LMU vs. Santa Clara vs. Chapman for Theatre

College Majors Musical Theater Major
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<p>I know this is the MUSICAL theatre board, but the most active theatre discussion happens here and we could use your advice (please)...</p>

<p>My daughter wants to attend a smallish liberal arts college in California, and seek a B.A. in theatre. She loves to act, but also wants training in directing and stage management. She hopes for a career in the theatre industry, but does not yet know in which capacity.</p>

<p>She visited some schools back East last year and has been accepted to Drew and Ithaca, but is now really leaning towards staying in California. She has been accepted to LMU, and is waiting for responses from Santa Clara and Chapman.</p>

<p>Any opinions?? Thanks.</p>

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<p>I don't know much about the theater programs at any of these schools. I do know that LMU and Chapman have up and coming film schools. The industry is in Los Angeles. To take advantage of internships (during the school year) or auditions you really have to be in Los Angeles. In addition, to develop a reel to show agents if you go to a school with a film department you have an in there for casting.</p>

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<p>My D has friends at both LMU and Chapman. All her drama freinds chose Chapman over LMU, although I recall seeing LUM's website and remember them featuring several recent grads, with resumes and so forth. I would choose the L.A area schools over the Bay Area, because of the proximity to Los Angeles and the industry.
On another note, I heard something about Chapman starting an MT program in the near future. Anybody know anything about that?</p>

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<p>It's the academic reputation that concerns me about Chapman. That really doesn't matter in some cases (auditioning actors), but in other cases it may matter. I'm assuming from your D's acceptances at Drew and Ithaca that academics are a strength for her. </p>

<p>My opinion would be Drew. It's certainly not in California, but it's a well-rated LAC that doesn't have a BFA program. As mentioned elsewhere, the opportunities are greater for BA students when there is no BFA or graduate program in residence. Drew is also oh-so-close to NYC. We visited the campus this summer en route to Broadway. </p>

<p>My S also wanted a BA program in a small LAC setting. He didn't find any schools in California that interested him. He's off to the midwest or the east.</p>

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<p>Chapman does not have a musical theatre program. They do have a good drama department and an excellent music department. Freshmen might have the opportunity to perform there. Some schools don't offer that.</p>

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<p>Elliottsmom, I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding (entirely possible, it's been a long week!) your point about the academic reputation of those schools, but I do know that the son of a friend also had those three, among several others, on his list of acceptances a couple of years ago. If I'm not mistaken, Chapman had a significantly lower acceptance rate than either Drew or Ithaca.</p>

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<p>In terms of selectivity between Chapman, Ithaca and Drew for their BA programs.....the acceptance rate to Chapman is the lowest at 58%, Ithaca next at 67% and Drew at 70%. Further, for theater, Chapman's BA is BY AUDITION. Ithaca's BA is not but they do have a BFA and of course that is HIGHLY selective (single digit admit rate). But comparing apples to apples for the BA....Chapman is the most selective of the three in terms of admit rate and also Chapman's BA in Theater Performance is BY AUDITION. In fact, I have a client who has happily been admitted there this year with a large scholarship. At Chapman, you have the option after the second or third year of auditioning into the BFA track (can't enter that as a freshman). It is not a MT program. However, they offer some courses in MT and a significant amt. of dance. Every fall, they put on a Broadway MT Revue. An Ithaca BA student will be "competing" with the BFA candidates. Drew is a fine BA LAC option and I have had students apply there as a safety school who are trying for BFA programs. It is close to New York. They offer a London semester and a NYC semester, extensive productions, some musicals (last year did Urinetown). Drew is SAT Optional.</p>

<p>Santa Clara offers a BA Theater Arts, a Dance Minor, and an Interdisciplinary
Major/Minor in MT and has NO audition to get in. It is a great BA option for those seeking MT. They have a 61% admit rate. They put on musicals; this year has a show that is mostly a cabaret.</p>

<p>Chapman is a little more selective than the others, but not by a lot.</p>

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<p>To qualify my last line when I said Chapman is a little more selective than the others, I meant in terms of admit rate. It becomes even more selective, however, because an audition is required to be admitted for theater.</p>

