Looking for a great fit LAC

College Search & Selection
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@LoveTheBard she isn’t trying to play fast and loose. She genuinely loves many things, most things about St. Olaf. We have had communication with a family that has a D there. It was what propelled her to look harder and take the chance of rejection. Nobody is talking about breaking an ED agreement at this point. We were talking about getting one in before the deadline while she still had access to her GC.

It is our understanding that ED gives her a big edge at SO that she doesn’t want to miss. She can take this time between now and the 7th to reflect on the pros and cons of each school she gets accepted to and hopefully see her scores. At that point she can withdraw and move to RD if something else seems to be a better fit.

We are slightly disadvantaged because we can’t travel to many places without some kind of travel allowance, reimbursement, etc.

We have been so blessed with families that reached out and gave us amazing descriptions of a few campuses, and the culture at the schools she is considering.

I am encouraging her to still consider every single one that comes through. She has two weeks.

If she wasn’t serious about attending she would not have submitted the ED agreement but she knew she had a little wiggle room as the deadline is the 8th.

She did not have wiggle room to submit it. Today was the last day she had access to her GC before the deadline.

I’m not seeing where she has done anything unethical?

And of course it’s easy for her to get hooked on a school, but she hasn’t gotten hooked on every school or any school aside from Knox and St. Olaf. And I have presented her with a lot of options. Obviously her initial hook was Grinnell and that was literally the only school aside from her state school she applied to.

I would like her to take this time to really explore her options and see what her scores look like and see if that opens up other options that she would be interested in. She’s got two weeks. And all she has to do is call and asked to be moved to a regular decision. She even told SO she was hesitant to sign ED2 agreement. She’s been upfront.

Just because I use the word strategic doesn’t mean it’s dishonest. She bought herself some time over break without losing the ED advantage.

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You have several comments along these lines. But by applying ED, she has now made it so she can’t decide because of choir, Japanese, or even if someone else makes a better offer. If the St. Olaf offer is good, she MUST take it. Even if she can’t get in the choir or whatever. She doesn’t really get to say, “hey, I am low income, so I can try some more schools and take the very best financial deal” – or “hey, I like Knox better – I’d have to borrow a couple thousand more a year, but I’m willing to do that because they have Japanese or are more diverse or will let me in the choir.” She is COMMITTED.

Nope, it is not. A low EFC does not make it “easier to get out of”.

But she won’t be able to compare their offers to St. Olaf’s if she gets into St. Olaf.

If they don’t require that, it is silly to do it now. Most of these schools offer scholarships to more students than they think will accept them. She probably isn’t freeing any money up for others by doing this – she is just shutting doors before she needs to. Schools offer scholarships to sweeten the pot for students they want. They do NOT generally require a response before May 1. She should feel under no obligation to give them one. What if none of these other schools comes through?

I guess my point is that her search feels very single threaded, and it shouldn’t be. It is dashing from one school to another, and dropping the others off the list that she applied to previously. And as @LoveTheBard said, schools don’t look favorably on students who drop out of ED agreements, especially if the package they offer you is pretty much what your kid can take in federal loans plus summer earnings and work study.

it is a bit disingenuous to put in an ED application that she knows she may very well switch to RD. That isn’t “strategic” – that isn’t how colleges intend for their ED rounds to be used. And while it may not seem fair, generally it is seen as a good idea for students who need a lot of aid to apply EA and RD so they can compare their aid packages. That is a different kind of strategic approach.

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My biggest concerns about ED is that your D hasn’t visited the school and still doesn’t have a clear picture of her test scores which might allow for a whole host of other options. Nor has she considered any of the test-optional and test-flexible schools.

Have you run the NPC for St. Olaf and are you happy with what the NPC indicated that the school would offer? If what they offer is similar to what the NPC said, you are are ethical shaky ground if you back out of the ED agreement.

Moreover, given that St. Olaf only fills 25 percent of their incoming class through ED, I’m not sure how necessary that extra “ED bump” is (compared to other schools that take more than half of their incoming class through ED programs. The RD acceptance rate at St. Olaf is over 50% which makes the need for ED even less necessary. Last year they had fewer than 300 ED applicants and over 6,000 RD applicants. ED doesn’t seem to be a big thing at St. Olaf. Not sure why it is for your D, who hasn’t even seen the place.

