discussing their accomplishments and take a very “show don’t tell” approach to their abilities. Penn culture has a significant social component, and that culture actively discourages bragging. That is the opposite of insecure.

35

When I read these discussions, about people not knowing that Penn State is not Penn, or HPY being way better than the rest of the universe, or that nobody knows what UChicago is, the only thing that comes to my mind is… Really?
How important is the opinion of someone who does not know that information? In my opinion that is totally irrelevant, because they are just…opinions.
UPenn is an amazing university, and one of my friends who graduated from there has had the most unbelievable life anyone could have. She is fifty and has lived in Frankfurt, Amsterdam, and Paris. She has an incredible non-profit company in Dakar that helps its community and has changed the lives of its people in an unprecedented way. She always says that her experience in UPenn changed her life. All top universities give opportunities to grow and learn, but only the individuals can choose to take advantage of them or not. All the time I read that HPY-accepted students are so amazing and unique and are so above the rest, and that is so untrue. In my experience being an active parent for many years in my kids’ school, one of the best private prep schools in the country, I can tell that kids accepted into Cornell, UChicago, Duke, UPenn, and others considered “the second tier” are more likely to be, in my opinion, successful adults later on. All of them are not only brilliant but have attractive personalities, more interesting preferences and are definitely more down to earth. The opinions that one reads here that try to undermine the quality of any other school that is not HPY, are just toxic and unreal. Anyone know how many graduates from those schools end up doing absolutely nothing with their lives? Many…

36

@Much2learn - I have to say I’m confused. In comparison to most college newspaper articles, the author here - as we’d expect of a Penn student - actually takes care to substantiate her claims!

In fact, she cites to a study that points to Penn students mentioning “ivy league” at a MUCH higher rate than their Harvard counterparts. Here’s a link to the study, which was undertaken by UPenn psychologists:

http://sydneyscott.nfshost.com/pubs/Psychological%20Science-2014-Rozin-1955-9.pdf

The scholars actually take some time to analyze WHY Penn students do this more than Harvard students… and this relates to insecurity.

Further, while the author didn’t cite this, a national puIblication also noted UPenn as the “most insecure” ivy:

https://newrepublic.com/article/120185/inside-americas-number-1-party-school-university-pennsylvania

Moreover, there are multiple articles that discuss initiatives to change the University’s name, a University FAQ (created by the university communications’ team) that distinguishes UPenn from Penn State, etc. etc.

So, I’m not sure what you mean by unsubstantiated. The Penn - Penn State confusion is understandable - especially because Penn State is so widely recognized.

I just haven’t seen the same articles/op-eds about, say, Brown, Dartmouth, etc. Maybe people at Brown are annoyed that their school is confused with some other school, and the University has a FAQ answer about this. Or maybe Brown students write op-eds about the insecurity on campus.

But I’m not seeing it. While I’m sure it’s THERE, all these articles/info seem to point to it being more pronounced at Penn. It may in fact be a MINORITY of students, @Much2learn - but how are we to know that “most Penn students spend zero time wishing they’d gone to another ivy”?

You can keep thinking it’s stupid, but the fact of the matter is these articles keep popping up about UPenn…

37

@cue7 You always make me laugh.

You know this is BS and you are prodding me, but I will play along for now.

First, I see zero evidence that Penn students mentioning Ivy League more is caused by insecurity. None. The author foolishly assumes. I propose that Penn students know the Penn brand recognition is not very good so they mention it more when asked to describe the school.

Second, the assertion that Penn is a “marginal ivy” is simply false. What is marginal about Penn?
Compare universities across 5 of their most important programs: undergrad, medical school, law school, graduate engineering, and graduate business. How many universities in the country are ranked in the top 20 in each of those 5 major programs? Only 4: Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, and Penn. That is it. Nothing is marginal.

“but how are we to know that “most Penn students spend zero time wishing they’d gone to another ivy”?”
The burden is on you to show that they are. You are making he insecure claim. I am saying that Penn students mentioning Ivy League more than Harvard students only proves one thing: Penn students mention Ivy League more than Harvard students. It does not establish a cause at all, the assumed cause is unsubstantiated speculation.