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<p>Soozie- Have you heard anything on the grapevine about plans for an MT program at Chapman? One of my D's friends who is there for theatre said he heard it was in the works.</p>

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<p>AnotherMom, No I am not up on any information as to whether Chapman is planning a MT program other than YOUR mention of it :). Chapman is not a school that too many kids in the East tend to know about and I have had only one student apply (she is not from the East, however). As I said, I know you can minor in Dance there. When my client visited, she said that she met a student in Theater Performance who was minoring in dance and in voice. She observed student directed scenes and these happened to have all been from musicals. I also mentioned that they have a Broadway Musical Revue each fall. My client saw a dance performance at Chapman that she spoke very highly about. Clearly it is a straight theater program but there may be some opportunities to supplement with coursework related to MT, including dance and voice and some MT classes. It won't be like a program in MT per se. However, the same might be said for a place like Muhlenberg or Drew, BA programs that are not MT programs but have some MT opportunities and dance, etc. Chapman, however, does have the BFA option for the later years. Also, with the audition to get in, that is not the same as at Drew or Santa Clara. For those looking for BA options, Chapman or Santa Clara or Drew are worth a look. A strong average student could likely get in.</p>

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<p>So, between a BFA at College of Santa Fe or regular BAs at Drew and manhattanville, which would be best? I can't seem to find anything about CSF on cc..</p>

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<p>There is NO way to determine which is "Best" of those three options. Which is best is the one that most closely fits the criteria and preferences you have in a college experience and program. Doing a BFA in MT at Santa Fe is not going to be like doing a BA in MT at Manhattanville or like a straight theater BA at Drew. Very different programs. It all depends what YOU want to do as far as curriculum. Drew and Manhattanville are in entirely different locations than Santa Fe. There are numerous differences. </p>

<p>Brainstorm all the points about each school including its theater program (but beyond that as well) and your pros/cons and once you list all of these, it might pop out to you which list more closely resembles the criteria you want in a college for you. Few schools perfectly line up in every which way to what you want but often you can "give" in one area to get something else you want more about the college, etc. Lastly, if you haven't visited, it really will be important in helping you to make that final decision.</p>

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<p>Travelling..if you use the search tool in the upper right hand corner and type in the words Santa Fe you will find lots of discussion about CSF. I have bumped on main discussion about the school..and I know there is at least one CCer who has a child attending. You could try contacting her. Good luck! I know it is overwhelming. Another thing I recommend is to go back to the FAQ at the top of the main MT page, and read what Dr John wrote about the differences between BA programs and BFA.
I do have a D who is happily studying at a BA program. It is a great fit for her, but you really need to determine what school, and program fits your child best.</p>

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<p>Thanks everyone! Hard decision because it's apples and oranges.She loves the program at Santa fe but isnt wild about it physically which seems to matter to her-even though we have spent alot of time in Santa Fe and love it...Still waiting on 3 other bfas as well....</p>

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<p>To clarify my comment about academic reputation, I don't use the admissions selectivity as the only guage of reputation. To compare Drew and Chapman as an example. Though the selectivity (lower admission rate) is clearly Chapman, take a look at the U.S. News & World Report rankings. Chapman has a regional Masters rank of 11 while Drew is a national Liberal Arts rank of 66. Drew has a slightly higher SAT average spread. Chapman has only 44% of their students living on campus compared to 88% at Drew. </p>

<p>I live in S. Calif., so part of my comment on reputation has to do with how well regarded Chapman is in my area (a.k.a. "the buzz"). There really isn't much buzz with the exception of the film program. The school has done much outreach into adult education and have off-site evening degree programs. Certainly many schools have done this (including USC), but Chapman did it long ago and coupled with local advertising has created a sense that one gets an "easy degree" there. </p>