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@intparent regarding ED applications not being a good idea…then why are we being told it is? At least with her current ACT score and no guarantees she will have it in time for 1/1-1/15 deadlines. We have to assume this is the score we are working with since she didn’t release during this weeks batch.

She has been using the website I posted above to do a side by side comparison, I actually think it’s quite useful. When she used that tool it brought her closer to SO. Also with her current ACT score the list of schools who meet full demonstrated need is very small. She stills wants to be somewhat regional. I’m the one who is pondering exploring other schools if her score jumps, me, I said it.

She and I both addressed summer earnings with SO btw. She worked at the local election office for a time, but that is sparse. We have no idea what she will be able to earn. She knows she needs to work and plans on it.

Her bringing SO choir into the equation is perfectly natural for her. She has been learning one of the songs that was gifted to SO for state contest. She has been exposed to their choir for 6 years. It’s easily one of the best choirs in the country and yes, choir is her equivalent of a Varsity sport. She has lettered in choir every year.

The two things that gave her pause are the lack of diversity question and offering Japanese. She has always wanted to study Japanese but she hasn’t, so who knows?

Using that website you see a breakdown in crime. It’s clear. Graduation rates, average income, even the weather.

I still think it’s a reach with her scores admissions says it’s not.
The % of students admitted ED is very high.
The average loan amounts are very low.

When I said the financial aid will ultimately make the decision, that’s very true.

I am the one that forced her to cast a a wider net, I didn’t expect to hear so soon and she got accepted at two I hadn’t really factored in. They were the safety schools everyone advised me to look for.

Her dismissing them in favor of Knox or SO, is logical.

I suppose her not being keen on my fav application is valid, she’s did some research about Quaker and found it uncomfortable. I found it appealing. We are different people with different agendas.

And yes, it would be easier for her to get out of an ED agreement if she couldn’t afford it. And if it didn’t factor in coming home. That’s a question we need answered. I don’t know how many times a year they factor in transportation home to the COA.

My D took over her communication with SO. I spoke to FA about my documents and my hesitation in ED because of FA.

I think it’s a bit hypothetical because I don’t know that she’ll get in. It certainly sounds encouraging but we learned our lesson.

We would have missed that and the edge we believe early decision gives her if she didn’t submit it today. And she’s genuinely moving this school to the top IF she could get in because they can offer her so much beyond just FA. Much like Grinnell would have.

And you’re right it’s very challenging when she can’t visit. I’ve never disagreed. That’s why I pass along the wonderfully descriptive messages people have sent regarding each campus.

I think there’s a certain type of school that she’s looking for and that’s why she dismissed others. Please don’t undervalue the importance of choir to her. If you’re not super involved in choral music, you wouldn’t understand the impact and the appeal of being able to participate in one of the best choirs in the country. When it looked like it was possible to be admitted, the choir was a big factor.

That being said, she is content and happy even to go to Knox, based on what she knows. She wouldn’t get quite the amount of opportunity, but there are other things she will gain, like Japanese, a little more diversity. I think it’s good for her to make a list of the pros and cons for each school because we don’t know that she can get in to SO. We do know she got into Knox.

Again, I don’t know how she feels about looking at other schools once her scores come back and I believe I said that. I am trying to speak for her, but she has taken more control which is what I wanted her to do. I have not been involved in every conversation that she’s had. And she’s had some conversation with SO.

I don’t even know what her conversation with Coe was like aside from the merit they offered, the personal phone call to tell her she was admitted and the bacon lovers club.

Please remember the school that brought her into this process was a school that could offer her the moon because of a large endowment. SO is another school that can do that. Also, her AO from Grinnell who she has great respect for, they really did bond, has still been communicating with her, she recommended SO to her.

But she was gun shy. She didn’t want to get her hopes up for the moon again. And based on the guidance I was given here, she found another school that she was drawn to. I call that success.

So, she can shoot for the moon again and still be quite happy at Knox. She really likes both.

I can’t help that she doesn’t feel connected to these other schools. I found them because I was lucky enough to be given sound advice. Of those she loves Knox.

I think she was quite courageous to try again for the moon.

If she learns something about lack of diversity that causes her to pause, she can move to RD.

But as I said in private message to someone else…How does she find the diversity she longs for and still get the opportunities afforded her at a school with such a large endowment?

If you look at the number of students who receive Pell Grants at Knox, it’s much higher than the number at SO.