I could assert that after asking students at all universities to describe their school, that UChicago students were the most likely to describe their school as “Where fun goes to die.” I could then speculate that it, therefore, must be the least fun school in the nation. However, that logical leap would be pure speculation, and it would undoubtedly be wrong. The same is true here.

I could also assert that people claiming Penn students are insecure proves that those people are insecure. It may be true, or not. The facts are it is another unsubstantiated logical leap that falsely presumes only one possible cause. It would require an in-depth analysis that establishes all possible causes and then allocates portions of the results to each in an objective and testable way. They did not do that.

Lol

38

@Much2learn - the point of the academic study was to show that certain groups mention affiliation with prestigious organizations as a way of asserting - or striving for - status (e.g. to cover up insecurity). The authors of the study note that this came up with Penn students mentioning “ivy league” more than Harvard students, or, tellingly, for osteopaths and dentists to mention they are doctors more than MDs.

That was a major point of the study - to show which groups try to affiliate with a certain status/org more quickly to “prove” something.

Further, the point here is to describe student culture - not prove definitively what the hierarchy is from most secure to most insecure. When you assert that UChicago students may be more likely to describe their school as “where fun goes to die,” I would NOT use that info to determine the school is the “least fun in the nation.” Rather, I’d use it as a data point for consideration - it looks like some students view UChicago social life really negatively, in a way I can’t seem to find to describe Penn, Yale, Stanford, etc.

Similarly, if I see a bunch of articles, an academic study, and a University-produced website describing Penn-Penn State confusion and doubt about the school’s strength of brand, I would NOT automatically think that insecurity is rampant and the school has huge brand issues. Rather, I’d use the info as a data point that describes one issue at the school that doesn’t seem to be as commonplace at other peers.

I worry that your approach, and others, like @Penn95 - is to simply disregard all this. To say it’s “stupid,” or to shrug off the studies and the articles from national publications. I think that’s counterproductive. I wouldn’t shrug off the “where fun comes to die” mantra for Chicago, as it comes up in so many ways, and deserves consideration/discussion. Similarly, there’s lots of stuff on UPenn insecurity - it serves no purpose to dismiss it so summarily. This author obviously feels it, authors of the other articles obviously feel it, and the University took care to explain a distinction from Penn and Penn State - so the summary dismissal seems ill-advised.

That’s all.

39

It’s a lame study, lol. I even wondered if it was an undergrad test project, but the 2ndary researchers are past UG. Two, btw, are primarily interested in eating psych issues.

They posit that mentioning X or not (university, Ivy, or international) represents insecurity or security. But without any reference back to studies showing this is a valid presumption, in the first place.

I see nothing on how they chose student participants, though they use a clause that suggests these were chosen for some sensitivity to status. Again, how rational was that aspect versus subjective or another offhand, “Let’s assume…”

Not good science. Another article about the study discusses psychology’s sensitivity to being labelled humanities, how often psych folks refer to “science” in describing their work. See any irony? Pot calling the kettle black?

Just because something is studied doesn’t make it a legit work.

40

@Cue7 “The point of the academic study was to show that certain groups mention affiliation with prestigious organizations as a way of asserting - or striving for - status”

I understand that. The epic fail is to think that is the only reason they mention the prestigious organization.

For example, if someone asked me describe UChicago and Harvard, I would be more likely to describe UChicago with
“Top national university”, or “Nobel prize-winning research.” Does that mean I am insecure about UChicago? No. I am not even affiliated with it. It just means that I am adjusting my answers based on my assumptions about what the audience is likely to know and not know.

I think every Joe sixpack knows Harvard, but most will not recognize UChicago, so I might begin a UChicago description with “Top National University” and “Nobel Prize winning research”, which is analagous to “Ivy League” in the Penn example, in an attempt to provide reference points to the audience that I don’t think they need in Harvard’s case.

What the authors of this study have actually discovered:

  1. Harvard has better public brand recognition than Penn. (Glad someone spent money to discover that!)
    2, The students of each school adjust their responses based on their experience of what will be informative to other people.