Our daughter is a freshman at Beloit and she absolutely loves it there. PM me if you want to know more.
You may find this site useful. It allows you to look at the average student debt with which students graduate for any school.
https://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data
I like to look at the % of Pell-eligilble students and the percentage of students who graduated with debt as well as the debt upon graduation because it tells you what percentage of the class had high need. For instance, if you compare Amherst with BU you’ll find that Amherst had a higher % of Pell students (23%) but a lower debt figure ($18,662) than BU (13% Pell but a whopping $41,098 in debt upon graduation.)
Furthermore, only 22% of Pell grant recipients at Amherst had debt, mening that some Pell recipients graduated debt-free.
I know these are not schools on your list. I just thought this was a nice clear example of the way these stats can be used.
Ok just for fun and I ran Knox on the NPC with current info. Not adding numbers I discussed with admissions. Nor adding any points to her current ACT score. I have a net price of approx the same thing you did…BUT the merit aid is lower than what admissions told me they would offer. Again, they have my FA forms and even tax returns. So, sometimes the net price is negotiable. Sometimes it isn’t. I’m not holding my breath until I have something in writing. She did say that she would try to get something out to me next week, I don’t know why it wouldn’t be an admission with exactly what we talked about but I’m gun shy.
However that net price that shows on the net price calculator is almost identical to her net price at KSU with her scholarships. They have less wiggle room for scholarships at the state school.
At the end of the day would you choose a state school with a graduation rate in the 50 percentile or a private LAC with a graduation rate of 80% for exactly the same cost?
And I would be concerned that because it doesn’t fit at KSU she would ultimately transfer or leave.
I can’t get St. Olaf to work, the NPC is rather glitchy tonight.
You may have hit the nail on the head with Knox. 65% admin rate, 75% when you go EA. 50% of the students have ACTs in the 24-29 range. Standardized tests are not a highly weighted factor in their admin process. Since you haven’t visited you may want to do some research regarding their facilities and how they invest in the college and the students. They have an extremely low endowment which will impact how they invest in their programs such as study abroad. I would say good luck but it sounds like you will have some very positive news next week.
deleted
I’m kind of confused about your references to merit aid. Most of these schools won’t stack merit on top of need based aid. Since your need is $50-$60K per year, you are very unlikely to see any benefit from merit aid at these schools.
Also… admissions wants your kid to apply no matter what. I would not make any assumptions based on what they say over the phone about chances, or even about aid as sure.
@intparent I’m not going to count on anything until I have an acceptance letter and FA package in hand.
Each schools handles things a little differently. As we get to less selective schools they are stacking merit aid for GPA and yes, ever her current ACT score on top of her Pell Grant.
There are other grants depending on the state and institution. Maybe that’s the difference, I’m thinking from a standpoint of FASFA only schools that separate merit and Pell?
But I do find that what we see on the NPC is not always as bad as it appears.
I like what Sue said when she was looking at the average debt amount. Schools can get creative. But you’re absolutely right you cannot count on anything until you see it on paper.
I’m not going to immediately dismiss a school without seeing what it looks like after they have all of our documents.
And if the school is offering to pay for us to come visit, I’m thinking it’s a good sign and it’s also a sign that they understand I can’t afford to do it. If I can’t afford a plane ticket or a train ticket I can’t afford $16,000 a year. I don’t think we can borrow that much. The amount goes up incrementally every year, but the amount you can borrow as a freshman is relatively low.
@cornellian88 I’ve thought we would have good news before. I’m cautiously optimistic. It is hard to think about all the benefits she would’ve had if she had been accepted to Grinnell. It would have been life changing. But that doesn’t mean it won’t be a good experience elsewhere.
There will always be a pang that she didn’t make the cut at such a beloved school. But, we have to move forward, I can’t dwell on it or she will.
There are a few more schools that are comparable to Grinnell in terms of endowment. That is what I’m trying to help her focus on now. Where do we try for ED2? There are some excellent choices. I think we are going to have to make that decision after the 19th when we see her new scores. If she gets a 32, that changes things.
If she gets a 30 I don’t know if that really changes anything or not. We will have to see. Right now I think it will just be empowering for her to see that she has options. And she’s really drawn to Knox. I’m trying to get her to look at St. Olaf but I keep finding her on the Knox website.