And the opportunities correlate with those numbers. I feel like there is some diversity, but I haven’t been there either. I’m comforted by the general crime rate, sexual assault, hate crime numbers at SO. Although, the crime rates overall isn’t bad at Knox.

Minneapolis, a very cool city. Chicago, a very cool city. She is close to one major city at each campus.

Again, we are not counting on admission to SO. I think it might be a reach. But maybe not. What she lacks in test scores she makes up for with class rank and GPA.

She’s not with me tonight she left right after school, I don’t know what’s going through her head, I can only speculate. I do know that we had extensive conversation about the ED agreement.

I know she was concerned that there might be less diversity. But I don’t think she is trying to play the system. I think she explored what that iED agreement entails.

As far as declining her scholarships at her state school, it was absolutely wise for her to do that because she’s not going to go. That was the things she learned in all of this, she doesn’t want to go she wants a liberal arts education. She had put down a dorm deposit, she needs to request that so she can put it down somewhere else. That decision has been made. And with her current acceptance letters, she will pay less at those schools than she will at her state school.

And if she releases the scholarships before January, then they can go to another student,. in particular the leadership one.

She needs to withdraw from another scholarship that she was in the running for. I don’t know if she would’ve gotten it or not, it was $2500.

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I touched on the Pell Grant aspect. The other thing I don’t know is if SO doesn’t admit as many pell grant eligible students as Knox or if fewer Pell Grant eligible students apply?

100% demonstrated need does not always mean need blind.

Some of these questions are new questions for me. It’s all a bit unfamiliar. But fewer Pell Grant students means less diversity.

There’s definitely a give-and-take.

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I get what you’re doing. Because the GC wouldn’t be available you had to either pull the trigger now or let the ED option go. You figured she could always withdraw her ED application just before the deadline.

In my mind here’s the pickle you’ve gotten yourself into. Your daughter can do what I and many others here feel is in her best interest and withdraw the ED application to St. Olaf. At the same time by doing so you’d be signaling St. Olaf that they’re no longer her first choice. It’s not a deal breaker, and many kids here have been admitted to schools in the RD round after withdrawing ED, but it could be a tie breaker in the RD round.

Psychologically it’s tougher for a student to get up the energy to apply to additional schools after applying ED. She’s focusing on one school, a school she hasn’t had a chance to visit and wasn’t even considering a couple of weeks ago. Although I understand you can’t afford to have her visit multiple schools in advance of applying she might have been able to do so after acceptance are out and her options have been narrowed, particularly since some schools are able to give high need students funds to come on admitted student days.

You may have read elsewhere on CC that the ED bump is often not the great advantage it would appear to be from acceptance rates alone. The high ED admit rate is often due to who is applying ED, with a great deal of the pool being made up of recruited athletes and legacies, and to a lesser extent development admits. These categories of applicants are admitted at extremely high rates compared to the general applicant pool. 27% of the current freshman class at St. Olaf is made up of legacies. That quite a high percentage.

Knox and St. Olaf may meet full need, but remember that full need offers are not all equal. For instance at a school like Colby all of her financial aid would be in the form of grants. That means that she’d come out of college owing almost $24,000 less than she would with Knox’s offer. Not being able to compare final offers side by side also means she can’t look at and negotiate for a number of smaller sources of funding. To wit, which schools offer vacation housing so if she decided to stay at school (perhaps to work a job) over spring break she would be able to live in the dorms for free and which colleges close down making that impossible? Which schools have extra travel funds for students with high need? Which offer guaranteed paid summer internships? How much is the student expected to cover with work-study? How much does each school factor into the FA offer for miscellaneous expenses? St. Olaf includes $1,900 in their offer for books and personal expenses. Knox seems only to cover less than $800 in fees, with nothing for travel, books or personal expenses. Bates College, a test-optional school, says, “When determining financial aid eligibility, we estimate costs of $2,150 to $3,050 for books, personal and travel expenses.” A thousand more a year might make it more affordable to travel out of area than to stay in. In the end it’s very possible St. Olaf would give her the best aid, but you’ll never know that if she applies ED.