<p>I do fully admit that I do not know of the theatre program's reputation in theatre circles (since that isn't my playground). With a B.A. theatre program, my bias is that it would best serve the student to choose a school with a good/great academic reputation. My rationale is that such a student has either determined they have broad interests not served by a BFA program, or has auditioned for the BFA's but has not been selected. Thus they may not end up in a position to perform/direct/produce for a living upon graduation and may need to utilize their BA degree in other employment roles. Those other employment roles (sales, management, etc.) might be landed more readily with a degree from a more reputable school. I have several family members for example, who are in positions where they hire people and each of them have said that they get excited when they see applicants from xyz schools because their graduates have been consistently top-notch employees. </p>

<p>Finally, I couch these comments within the framework of my belief that a good education can be had just about anywhere. I am a community college, then a state college grad. My schools had no reputation, yet I was well-prepared. I think that when kids have the opportunity of several excellent choices, the big picture and long-term need to be considered.</p>

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<p>I'm currently a freshman at Chapman in the theatre department. It is a fantasic school to recieve acting training that will get you jobs if you commit to it (that's kind of their proven mantra). Their specialty is in breeding theatrical groups, shakespearian, stylistic, abstract, modern, technical, and musical theatre, as well as major pushes for film actors with all of us being cast in numerous film rpoductions every year in the film school. </p>

<p>Graduates are sucessful (one of them was just this past month cast as a lead U/S for Mamma Mia's Nat'l Tour, and another alum was cast in The Lion King) and attest greatly to the fact that you always will have work wih the training you get here. </p>

<p>We are about to create a LOT of buzz becuase our theatre department is getting coupled with the powerhouse school of music and the amazing school of dance to create a college of perfoming arts. There have been mumblings about Musical Theatre, but who knows. </p>

<p>In response to students living on campus, the school is great, has lots of stuff to do, and only has 44% living on campus becuase many students after freshman year choose to live off campus in local apartment complexes... there's a HUGE chapman community here, just not in residence life per se. </p>

<p>Freshman are ALWAYS performing- student directed scenes (I did 4, including onces from West Side Story, Rent, and Avenue Q), that Big Broadway Showcase people have been talking about (I was in that too), and our annual musical (we do one every year, this time it's Little Shop of Horrors). Currently, there are 4 frehsman in it- including myself, playing SEYMOUR (yep, a freshman lead- I started as the undertsudy, and had a supporting role as every salesman in act 2, but they bumped me up). We do 6 shows a year (currently, we're working on Little Shop, A Night of Kabuki/Noh Theatre, and The Tempest). </p>

<p>We only accept on average 44% of our applicants. Film and Music take 1/10th of those who apply. Our average SAT is 1818 and HS gpa is 3.6. </p>

<p>And Chapman University College, which is a great program for continued education, will soon be it's own entitiy, and have no affiliation with Chapman University or it's main Orange campus. I can assure you the degree here is academically challenging and preporatory for grad school or the big bad world. I regularly have more challenging and rewarding academic AND performing experiences than my friends in acting programs at UCLA and NYU. </p>

<p>PM me if you have ANY questions...</p>

<p>ps... sorry about my lazy misspellings... it's really late and I just got out of a 5 hour tech...</p>

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<p>Thank you ElliotsMom and Drum87. </p>

<p>Drum, it is nice to hear from you as I recall your admissions journey last year. You sound happy and engaged in your training and bravo on playing Seymour as a freshman! Thanks for giving an insider look from a current theater student as it is helpful to those prospies who are reading. </p>

