<p>If you can get into a UG NS program that is great. But, it is not necessary for grad school NS. Strong biology and chemistry is what you need and no debt 
</p>
<p>Thank you Scubachick. It will be really nice if she can finish her undergrad without any debt. </p>
<p>I was very fortunate to get my PhD in physiology tuition free and with a living stipend. It is harder to do that now, so the less UG debt the better.</p>
<p>To me, with a neuroscience direction such as the OP mentioned, it seems less a matter of where one does his/her undergrad but more a matter of accessing good summer internships, taking the right courses, doing a mentored independent research project at least once, and, of course, making good grades. Many schools have good music teachers and satisfying music experiences for developing scientists. D chose an LAC with an excellent violin teacher and played in several chamber groups that were composed of strong players. Check out who the music teachers are at the schools your D applies to and start an e-mail exchange to get a feel for what the possibilities are.</p>
<p>My daughter is now in the process of applying to neuroscience PhD programs. She could not decide on med school or research (did not want MD/PhD) during undergrad and did a two year post-bac at NIH as she wrestled with which direction to take. The NIH post-bac program is for new bachelorâs graduates who are expected to apply to med school or PhD science programs. D was provided a good stipend, health insurance and was reimbursed for one course a semester during her NIH time. She also volunteered in a medical clinic where she got some amazing firsthand medical experience. While at NIH, sheâs gotten her name on two papers, has become quite good at fMRI reading and is currently writing up a paper she presented at a conference last summer. She is in charge of her own project and has really grown as a scientist. Interestingly, D has continued playing violin in a number of groups at the Peabody conservatory on the side-music is still there. </p>
<p>As an undergrad, D applied for and was accepted to two summer NSF internships. Housing and a stipend were provided.The experiences provided her with opportunities not available at her LAC and gave her additional strong references. Dâs work also earned her a name spot on a publication with one of the summer internships.</p>
<p>Given the interests the OP mentioned, I, like scubachick, suggest OPâs child have a strong undergraduate science background. The programs my D is applying to expect a year of O chem, calculus based physics, statistics and a number of biology courses (genetics, microbiology, pharmacology, etc). </p>
<p>About half of the programs D has applied to waived application fee and indicated that her travel expenses would be covered when called to interview. It looks like grad school debt is not going to be an issue. The stipends run 28-33K a year (most provide this for five years) at the schools she has applied to. Tuition is waived and health insurance is provided.</p>
<p>Best wishes in your search!</p>
<p>@hornet that is good news on the stipends. Will they require D to teach or can she work just on her project? I did not have to teach. I have seen more schools move away from pure research stipends to teaching requirements. It is great to get the teaching experience as long as the load doesnât take away research time.
I agree OP child should make the most of summer research projects. </p>
<p>Full funding is the norm for most science PHD programs. Lately there has been a number of PhD programs that admit students without funding or with very little funding. It is unwise to accept those offers. No funding is basically a rejection. </p>
<p>For those interested in the sciences they should definitely consider doing an NSF REU (Research Experience for Undergraduates). These fully funded summer opportunities give undergraduates a chance to âtry onâ doing research and see if they really do want to go on to get a PhD.</p>
<p>As for teaching NSF has some specific funding that allows for a student to be exempt from teaching their first year in Graduate school. But only for one year. To get that same funding in subsequent years the student has to teach. It would be foolish for a grad student not to teach because if they are going to go into academia, teaching experience is taken into account when hiring.</p>
<p>Qualifying for All-State may or may not mean extraordinary talent: just for perspective. Music ensembles are available at almost all schools and it is likely the daughter will be able to continue flute no matter where she goes.</p>
<p>Composition can be a serious academic subject, requiring extensive study in music history, theory, aural skills and technology. A hobby can be pursued anywhere. It would seem that the OPâs daughter does not have the experience or background to qualify for merit aid in composition, and I am not sure whether choosing a school based on a composition program is relevant.</p>
<p>Merit aid based on academics, volunteering and research may be worthwhile to pursue.</p>