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I think it would be wise, not to submit ED2 until you get the ACT score. Didn’t you say the ED app is not due until Jan 8?. If so, no reason to rush. A 26, is in range for SO, but it is at the low end of the range. Don’t send that score, if you don’t have to. After the disappointment with Grinnell, it would be prudent to put her app in the best possible light, and using a higher score would do so. Some posters advised to wait and do ED2 at a Grinnell vs ED, so you would have the benefit of a possible higher score. That was sound advice. Don’t overlook some of the very good advice coming from these replies.

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@Grinnellhopeful St olaf has a January term that begins on 1/3 so you may have an opportunity to visit before the ED2 deadline if you can swing it. There would be students on campus and classes in session. Also check out the conversations program. I believe there is one focused on Asian studies. Hoping for the best outcome for your daughter.

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@Grinnellhopeful I’m not sure you’re recognizing how solid the advice is to pull the ED to St Olaf. The posters who are making that argument are very well regarded members with a lot of experience. I, too, agree that applying anywhere ED without having been on campus is a big mistake. No matter what a student’s financial constraints, one should never commit to a school early that they haven’t visited with kids on campus. Besides the obvious reason to compare financial packages, you haven’t the slightest idea if your D will feel at home there. We live in an affluent Chicago suburb and our high school sends kids to St Olaf every year. They feel like they fit and love it. We haven’t visited and I don’t want to give you the wrong impression but, if these kids I know “fit” at St Olaf, then it’s possible that your daughter may not feel as comfortable there. Even if my impression of the student body at OS is off, you’ll never know if you haven’t visited!

We are in a completely different situation being a full pay family who doesn’t want to pay full tuition so is shopping for merit. We will not be using ED next year for our S19. Maybe you’ve got the impression that everyone does ED to be strategic for admission. That’s not true. It’s ok to take a pass on ED.

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Great point, @homerdog . My S19 wants to stay within two hours of home. As such, we are able to visit each school on the list. Living in PA means having a lot of schools around. That said, we will most likely be full pay or close to it. So we are targeting in-state options and private schools that offer merit. S19 will not apply ED to any school. Financially and strategically, it is simply not a good idea for us. Because we can’t commit without knowing exactly what the costs are going to be. And it is in our S19’s best interest to review all acceptance offers, go on any additional visits he’d like to make, and make a fully informed decision.

ED is not always the best strategic choice. It is my feeling that in your D’s case @Grinnellhopeful , the best strategy would be to gather all acceptance offers (she already has some great options), do some visits, then make a decision. Doing ED on a school she’s never seen in person might result in having only one option instead of many. Something to consider while there is still time to withdraw.

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The decision to apply ED2 to St Olaf’s now, before visiting at all, appears to be driven by the need to get counselor form completed before staff is unavailable over winter break, as it could not be completed in time after break. I understand that decision to submit now and, if something happens over the next 2 1/2 weeks that warrants changing to RD, then that can be done. Those variables could include a strong, doable financial aid package from Knox coming through or higher ACT scores that put the OP’s daughter on more solid ground for St Olaf’s for acceptance at RD round. The OP’s daughter seems to be talking by phone with admissions officers at the schools, and they seem to understand the financial and other constraints on this family. If the OP’s daughter determined that her app needed to switch back to RD, I don’t think St Olaf is going to hold that against her, as they seem to recognize there are a number of unusual factors at play in this application.

I also understand the perspective that, at a certain point, as long as a school meets an appropriate set of criteria for a student and family, then the decision can come down to finances. It is a luxury to wonder what if the scores increase enough to add other schools to the mix, when St Olaf or another school checks enough of the boxes. Ease of travel and accessibility matters to this family, which means Maine and other east coast locations requiring connecting flights – even if covered within financial aid package – may be an emotional disincentive. The goal for this family has been to find an affordable, quality LAC, since the state school option is not a great fit. A trip to St Olaf over break, especially if there are some students on campus starting Jan 3, should help the OP’s daughter know whether this is a comfortable choice. After visiting 15 LACs with my kid, I know he could have been happy at most of them, because the list already reflected his priorities. Grinnell, St Olaf and Knox are similar types of schools to each other – this is not a list which has, for example, Washington & Lee, Bard, and Swarthmore on it – schools which are very distinctive and different from each other – so that you’d worry how could a kid who likes one be happy at the others. I’m a worrier by nature, and I worried about the OP’s focus on Grinnell to the exclusion of other possibilities, but this seems like a reasonable approach to me.