<p>Elliotsmom, it is really good to hear from someone in the Southern CA region talk about a school's reputation regionally as those in the East don't really ever hear about Chapman. I can see that the fact that Chapman has a continuing ed adult program that the reputation can also be "mixed" with that as anyone can attend that. For regular undergrads, the selectivity is in the "stats" of admitted students and admit rate. I understand it is not high on the ladder, but as someone in the east, I can tell you the same is true of Drew and Ithaca in terms of that they are really geared in terms of selectivity for the average student. They are very fine schools but not that high on the reputation ladder. As you say, though I truly don't care about rankings and never read them, but you said Drew is ranked 66 for Liberal arts colleges, and that is not that high. So, while I certainly recommend Drew and Ithaca to students all the time (I'm not talking the BFA at Ithaca for the moment to keep it consistant with regard to BA degrees), they are schools most geared to the average student (very generally speaking) in terms of how hard they are to get in, etc. For an above average student, these are safety schools. I truly recommend them. But as Chapman is where you live, I have a feeling the same could be said of Drew and Ithaca on the East Coast. However, these schools don't have a big continuing ed program and so are only known for the liberal arts program. A school like Chapman might be known for the continuing ed in the public eye which is another thing all together as anyone can attend basically. Many may know the school due to that. Muhlenberg is a more selective BA liberal arts school than Drew or Ithaca. I truly appreciate that you shared what people on the West coast say about Chapman.</p>

<p>In terms of choosing Chapman with regards to THEATER, I forgot to mention but it is not apples to apples when talking of choosing a BA program in theater because Chapman offers a BFA in Theater Performance for those selected into it after the first two years. That would be a consideration for someone comparing it to say, Drew, which does not offer a BFA. Also, in terms of JUST theater, the BA at Chapman requires an audition and the BA at Drew does not. None of these things make it "better" but just factors to consider when weighing options.</p>

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<p>Drum87 - thanks for that update of the program at Chapman. It is encouraging to know that the school is moving towards a Performing Arts College within the University. Also, that there will be more separation between the undergrad school and continuing ed or adult ed. That may indeed help with perceived reputation here regionally. </p>

<p>SoozieVt - The rankings, like everything else, are but one guage that can help folks from outside the region understand the school in reference to the whole. Perhaps I've misunderstood the rankings (of USNWR), but it appears that the national universities and national LACs rank is higher than those schools listed as regional bachelors or masters schools. Interestingly, Drew at 66 is ranked above Muhlenburg at 73, yet I think we would agree that Muhlenburg has the better reputation academically and for theatre/MT. Please enlighten me if I've misread the ranking schema.</p>

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<p>ElliotsMom...I have to preface my comments in that I am NOT into rankings at all and do not pay attention to rankings. My kids never looked at rankings to select colleges or to impact their ultimate choice for matriculation. As an example, I have a child who was accepted to University of Pennsylvania, an Ivy League school, as a Ben Franklin Scholar. When she applied to colleges, like with most people, her schools were grouped as reach, match, and safety in terms of her chances of admissions (which indeed have to do with selectivity, admit rate, stats of admitted students, etc.). However, her list was also grouped into most favorite, favored, and "like a lot, enough to attend" but least favorite. This grouping was not by rank or prestige or reputation. She has never seen US News' rankings. I do not look at them either (until I read your post, which made me look at the schools you were talking about and the various ranking systems). When she had acceptances in hand, she chose three of her accepted schools to make return visits and to select one to attend. Two of the schools that made her final cut to consider attending are ranked lower than Penn and are not Ivies. These schools fit what she personally prefered in a college more than Penn. </p>

<p>So, keep in mind that when I was posting before, I was not talking of rankings and to be honest, do not care a whole lot about rankings or prestige. So, I don't use rankings as a point of reference. </p>

<p>That said, I looked up the schools you were discussing in US News online 2007 Edition. Drew is in the rankings list for Liberal Arts Colleges. It is ranked 69th. Ithaca and Chapman are not in the same rankings list and so it makes it harder to compare in terms of "rank" between these three schools. As you pointed out, Chapman is in the rankings that US News classifies as Master Universities which they define as:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Like the National Universities, these institutions provide a full range of undergraduate and master's programs. But they offer few, if any, doctoral programs. The 557 universities in this category are ranked within four geographic areas-North, South, Midwest, and West-because, in general, they tend to draw students heavily from surrounding states. Like all U.S. News categories, the regional groupings are derived from the classification framework established by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching in 2000.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Thus, Chapman is ranked 11th in this category for its region (Western). It is not a liberal arts college like Drew. It also tends to draw students mostly from the West. It is a different sort of college than Drew. Ithaca is also grouped by US News under "Master Universities" but for the North. In that category, it is ranked 7th (kinda similarly to Chapman for their respective regions). </p>