<p>The OP and her daughter are going to pursue undergrad neuroscience no matter what anyone on here says, and their list may or may not promise merit aid: hopefully there will be nice surprises. </p>
<p>Again, I wish this thread had been carried on in a different forum. There is considerable parental knowledge about the path for sciences in this thread and it would have been nice for those in another more appropriate forum to benefit!</p>
<p>Good points about the time involved in music studies, compmom. In the case of our family, D had been playing violin since age 7, had attended several summer festivals with good scholarships and was considered by her teachers to be competitive for some conservatories/good schools of music. Even with that background, D felt she would have a better music experience by not going to schools that had conservatories or top-ranked music programs as the demands for such programs would require a lot of time. As much as she loved music, she knew early on that her top priority was the science. Because of the rigor of the science courses, there were many weeks Dâs violin practice was last on the list. She did take the theory sequence and found it a lot of work combined with the sciences. She chose not to participate in orchestra and, instead, played in chamber groups with other students that were at her level since the orchestra had a wide range of abilities and would not have been as satisfying. </p>
<p>It is interesting how many big schools with good music have orchestras for life sciences (Michigan, a school that has an outstanding behavioral neuroscience program, for example, has an orchestra for life sciences that is mostly grad, med and dental students- <a href=âLife Sciences Orchestraâ>Life Sciences Orchestra; , Carnegie Mellon has one for non-music majors that is full of engineers and according to S, good).</p>
<p>The OP may want to consider the fact that the top neuroscience programs in big schools may not be a great experience at the undergraduate level. These programs tend to be focused on their graduate students.</p>
<p>Funding: as stacjac mentioned, it is rare for a first-year grad student to teach (unlike 30+ years ago when I was 22 and teaching general psychology to an auditorium full of freshmen). Many grad students are in charge of recitation sessions and labs sections rather than the responsibility of an entire course.</p>
<p>@hornetâ thank you so much for all the information you provided. I think my D wants to do exactly the same thing that your D did in undergrad. I will make sure that she looks into summer research internships. She already sent her application to Columbia ED, and if does not get accepted, she already told me that she will go to the school who offers her the best scholarship package and with the best fit of course. She has her list of schools, so I will tell her to check out the music teachers at those schools to get a better sense of what ensembles she could join. As far as getting a strong undergrad science background, D already expressed her special interest in taking classes in Orgo, Biochem and Genetics. Taking a Calc based physics should not be a problem. She got 5âs in her AP Bio and Chem, and she is actually bored with her AP physics class because it is not Calc based. She also got a 5 in AP Calc AB, and she is cruising through her BC class. Just on the side, do you recommend that my D take the general Bio, Chem and Physics again in undergrad even if she gets college credit for them, specially if she wants to double major in music composition?</p>
<p>@StacJip I am sure that my D would not mind teaching, specially if it would mean getting full funding for grad school. I also believe that the teaching experience is going to be a plus for her, even if she decides not to work in academia. </p>
<p>@compmom Thank you for your response. My D is indeed going for neuroscience as her main major. Music composition is a hobby right now, and she is not counting on a a merit aid in composition. She already looked at how many credits she needs and what classes to take, in order to double major or minor in music composition. You are right about having to take required classes in history, theory, ear training, technology, as well as composition, piano, and participation in ensembles. She is aware of how rigorous her science classes are going to be, and I donât know if she will drop her music composition if/when her sciences becomes too much for her to handle. What she wants is to at least have the option to study composition. If she is willing to work hard for a double major (or minor), I donât have the heart to discourage her interest in music. Because a good neuroscience program is important for her, she decided against studying music at a conservatory. Her auditions will be just for the purpose of getting into the schools music program. She is working long and hard on her composition portfolio right now. Some schools require original compositions (of different music genres), while others just need arrangement samples. </p>
