Little ivies???

College Search & Selection
61

<p>Moneydad, I am not sure what to make of your statement. ILR's grduating class rank and mean SAT are as high as the Cornell's overall student body. </p>

<p>Graduating among the top 10% of High School class:
Cornell: 87%
ILR: 85%</p>

<p>SAT Verbal score over 600:
Cornell: 85%
ILR: 95%</p>

<p>SAT Math score over 600:
Cornell: 91%
ILR: 91%</p>

<p>SAT Verbal score over 700:
Cornell: 37%
ILR: 45%</p>

<p>SAT Math score over 700:
Cornell: 58%
ILR: 43%</p>

<p><a href="http://education.yahoo.com/college/facts/5976.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://education.yahoo.com/college/facts/5976.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/admissions/downloads/ProfileClass2008.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/admissions/downloads/ProfileClass2008.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I think it is pretty clear that Cornell's ILR students are a pretty solid bunch.</p>

<p>Anyway Monydad, I never claimed to be an expert on Cornell. Like I said, I usually avoid giving specific advice about Cornell. But I did live in Ithaca and study at Cornell for 2 years, and that does give me insight on the university. </p>

<p>By the way, Monydad, when were you at the ILR school? Did you know professors Larry Williams and Bob Stern?</p>

62

<p>1) the "handle" is monydad, not "moneydad". It does mean something, but not coin-related. I was sufficiently obtuse to not even realize the connection to "money"until someone else made a comment about it.</p>

<p>2) I did not attend the ILR school. I attended the arts College and the engineering college. I took courses in these two and the College of Agriculture. I lived in the dorms as an undergraduate and through this have first-hand familiarity with students from all the colleges at Cornell. Though hopefully I limit my comments here to what I know about. I was there for six years. Students from other colleges were in many of my classes as an undergrad, which also enhanced my exposure to them, aside from living among them. The same cannot be said for when I was in grad school.
All of this took place in the dark ages; we wrote our papers on papyrus. However I do talk to current students at local alumni functions.</p>

<p>3) If you want to present statistics that are actually relevant to my arguments, then post multi-year comparisons (5-10 would be nice) of SAT stats for specifically ILR vs. College of Arts &Sciences, if you have them. Otherwise this is noise.</p>

63

<p>CAL (college of agriculture and life sciences) graduate, took courses in arts, engineering, skipped the wine tasting...</p>

<p>I remember seeing stats that indicated similar SAT scores between some public and private schools at Cornell in the mid- 70s...and thinking why would anyone from New York pay more for the privates...I learned that for some majors they were the only options and that there were limitations on taking classes outside the college without getting some permission (always granted in my situtation) Now you can duel major between public and private colleges.</p>

<p>Other than clothes and an occassional car, I rarely could tell by the level of discussion who was in the public and who was in privates. I had opportunity to tutor students from at least four colleges including the arts and sometimes they helped me.</p>

<p>When you have a state with over 11 million people and you offer bargain rates at an Ivy School you get plenty of takers. One of my Aggie friends was interested in international finance, her father a banker found out what a deal the Ag Economics (undergraduate business major) was and encouraged her to go there.</p>

<p>Since the college boom spurred by the WWll GI Bill enhanced the quality of colleges across this country, being in or out of an Ivy has become less important...There are plenty of great schools out there....Hamilton, Colgate....if you like the rolling hills of upstate NY...and lots of others. I don't know about little ivies, but I do know there are a lot of great opportunities to study out there and "fit" matters.</p>

64

<p>Seems like I am not the only one who questions your partiality.</p>

<p>This is not to say that everything you state is in question nor that you are deliberately being misleading, only that certain claims you have made (are making) are being questioned / challenged.</p>

<p>That is a healthy thing. </p>

<p>Discussion and debate. That's what I thought was the purpose of this site.</p>

65

<p>Guys - y'all need to get a life. Your college days are over. You were all very happy with your choices. There is no reason to denigrate anyone else's choices. There are thousands of institutions of higher learning in this country at which students with intellectual curiosity and passion can be educated and inspired. Some are Ivies - some are LACs- some are public universities. Some are even community colleges, believe it or not. A college education is about much more than a brand name. This discussion has taken on a rather unpleasant "mine is bigger than yours" junior-high-school tone (and why do I assume you are all male?).</p>

