Long term Goal Engineering PHD, what should I do in undergrad?

Hello!

I posted this in thegradcafe.com and wanted to post it here.

I am going to be transferring and spending the next few years completing a Mechanical Engineering bachelors. Ultimately, I want to pursue a PHD in Mechanical Engineering. I wanted to know what I should focus on as far should I look to co-op/intern with companies that match my research interests or should I spend my time getting involved in undergraduate research at my school? Is either clearly better than the other in terms for applying to PHD programs?

Thank you for your time.

Do you even know what you want to study for a PhD? If not, then yor first goal needs to be finding a passion for a research field within the larger field and only then start thinking in earnest about graduate school. Absolutely get involved in undergraduate research. That’s superior to internships when it comes to graduate admissions, though I’d suggest doing an internship or two as well just to test out the waters in industry before committing to a PhD.

@boneh3ad‌ Right now its broad, but a combination of ocean engineering and aero engineering principles. Ideally, I’d like to get a masters at Virginia Tech’s aeropsace program that offers the opportunity to get a naval certificate done with the graduate program. From there I will have really narrowed my interests down and apply to a Phd program with a more specific topic in mind. Ideally I’d like to be competitive enough to apply to MIT for a Phd. I guess I didn’t really think about doing both, it wouldn’t be bad to have a company to fall back on for graduation in case of academic burn out or financial need I suppose. Thank you for your time and response!

My point is that you shouldn’t sit here and plan on getting a PhD (or even a MS) before even knowing what you want to study. Both, especially the PhD, are massive undertakings with a very profound impact on your job qualifications and your future career path, so choosing to do that before you even have a general topic in mind is putting the cart before the horse. I didn’t decide on graduate school until my junior year of my undergraduate ME program, and even then, I wasn’t totally sold on a PhD yet because it’s such a major life choice. At that point I at least knew I wanted to study fluid mechanics, though, so I had some kind of basis for my graduate program search.

You need to focus on your undergraduate studies and make sure you do well, and determine through your courses which areas interest you the most. Try and do research and some internships along the way so that you get a flavor of both, and then after a 2 or 3 years of your undergraduate studies you might have an idea of how best to vector the rest of your career. Of course, it’s good to keep the idea of PhD open in your mind the whole time since there are certain things you ought to do, like research and maintaining a good GPA, in order to be competitive for graduate school. Hanging your future plans on a PhD at this point is just getting ahead of yourself.

Also, setting a goal of MIT right now is silly. Graduate schools are not like undergraduate programs. You should be much more concerned with specific research strengths at different programs than the brand name on the front of the building. A good, well-connected PhD advisor running a good research group that is aligned with your interests trumps the school name brand nearly 100% of the time when it comes to graduate school.

Agree with ^^. For internships, try to find research related ones at the national labs (Sandia, Oak Ridge…) You will have to look carefully at the description of the internships. The first part of the year is prime time for finding internships for the summer. A good internship will expose you to research being conducted in depth. (a bad internship will be busy work, or just plain boring at worst). If there is research being conducted in areas of interest to you at your school, then get involved with that. As you do research, and read papers for background information, and talk to professors and other students, you may start to notice which schools, programs, and professors are conducting research that appeals to you. As above, the professor and program are more important than the school. Good schools like MIT will have lots of good programs, but there can be excellent research being conducted at other schools.

Doing research in academia would be more related to graduate school than intern in industry.

Thank you everyone! Its actually kind of nice to know its not something I need to plan for so early on. I really just wanted to make sure I didn’t accidentally only do things that will just cut me off from the opportunity in the long run. Keeping my GPA was always the plan. I’ll definitely take this next year and explore my options on campus and go from there. I didn’t think about research lab internships though, I will definitely look into that. Thank you for all the feed back!

I would start looking at possibilities at MIT. Admissions often are done on a departmental (not school-wide) basis. I am actually not sure at MIT. You may want to try to intern at an affiliated lab or company to your target (e.g., MIT). I think there is a company called Bluefin (?) that spun out from MIT doing remotely piloted vehicles and autonomous underwater vehicles if you are considering ocean or mechanical engineering. You may also want to intern at Draper Laboratories or Lincoln Laboratories; in addition to looking at purely academic options (such as WHOI).

The point is, I think you are being strategic and wise for looking ahead. I would focus on your primary target, and if you fall short, the experience will still be very valuable in applications to other target schools.

This is graduate school we are talking about here. Of course it is done at the departmental level.

This really isn’t great advice. Again, this is graduate school. Interning at a random company just because it is somehow affiliated with your target program is not necessarily going to be a productive endeavor. It’s far better to use your time to figure out which specialty area you wish to study and then get experience in that area, preferably doing academic research. Shooting just for companies affiliated with your target programs limits your possible experiences to only those covered by said companies. Further, academic research experience will still be preferable for graduate admissions than interning in industry, even if the company in question is affiliated somehow with the target program.

Further, there is no guarantee that MIT (or any other specific school) is the best place to go for whatever field a given student decides to study in greater depth. It is simply not wise to limit yourself to only the topics covered by such affiliated companies when you really ought to be trying to figure out what exactly it is about which you are passionate. After all, if you end up in a PhD program studying a topic that doesn’t really excite you, your odds of completing the program fall through the floor.