<p>Now to answer the question, does she have the extra ordinary talent? I am not in any authority to tell. D is not going for music performance, so maybe she does not even need to have extra ordinary talent in performing. By the way, her teacher said he will recommend her for All Eastern. If she gets invited to play at All Eastern (which only happens every other year), will that be enough to give her the recognition that she is good enough to study music in a music program somewhere? She only wish to play as a member of an ensemble. As a music major/minor, playing in an ensemble will give her music credits, and she will get her wish to continue playing her flute. </p>
<p>@Nmctmom - for a BA in composition at many schools or just to take electives, her talent and skills as a composer wonât matter for entry level courses. If she were applying for a BM or for an elite program which offers a BA instead - then, yes, her talent and experience will matter just as much as if she were a performance major.</p>
<p>Iâm curious - which programs ask for compositions in different genres? We never saw that in the kind of programs my son applied to. Different instrumentation, yes, but not genres. Possibly different historical styles - but, again, not in the kind of programs my son looked at.</p>
<p>Do note that the composition program at Columbia is skewed heavily towards the graduate studentsâŠ</p>
<p>Many schools do seem to use the term âdifferent genresâ including, as I remember, JuilliardâŠ</p>
<p>Your daughter can take composition and other music classes as electives and see how it goes. If she gets into a school based on her academic stats, she will have access to music classes. Some schools even have composition classes for non-music majors. The All-State or All-Eastern status can be on the common application (these are not meaningful for conservatories but show her interest and ability in music on the common app as part of a larger picture).</p>
<p>We know composers who didnât major in music but continued to write while studying something else. And music majors who are there for composing but are required to take many other classes may even have periods where they are too busy to compose. It varies. The trick is in getting music played- and that applies to every student composer.</p>
<p>Flute will be possible in most all schools, as an extracurricular.</p>
<p>Your daughter has a nice background but as you say, probably not enough for merit aid based on music, as you said. The competition is very tough. But she is young and can develop both as a flutist and a composer, no matter what path she chooses. She may continue to compose for fun or this talent might take a turn and become an all-consuming interest. Right now, clearly neuroscience is primary.</p>
<p>The main message is that your daughter can relax, apply to schools with the sciences she wants, and she can expect the music to work out whether she studies it formally or not. It is nice to just sort of let things happen in a situation like this, because it is possible to do that without doing any harm. Good luck!</p>
<p>@SpiritManager my D mentioned that she needs to write a classical piece (the one she is missing), and I donât remember for which school. She also said that she has jazz and contemporary original short pieces which are ready to submit. Maybe I misunderstood her, and it is for different instrumentation. I will get back to you on that. </p>
<p>I did not know that the composition program in Columbia is skewed heavily towards graduate students. She said that Columbia asked for 3 possible majors/concentrations, and she wrote Neuroscience first, and music second (I believe music education was last). If by chance she gets in, I was hoping that she will get the chance to take music composition classes. How does the music program in Columbia rate as? I was told that she has to apply later to get into their music program, and there are pre-requisite courses that she needs to take. </p>
<p>@compmom thank you again for your feedback. I think the All Eastern invitations donât come until late December, and it will be too late to put it in the common app. Actually, she could not even put National Merit commended on her Columbia application, because she got the notification letter after she applied. Thank you for the re-assurance that she can take music/composition classes even as a neuroscience major. Is it going to be hard to get your music played if you are not a music major? Doesnât she need to hang around the music department to get her music played? </p>
<p>I donât think my D can relax until she gets her first acceptance letter. I also feel like she is afraid that she will not have time for music, if she does not actively put in the effort to do it in college. I hope she can just continue to compose for fun. I donât know if my D can just let things happen. I think we raised her to always think and plan ahead. I donât know if she will believe me now if I tell her to just relax. </p>
<p>Spirit Manager, way back when, my daughter took the âgenresâ term to mean solo, string quartet, orchestral piece, different instrumentation combos, that kind of thing. Nmctmom, for admission to composition programs some students are writing 20 minute string quartets or even full orchestral works, and have had them played by live musicians. Many programs are mainly classical, but not all.