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An ACT of 26 is the 25th percentile at St. Olaf. GPA does not offset ACT scores. It doesn’t work that way. St. Olaf is a reach for a student with a 26 and especially one who needs so much aid. Why would they give her so much money when she’s not a top candidate? I think OP needs to pull the app and wait for new ACT score for sure.

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I also agree with staying away from any ED application to St. Olaf for a few reasons: First, I visited a number of LACs with my D (different ones from your list) and can unequivocally say that each seems to have its own personality or vibe. To commit to a LAC sight unseen is not wise. Second, and more importantly, it is disingenuous at best to put in an ED application to a school with the idea that it can be withdrawn if something better comes up. ED is a firm commitment not an admissions ploy or any sort of a game and should not be taken lightly.

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I’m with @Midwestmomofboys

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Since we didn’t look hard at St Olaf for my kid, I just checked the Common Data Set and was interested to see a few things. GPA, rigor and essay are listed as Very Important; class rank, test scores and recs are Important. Entering class was 67% white – which is more diverse than I realized (since a number of LACs are more in the 75% range). ACT score 25-75% range is 25-31 so a 26 is just above that 25% range, and OP’s daughter got that score without accommodations so the new score is reasonably expected to be higher. ED acceptance rate (combined ED1 and ED2) is 80%. ED2 decision is made by Feb 1.

OP’s high school GC has never used the Common App before, and college-bound students go to state options, not LACs. The learning curve for LAC admissions has been huge for this family, supported in large part by the many experienced voices on CC.

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As for diversity - MN is a state that elected Jesse Ventura, Al Franken and Michelle Bachman. That alone, means there is a lot of diversity of thought! lol

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@Grinnellhopeful - I am so glad to see your D has had some very good news! Congrats! I want to just mention a quick note. For my super musical but not looking for a conservatory- highly interested in a small LAC daughter-St Olaf was on paper a fantastic fit. We had high hopes for it. We even met up with another student where we live who was happily attending. We set up a visit. As a parent I loved the school. My D not so much. Even with the music facilities which are mind bogglingly great, a professor pulling her aside after class for a chat, students in class including her in the conversation, beautiful dorms and campus and very good food…the school just did not resonate with my daughter. as a parent I couldn’t imagine a school better suited to her musical and academic interests. So I am just encouraging you to be cautious with your ED2 choice. Just so you know this mom on the West Coast is really rooting for your D as I think most of the people on this thread are. Some really good advice here!

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As long as the OP is confident that she can pull the ED application and switch to RD, she and her daughter should be fine. As an earlier poster noted, this might hurt the student’s chances during the RD round, but maybe not. Also, even though it is definitely preferable to visit schools, the OP has stated–rightly so, I think–that her daughter will attend the college that offers the best FA package. Thus, there are worse fates than being accepted to St. Olaf ED and having full need met! Her daughter can adapt. Yes, fit is important, and I wish that more students would choose schools based on fit, not ranking or perceived prestige, but at the same time a school would have to be a truly terrible fit to necessitate a transfer (the student is badly not fitting in; the college does not have the classes/major that she/he wants). As I posted earlier, there is no such thing as a perfect school, and even though I visited Knox and was amazed by that visit, I needed a full term to adjust once I arrived on campus. It took me one trimester to find my place, find my friends, and from there on I had a great time! I was also accepted at Beloit, and I’m positive I could have gone there and had an amazing time as well.

OP, do understand what others have been saying. Perhaps they could have said so more politely (you are new to the process, and I do think that it is truly impressive how much you have absorbed in just a month), but they are worried that your daughter might be bound for St. Olaf (again, that’s not a terrible outcome!). Since St. Olaf is a meet-full-need school, you won’t have any wiggle room to declare that their FA package is not sufficient because the ED language only allows a student to get out of ED if the FA package makes it impossible for the student to attend that school. Obviously, if St. Olaf meets full need, their package will, by definition, make it possible for your daughter to attend.

Again, I think you know this, and if you know with certainty that you can change the ED application to RD, than that’s okay.

This is an exciting but hectic time. Hang in there and trust that the end result will be your daughter attending a terrific school that meets her academic and financial needs.

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@Hapworth but St Olaf meeting need may do so with loans. The OP may find she gets a better package with fewer loans and more grants from another school. If she stays ED, she will never know.

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I don’t think a student has just cause for getting out of an ED agreement if they are expected to take their federal loans, do work study, and work for pay in the summer.