There is absolutely, positively no way he could possibly know what his primary target should be. He hasn’t even decided on a broad research area yet. If he finds his passion in a given topic, who’s to say that MIT has the best program for it (or for him)? This isn’t like undergraduate admissions. You can’t just target some name brand school blindly and assume that its name brand alone will provide some minimal level of positive experience. It is much more about research fit, and for that reason, for now, the OP needs to focus on himself/herself and figuring out what he/she wants to do, then target programs based on that information.

Wow, @boneh3ad, quite a strong response. You certainly did turn my advice around in a way that was not intended, and re-interpreted my words in unflattering ways.

I see I did not complete my thought: MIT has 3 relevant departments to the OP- Aero/Astro, Ocean Engineering, and Mechanical Engineering. As the OP comes closer to figuring out what to do, he needs to narrow down his interest. As admissions is handled by the department, not MIT as a school (MIT for example, other schools will be similar- I said often, since there may be a school I don’t know of that handles graduate admissions a different way), he will need to decide on which department.

IF it is in Ocean Engineering, working for a spin-off company such as Bluefin (if I have the name right) will give industrial experience that is heavily collaborative with the MIT labs. This can be very helpful, if the OP decides he wants to work in this field, as the time approaches. So, if he decides he wants to work in ocean engineering developing new undersea vehicles, working for a company started by an MIT professor or student that acts as a de facto extension of an MIT lab is certainly a great option.

I assume the OP will first refine his interests, as he stated in his posting. If he is more interested in Aeronautical engineering or in other aspects of Mechanical engineering, and his interests align with the vast and broad scope of Lincoln Labs or inertial navigation interests at Draper, working at one of these places will give contact with MIT-affiliated researchers, (as would working at GTRI if he were targeting Georgia Tech). I detailed this example so as not to seem to be recommending interning at some random company just because they are affiliated (e.g. Northrop-Grumman), but to target academic positions as well as companies that have SPECIFIC spin-out close working ties with the target institution.

The OP stated he had an interest in doing PhD work at MIT, perhaps regardless of whether or not they are considered the best place to study his particular aspect of Mechanical, Ocean, or Aerospace engineering. I am assuming 1) it is difficult to gain admittance to MIT as a grad student (and recommendations from affiliated staff/faculty can speak to his fit and ability to do the work), and 2) he will refine his interests and is looking for what to do as he travels down this refined-interest road. I am taking him at his word that MIT is his preferred target school; and then simply using it as an EXAMPLE. That is why I said “e.g.”

I stand by my advice to refine the target, and then try to intern as close to your target as possible- both the purely academic options as well as looking at affiliated spin-out companies.

Do you REALLY disagree that he should focus down his interest, then focus on his primary target program? Would you rather that he randomly intern in some academic lab?

I would NEVER say to target a brand name institution for graduate school:

Also, working at a company that acts as an extension of an academic laboratory- with VERY close ties- often involves greatly shortened timelines, and increased scope of responsibility than interning in an academic lab; resulting in increased experience with the same “upsides” of working in R&D with a university professor. It is absolutely worth putting into the hat as an option to consider.

Here is my reasoning. There are a lot of people on these forums who are pretty clueless about the process of applying to and choosing a graduate program. This includes myself when I went through that process. Many of them treat the situation as being essentially the same as applying to an undergraduate program, which is not the case. Ultimately, my goal here is to try and help those people out and shed some light on how the process actually works and how to make it work best for them.

Now, this OP came in here with enthusiasm, which is great, but with his/her mind already geared toward a specific school without even having an area of research interest in mind yet. That is a bad way to approach graduate school. My problem with your post, @ItsJustSchool‌, is that it tends to reinforce this approach. MIT is a great research institution and does a lot of neat stuff, and for people whose research interests align with their strengths, is probably a great choice for a graduate program.

However, the OP doesn’t even have a research interest at this point, and I don’t think reinforcing the idea of gearing all of his/her experiences toward going to MIT is the best way to help. Instead, @MechanicalFox‌ ought to be looking into what sort of research is of interest in a graduate setting and try to gear experiences toward that. If at that point there is no clear favorite school, then sure, the MIT-affiliated companies are perfectly fine as an option if they align with his/her interests. If they don’t, he/she is still much better off heading off to a company or lab that is a better fit.

Even then, it is still better to get the experience in a professor’s lab doing relevant research than it is to go to an affiliated company, unless that company is literally doing its work in an academic lab with the professor. Otherwise, R&D in industry is dramatically different from academic research, even if it is still research. Experience working in an academic lab is a better indicator of suitability for graduate research than is working in an industrial R&D department.

I do fully support the idea of doing an internship or co-op even if the goal is graduate school, though. It’s a good idea to go out there and at least get a taste of industry before committing to a PhD. Honestly, it’s a pretty silly idea to get a PhD if you don’t want to do research as a career, so getting some taste of industry could save you from making a huge mistake or else might reinforce the decision to go to graduate school (as it did for me). Still, to be most effective, the experience ought to be at a company that aligns reasonably well with your interests, and picking a company just because of its close relationship with a single school can be counterproductive in this sense unless it just so happens that the company is aligned with the student’s interests.

So basically, what I am saying is that the OP shouldn’t gear all of his choices toward getting a PhD at MIT at this point, and should instead be focusing on getting the right experiences in subfields that are of interest to him/her. If, a particular subfield has not yet been identified when it comes time to look for internships, then by all means, feel free to look first at those kinds of companies you mentioned. I just don’t think it should be encouraged to focus so sharply on one school this early in the process without any idea on the type of research he/she hopes to do for the PhD.