Ultimately, it’s her decision. I just want her to be happy and to feel comfortable wherever she goes. I also want her self esteem intact. This is a challenging time of transition for all kids, to have them feeling beat down from the college admissions process can’t help.
So, that’s what I need to focus on early decision round two. Everyone knows that there are some schools that you have considerably higher chance of getting accepted in early decision. We should probably try for a reach.
And a reach with a healthy endowment.
She also needs to submit some audition pieces per individual schools requirements at the schools that have a strong choir program. I’ve seen some pretty healthy choir scholarships floating around a few schools on this list.
@Sue22 The one limitation to that report that bothers me is factoring in Parent Plus loans. At both big Universities in my state parents are forced into the the bulk of the debt…I am an example of that with my 24 year old son. His Freshman year I had to borrow over 10,000 he borrowed 2500,I think? I don’t remember but it was relatively low for him.
I often feel like it is deliberately misleading when schools advertise that their graduates have an average loan amount of $20,000 for example.
That doesn’t really imply that the cost of the institution is low.
I am finding that most of the private LACs don’t differentiate between parent debt and student debt. And most don’t include a plus loan in the FA package. A few do…but mostly not.
At the end of the day if we can get the amount down to what we would be spending at our state school after pell and scholarship, it’s a no brainer.
And even though the sticker price might be more it often costs less bottom line.
I might look at some less well known schools. I personally loved Truman State for my daughter although she decided it was too rural, and they give great aid. I would also look hard at Cornell College in Iowa, Gustavus Adolphus in Minnesota, Augsburg in Minnesota, Viterbo or Carroll in Wisconsin, Augustana in South Dakota. I think Beloit and Knox and Earlham would be great options, but there are actually many more choices.
If she was rejected from Grinnell, I would expect a rejection from Carleton, Macalester and Bates. She could apply of course, but my kid might not want to have more bad news.
I would take a chance on Bates. Bates receives relatively few applications from the Midwest, with only 6% of students from the region. They get a ton of applications from the Northeast, where the school has a fair amount of cachet, meaning they reject a lot of kids from New England and New York, driving down the admit rate. My impression is that they would love to get an application from a Kansas Scholar. Bates is also test-optional, so if her scores do not rise as expected it could still be a strong option for a high-GPA, less stellar test score kid like the OP’s. Bates does have ED2, but have others have noted, applying ED probably doesn’t make sense if a student doesn’t have an absolute favorite and/or if they need to compare financial aid offers. Also note that some of the schools that are not need-blind admit 80-90 percent of the class before looking at the FA budget. That means if your student is considered to be among that top 80-90 percent they’ll be admitted need-blind.
@Grinnellhopeful, I definitely get your point. Unfortunately the CDS, from which almost all information is pulled, is voluntary and some schools have been known to try to game the system. It’s frustrating. As you note, the more competitive LACs tend to be very expensive but they also give good need-based aid. I always wonder why the point of admitting a student is if you’re not going to give them the funds they need to attend and stay in a school for 4 years.
@Grinnellhopeful Many of these have been mentioned before but I will pile on. When will her ACT come back? The reason that I ask is that if it won’t be in time for EDII consideration, it it might be better to go RD for second choice if a 30+ score is predicted.
A 30+ would place her in a different category than a 26.
My D’s preferences for were quite similar to your daughters (quirky/nerdy). She applied to Mac, Oberlin, St. Olaf, College of Wooster, and Dickinson. She also considered Kenyon, Lawrence, Beloit, Earlham, Grinnell, Denison, and Muhlenberg but ended up not applying because she was looking for specific curricular strengths. She ended up at Oberlin and is very happy there. In descending order of preference thereafter were Mac, St. Olaf, Wooster, and Dickinson. Personally, I really liked St. Olaf - their admissions staff was incredibly warm and welcoming and the campus is charming, as is the neighboring small downtown. We know a number of kids that have gone there, both religious and non-religious, and all have had a positive experience.
You also might consider Centre College (Danville KY) or Hendrix (AR)
Bates and Wesleyan are test optional but might be too far away. They are said to be generous with need-based aid and the student vibe would check her boxes. Not easy admits, but maybe worth a try. Bates is relatively accessible through Portland. Coming from KS might provide a small boost as mentioned ˆ
I’m sorry your daughter didn’t get admitted to Grinnell.