66

<p>pamavision. well said. </p>

<p>i fully agree with the view that a quality education is obtainable across a broad range of institutions across the nation - and that no single set of institutions holds some kind of monopoly in this regard.</p>

<p>And of course, there are few (if any) "right" answers to be found here. For any one individual looking across the broad spectrum of institutions there are many other considerations to ponder for that individual student (goals, finances, fit, geography, etc.) </p>

<p>However, in defense of my own postings, my rationale for debating with Alexandre is not "my college is better than your college" it is rather an attempt to counter certain aspects of Alexandre's claims / statements.</p>

<p>The way i see it, this website can be an invaluable resource for younger students, but the 'value added' is only as good as the information flowing through these threads.</p>

<p>I've said it before and i'll say it again, Alexandre is fully entitled to his own opinion, however, he is a moderator and i (and others) have pointed out instances where his opinions don't exactly seem entirely impartial. His views also tend to be very strong (IMO bordering on extreme at times) and so I feel I have a right (if not duty) to at least challenge some of these strong views.</p>

<p>There is always a flip side to any argument. I'm just doing my part to balance out some of this one-sidedness. Just like any good debate, once the arguments are said and done, its up to the audience to decide which bits and pieces they agree / disagree / like / dislike, etc. and hopefully they will be better informed for it.</p>

67

<p>BTW, my earlier comments about TA's teaching classes in lieu of professors at large research-oriented public U's:</p>

<p>Princeton Review
Teaching Assistants Teach Too Many Upper-Level Courses
"What percentage of upper-level courses is taught by teaching assistants?"</p>

<p>1 University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign<br>
2 University of Iowa<br>
3 University of Kansas<br>
4 Ohio State University - Columbus<br>
5 Purdue University-West Lafayette<br>
6 University of California-Riverside<br>
7 University of Tennessee - Knoxville<br>
8 Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey - New Brunswick<br>
9 University of Michigan-Ann Arbor<br>
10 Florida State University </p>

<p>Gee, look at all of those public U's on this list (though it should not come as any surprise) - and just for kicks let's acknowledge the 9th entry... some food for thought...</p>

<p>Again, I'm not saying one can't get a great education at a large research oriented public U, one certainly can, although I'd also say, "caveat emptor" as well.</p>

<p>The rest of the list:
(you might need to register first)</p>

<p><a href="http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/rankings/rankingDetails.asp?CategoryID=1&TopicID=11%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/rankings/rankingDetails.asp?CategoryID=1&TopicID=11&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

68

<p>Ivy_Grad and Alexandre -
I can't believe you guys - why don't you two start your own thread and argue away to your heart's content instead of hijacking someone else's thread. As I recall, the original question had nothing whatsoever to do with your opinions on Ivy League schools - are all Ivy grads as narcissitic and so persistently argumentative as your guys without taking others' boredom quotient into regard? Gees...</p>

69

<p>Crash - well said - this thread and its follow up discussion would certainly scare away a high school kid and probably his parents also. </p>

<p>Every one is entitled to their own opinion - this is a no-win argument/discussion - so give it a rest.</p>

70

<p>
[quote]
Ivy_Grad and Alexandre -
I can't believe you guys - why don't you two start your own thread and argue away to your heart's content instead of hijacking someone else's thread. As I recall, the original question had nothing whatsoever to do with your opinions on Ivy League schools - are all Ivy grads as narcissitic and so persistently argumentative as your guys without taking others' boredom quotient into regard? Gees...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Several comments:</p>

<p>1) I already lamented on the fact that this back and forth w/ Alexandre had effectively hijacked this thread, however,</p>

<p>2) It does take "two to tango"</p>

<p>3) Why is it that whenever there is an argument about the Ivies it is the person who sides with and / or comes to the defense of the Ivies, that person is automatically a "narcissistic arrogant SOB"? For example, why doesn't Alexandre get painted with the same charge for taking as firm of a stand defending his position / opinions? I mean, that's all I'm doing right? Just defending my position, right? </p>

<p>4) Then what seems to happen is everyone else chimes in and agrees with this one-sided charge "yeah, I agree what a jerk"</p>