Your daughter can develop as a composer during college years: there is plenty of time.</p>
<p>As for getting music played, it is hard for everyone. Some schools, and certainly conservatories, provide musicians and composersâ conceerts periodiodically. There are options such as entering competitions, or doing summer programs. My own daughter started a concert series at her school for composers, and obtained funding to pay outside musicians when possible. Plenty of non-majors entered pieces for these concerts. And plenty of non-majors were to be found âhanging around the music departmentâ, for lessons, rehearsals and performances, and classes. The only obstacle would be if an intense major like neuroscience, at a school with many general ed requirements , would leave little room or time for music.</p>
<p>It does not matter that much whether the All-State is on the application.</p>
<p>It is great to have something in life that is enjoyable. Sometimes studying something you love enhances enjoyment, sometimes not- depends on personality and the nature of the studies.</p>
<p>I understand it is hard to relax about admission and sympathize. But I also believe that overplanning can interfere with opportunities, and that is what I meant about letting things happen a little. If that does not fit your family culture that is fine- my family may tend to be a little too relaxed But we get there all the same, mostly.</p>
<p>Your daughter can pick schools she wants to go to based on many things, with a particular eye toward neuroscience if she prefers, but as others have said, she can also do psychology or biology and do neuroscience at the grad level. She can enter music classes and in the course of her first year or two, decide what she wants. She may encounter other interests along the way, too, if she is open to them. Her academic accomplishments will gain her admission to some good schools and I hope she flourishes!</p>
<p>@compmom I think you and @SpiritManager are probably both right about the definition of âgenreâ. For admission to composition programs, all I know for sure is that different schools have different requirements. My D bought a a computer program that she uses to write music with. I listened to one of her original full orchestral piece, and that was only about nine and a half minutes long. I doubt that she has written a 20 minute long original piece. I do not know the length of the original composition requirement, or whether live musicians will be used to play them. I think in this case, SpiritManager has a son who was/is a composition major, and will know better. </p>
<p>I was under the impression that she can apply for a double major later (even as a sophomore). I guess I focused more on the neuroscience programs, and did not look at the composition programs enough. </p>
<p>I agree with @compmom - donât worry about the music program or possible double majors. If it works out, great, otherwise, she can just take electives.</p>
<p>What do you mean when you say your daughter is using a program to write music? Are you referring to Finale or Sibelius, notation programs, or something else? Donât focus on length: the point is that many students are very experienced and skilled in classical composition and have worked hard on it for some years before applying. They study with teachers, attend summer programs, and have a good idea of where and with whom they want to study. Most schools that want portfolios want live performances of at least some of the works. It does not matter: your daughter does not need to submit a portfolio unless she really wants to, and she needs to think carefully about whether the portfolio will help or hurt her with admissions.</p>
<p>Your daughter, as we have said, has flexibility available to her when she goes on campus. She can change or add majors, certainly. Or take electives. There is nothing to worry about. She can apply based on academics and continue to choose her path, including music, whether the music is in or out of school.</p>
<p>@Nmctmom Do know that @compmomâs daughter also is an accomplished composer. Yes, she did get a BA instead of a BM (at a top program,) but she had studied composition for years and had a number of live performances of her work by professional musicians while still in high school. There is a small group of very accomplished composition students who apply to the top programs for undergrad - who have worked at their art/craft for many years - national awards, commissions, live performances, even recordings. But, yes, there are also beginners like your daughter who first learn the serious art of composing while in college. And, for them it is best that they cannot and do not declare a major until their sophomore year.</p>
<p>Although itâs true that there is no undergraduate degree in composition at Columbia, there are a number of composition and composition-related courses that one can take as an undergrad, from intro to more advanced depending on the studentâs level. This provides some examples: <a href=âhttp://music.columbia.edu/programs/courses/compositionâ>http://music.columbia.edu/programs/courses/composition</a>. My son took a jazz composition and arranging course that had undergrads and grad students in it and enjoyed it a lot. </p>
<p>On the jazz side, there are a number of avenues for getting original compositions performed. The school devotes one concert a year at Miller Theater to original compositions, and the jazz combos often do some original compositions at other concerts. There are also informal concerts - e.g., sponsored by Jazz House - that do some original compositions. I understand that jazz and classical are not the same, so youâd have to ask about similar opportunities on the classical side.</p>