Coming back to say, Knox really is a hidden gem, and its finances are improving year by year. It had definitely hit a slump, but the past 5-10 years, particularly with current President, has seen finances, including alumni giving, improve significantly. The college is investing heavily in resources and infrastructure, with a gorgeous Main Hall where Admissions and other offices are, plus a beautiful new fine arts building, and renovations to the performing arts building. It tends to attract a B+ish kind of student, but reaches out to higher performing kids to offer them the moon and back – and it follows through. I had a law student who went to Knox because of the merit – she was my top student in law school and then transferred to a top 5 law school because she was that good. Knox makes phenomenal opportunities available to students, and, of all the LAC classes my kid attended, from Grinnell to Oberlin to Bates, the most energized and engaged class was at Knox.
The size and health of a college’s endowment will affect the ability of a 100% need based student to be admitted and the assurance that it will be able to meet that obligation for the full 4-years. Not the only consideration, but an important one.
Not sure if you have seen this list of automatic-for-stats full tuition and full ride scholarships:
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/21015126/#Comment_21015126
She probably needs a full ride or close to it; you and she may want to see if any of the colleges that offers such a scholarship for her stats is suitable.
@Grinnellhopeful - you say you are cautious because you were expecting good news before and didn’t get it, but the difference this time, is that Knox appears to be a match for your D, while Grinnell was a far reach. It’s always a good idea to temper expectations, but this is a totally different situation and your D has an excellent chance of good news this time.
Knox is still a reach, because its net price calculator indicates an unaffordable net price for a maximum financial aid situation ($16,315). Basically, the OP is depending on the verbal conversations with the financial aid office turning into an actual preferentially-packaged financial aid offer that is significantly better than what Knox would ordinarily offer in a maximum financial aid situation.
I.e. while Knox may not be a reach for admission, it is a reach for affordability.
My daughter is looking for a very similar vibe in a school (“She wants a challenging curriculum, diverse population, quirky, nerdy, student body”). My D18 is likely a STEM major with a serious interest in Anthropology too. Grinnell is in her top three (has applied RD). I have to tell you how much both my daughter and I liked Beloit. I know you will not have a chance to visit, but we were very impressed after our visit there. My D18 is fairly high stats and was accepted EA there, but does not consider it a place where she will be unable to find intellectual equals. To the contrary, it really seems to be a place that draws students like her.
She also really liked Macalester - was surprised at how much she liked it after visiting. Colorado College also intrigued us, but she decided that the block class plan was less than ideal for her. But for another student it could be a wonderful place. I thought she would like Dickinson but it wasn’t for her (I liked it, though). She is still considering sending in applications to Oberlin, Kenyon and Denison although we haven’t been able to visit. But just wanted to say that D18 is looking for similar attributes in a small LAC and really liked both Macalester and Beloit. She applied ED to a northeastern SLAC, but if she doesn’t get in there will definitely be applying to Macalester, and seriously considering Beloit.
I am throwing out two more ideas that I don’t think have been mentioned. Travel expenses may be too much, however.
St. John’s College in MD
Agnes Scott in Decatur, GA (COA is in low 50s!)
My D just applied to many of the above-mentioned schools (and has gotten into all with outstanding merit). In 2012, my S applied to similar schools and ended up at Oberlin (a super reach for OP’s D at this time).
What @wisteria100 said.
@Grinnellhopeful I remember also that upthread you said something (sorry, paraphrasing) that you were concerned you’d misread the Grinnell AO’s enthusiasm and support. My hunch is that you did NOT misread their support for your daughter’s application, but it’s one thing to have an AO who’s an advocate for your kid’s case, but quite another for the application to get through committee. The competition is stuff, and while the AO may have advocated for her, the may have just made a hard numbers decision … taking a kid with higher stats, filling a different slot, etc. There’s also the brutal reality that a near full-need kid may get closer scrutiny unless the school is truly need-blind. (Can’t speak for Grinnell, which tends to be generous – just something to bear in mind when strategizing.)
At a school where the competition to enter is less intense (education and peer level still excellent, but maybe your kid is closer to the top), a positive read from an AO will pull more weight.
You probably don’t have time right now to take on a book-length exposition on college applications, but I highly recommend The Gatekeepers by Jacques Steinberg for insight into the admissions process for small, ‘holistically’ selective schools. It’s a great read.
For a two-minute snapshot of what committee work looks like, google “College Admissions: Inside the Decision Room” https:// www.youtube.com/ watch?v=Y-OLlJUXwKU