<p>5) Um, am I the only one who is arguing here? I am just countering some very strong positions / opinions - is one not allowed to do that?</p>

<p>6) This is a thread. That means it starts at one place and ultimately deviates here and there depending upon the course of the ensuing posts and arguments and claims that are used to back-up / substantiate certain positions. For example, whenever Alexandre chimes in with a "Ivies are overrated" claim to substantiate a point (on any given thread - such as this one) - I will not just sit back and let that slide folks. </p>

<p>7) This inherent deviation of threads seems to be acceptable in most cases, as long as its not "pro-Ivy" in nature. If it happens to have this kind of slant and / or direction, then you can be sure that it gets highlighted and the culprits involved get chastised. Am I complaining? Not really. Does this seem fair? No. But that's not the point of me bringing these issues up. Just want people to (at a minimum) "call a spade a spade" and at least acknowledge how biased this forum really is - its quite "anti-Ivy" in nature backed up by an unofficial CC kangaroo court that waits to pounce on anyone "pro-Ivy".</p>

<p>8) So there you go. Alexandre is a level headed and stand-up fellow for standing firm and taking such a strong stance on his opinions and positions - but I - "the Ivy guy" - no, no, no - we'll have none of that from you - when I try to do my best to defend my own position, the default characterization (and assumed underlying motivation of my actions) will be that I am simply a person who is "narcissitic and persistently argumentative."</p>

71

<p>Now you BOTH need a slap off the side of the head - ya it takes 2 to tango - and your both tangoing - and this last post shows that the maturity level has descended to a kindergarten level - grow up and respect your differences and take this argument elsewhere - you are both guilty of high-jacking this thread.</p>

72

<p>Back to the original question? Back to the original college? </p>

<p>The College of William and Mary, easy.</p>

73

<p>To respond to the original post:</p>

<p>I would say it depends. Notwithstanding that the Ivy League encompasses eight schools of varying (though always high) quality, when people say 'Ivy League' I think Harvard, Princeton, Yale, and I suspect most people do as well - so "little ivy" means "the best of the best". In that sense Amherst, Swarthmore, and Williams are the only schools that could qualify as "little ivies". MIT and Stanford are at the HPY level as well, but they're too big to be "little ivies".</p>

<p>If you just take 'Ivy League' to signify 'excellent', there are lots of other schools that could qualify as "little ivies" that posters have mentioned.</p>

<p>I'm sure someone will want to take issue with whether Amherst, Swarthmore, and Williams are really at the HPY level, and I don't care; in any case they're the only liberal arts colleges that can even compete. You can find well-informed people who will tell you Swarthmore is better than Harvard; you won't find too many liberal arts colleges anyone will say that about.</p>

74

<p>As the originator of this thread,thank you to those of you that have pointed out the alleged hijacking! Unfortunately, the debate that ensued doesn't show the ivy league spirit in the best light. I have been a lurker for a long time, and have finally gotten the courage to post. This forum is so helpful to parents and students seeking guidance through this harrowing process. The original question was meerly asking if there still is something called little ivy status and if so which schools qualified. The debate over whether ivy vs. university is so over worked on this board. The only other topic that seems to consume debate is drinking at college. BUMP!</p>

75

<p>Well, for what's it's worth, Princeton Review - through addition of their selectivity, academic quality, campus life, and financial aid/scholarship resources - identifies 5 colleges that are better for undergraduate education than ALL of the Ivies (and Stanford). They are: Carleton, Amherst, Smith, Pomona, and Haverford.</p>

<p>And ranked solely on academic quality, one gets pretty much the same result.</p>

<p>Does it matter, though? You only get to attend one of them, and there's a lot more to an education than the hollowness at the core of the ranking nonsense. Does anyone really care whether an Audi is better than a BMW?</p>

<p>(Where I live, "Ivy" is considered a weed, and the city has an entire program to eradicate it. I don't think they make a distinction between "big" and "little" ;))</p>

76

<p>I agree with mini - except that as an alumnus I know that Swarthmore CLEARLY outstrips all the others and Amherst et al are just cheap knockoffs ;) - they're all excellent schools, and the choice of which to attend should be made on the basis of considerations other than "rankings". Frankly, the same is true of the Ivies unless you're considering Harvard, which has a brand name FAR stronger than that of any other college in the country.</p>