<p>So, the rankings have something to do with reputation I suppose, and in the case of Chapman and Ithaca, only within their respective regions. Drew is ranked with all liberal arts colleges and comes in at 69th in that category. </p>

<p>However, I personally don't pick schools much to do with rank/prestige, except of course I'd want my own kids or students I advise to go to schools that are thought of well. Ideally, attending a school that is a best "fit" that is also as good of a school you can attend, works out nicely. </p>

<p>Earlier, however, I was talking about selectivity. In that regard, in the same US News 2007 online Edition, Chapman had an admit rate of 53%, Ithaca had 76%, and Drew had 77%. In terms of the percentage of students admitted who came from the top 25% of their high school class, for Chapman that was 92%, for Ithaca 64% and for Drew 36%. It appears that one must be a stronger student to get into Chapman than into Drew or Ithaca. While I am not familiar with Chapman's reputation, as I live in the East, again, Drew and Ithaca tend to be more for average students. Drew, in particularly, as the class rank stats reveal. Further, Chapman has the lowest admit rate.</p>

<p>In the US New rankings, within their respective categories as described above, Chapman was ranked 1st in selectivity (higher than its overall ranking), Ithaca was ranked 13 in selectivity (lower than its overall ranking), and Drew was ranked 97th in selectivity (lower than its overall ranking). Ithaca and Drew's reputation in terms of rank seem to be higher than their selectivity to be admitted, whereas Chapman is more selective than its overall rank (in their respective categories). </p>

<p>Truly since I don't view rankings normally, I go with selectivity and just a general reputation. You would know Chapman WAY more than me in terms of regional reputation as it is a more regionally known school and you live in CA and I live in Vermont. I do think Chapman's local reputation might get skewed if its continuing ed program is well publicized, a program that likely takes anyone which is quite separate from it is fairly selective (mid range) undergraduate admissions and student body's academic strength. </p>

<p>For a THEATER applicant, however, comparing Chapman to Ithaca's BA or Drew's BA is skewed a bit and there are considerations to be thought about. I personally would not be that into Ithaca's BA given there is a very strong BFA at the same small school. I'd rather a BA in theater where it was the only theater program. In that regard, Drew fits the bill. Chapman, however, is an audition-based BA and so conceivably, the BA candidates are screened for acting talent before being admitted, unlike at Drew or Ithaca's BA. Further, for someone who is oscillating between a BA and a BFA path, Chapman has the OPTION to seek a BFA after their second or third year by audition (such is the case with a few other schools like Hofstra). So, for a THEATER applicant, these are all considerations in terms of where to attend. These schools might fit different people for different reasons. The locations of Drew and Chapman would be favorable to SOME students over Ithaca. As mentioned, I am not talking of Ithaca's top notch BFA program and indeed my own kid applied to it and was admitted. She was not keen on Ithaca College's location (small town type "city") or setting (can't walk to things off campus). While Ithaca's BFA is well known and has a fine reputation, it was one of my D's least favorite schools (she also, if given a choice, which she was fortunate to have, preferred a more challenging academic environment and also better dance). </p>

<p>I really value hearing, however, the local reputation of a college, particularly when those colleges are not well known on my coast. So, keep the feedback coming.</p>

<p>PS...I agree with your example in that Muhlenberg is a more selective liberal arts college with stronger students overall than Drew yet Drew is ranked higher. I also would pick the 'berg for theater over Drew, particularly for a MT kid. That is why the rankings don't help me :D.</p>

<p>One more PS....I never look at US News' rankings. However, US News is useful as a resource to get data on each college such as acceptance rates, mid SAT or ACT range, class rank data, average GPA of accepted students and lots of other data on individual colleges.</p>

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<p>Drum- I am am so happy that Chapman has been a good school for you. My D's friend, (first name, Jacob) is very happy there too, and she has another friend in the film school as well.</p>

<p>I will try to make it over and see you get eaten by a giant plant. That is so exciting!</p>