I’m looking for help finding a school good in both Comp Sci and Music to transfer to. I’ve tried googling, but I’m not really sure how best to find the information I need; reputation and ranking in both subjects, practicality/possibility of doing both and graduating on time, and location. Currently, I’m enrolled at the University of Rochester as a Sophomore doing a double major in Comp Sci and Music, but due to the stressful academic environment and relatively dreary weather/city, I’m hoping to transfer somewhere I could feel happier. However, I’m having trouble finding a school good in both computer science and music where that double major is also practical. Rochester is good due to its affiliation with Eastman, so even though I’m not enrolled in a very demanding and performance-centric school, I still have access to many high quality composition classes at Eastman. That way I can still graduate with a general degree in music from the main campus, but supplement it with classes from Eastman, all while also completing the Comp Sci curriculum. Coupled with Rochester’s open curriculum, this allows me to focus intensely and equally on music and computer science, which I fear wouldn’t be possible at many other schools.
Essentially, I’m looking for a school with similar academic flexibility and opportunity to Rochester, but ideally situated somewhere warmer or more lively. Any suggestions would be appreciated; I honestly don’t even fully know where or how to start looking. Also, please let me know if I should provide any more information.
What do you mean by “stressful academic environment”?
You realize you have almost a perfect situation, academically, now, right? A decent computer science department, a music department housed in the same college, open curriculum, and a world-class music conservatory that’s connected to your university and informal enough so you can take classes there.
Most of the places that pop into mind where you maybe could get the same mix also have crappy weather and a sometimes stressful academic environment, and many aren’t places where you can just toss in a transfer application and wait for your acceptance letter. Places like Johns Hopkins, Yale, University of Chicago, MIT, Harvard. Plus, what you really need is a practical sense of what the music programs are like for students that aren’t full-time musicians.
Here’s a thought: I think most state flagships are going to have decent (or better than decent) computer science programs, and music programs, too. Often they will be housed in different schools or colleges, and it may be tough to be in both, but some places that won’t be a problem. Why don’t you start looking at a few of them – read the catalogs carefully, call the departments, see if you can find students online to ask questions? Would you consider a place like Indiana, winter and all? It has first-rate music, although I don’t know how open it is to non-performance double majors. Or just check out the music programs at places like Texas (Austin) and Arizona or Arizona State. UCLA and USC. Any University of California campus, really, is likely to have decent programs in both CS and music, although I don’t know if out-of-staters can transfer in that easily.
Tulane? No idea what its CS program is like, but there’s got to be a good way to study music in New Orleans. And I think it would give you a whole different kind of crappy weather, and a very different academic stress environment.
You will find most of the top schools for both of your majors in the cold or gloomy north. You need to decide your priorities- academics or environment. You also likely will lose credits with any transfer. Consider transfer deadlines as well (soon for fall). Plus you likely need 60 credits at your new school and transferring after more than two years isn’t always allowed.
There is no ideal campus. You want the same academics in both CS and music plus the same flexibility. There is a reason you chose Rochester to begin with. Which is more important to you- the CS or the music? You can’t get them both as you now have it where you are.
Every CS program will require higher level math and CS courses for the major- do you feel you can handle those? If you’re stressed by your required courses where you are how do you think being new and going to a school equal to or better in CS will be?
You complain about the weather- which is more important- two years in your program or getting less than you want elsewhere? There are hassles in transferring which can increase stress levels. Being in a totally new city, school, state where you know nothing about how things work and know nobody- is it worth it?
What are your post college goals? Is the music degree necessary for them?
So you are stressed out. Bad weather is ideal for studying since the weather is not a distraction. Do you have a great gpa? You need at least a 3.0 and often much higher to get into CS programs at many good schools. If you are having trouble handling your present workload how do you think you can handle an equal load plus all of the above transfer issues?
Perhaps you should rethink your double major. Reduce the stress by choosing CS only for future job opportunities and take music courses as they fit well into your schedule.
There’s good comp sci at a bunch of UCs. Texas is strong too. All probably hard to get into from out of state as a transfer and pricey as well. Rice would be good. But I think it may be a case of the grass looking greener elsewhere.
My roommate at carnegie mellon was a double major in math and music. I don’t know anything about their music program, but the CS program is excellent. However you said you’re stressed academically, and carnegie mellon will almost certainly not lower your level of academic stress.
I immediately thought of St Olaf. Great for CS, incredible for music, wholesome/healthy/laid back students.
^^^Ditto for St Olaf. It’s a fantastic school and I wish my son had considered it. But it has some pretty harsh weather.
Do you have to have a dual degree? I know that’s a common trend now, but is there any reason why music can’t just be something you love? You don’t need a degree in music to prove your prowess in it.
Furman University in Greenville SC may have what you’re looking for. Keith Lockhart is an alum.
Take a look at the University of Denver.
Tulane was suggested above. They recently reestablished their CS department after eliminating it in the aftermath of Katrina. IMO, they need a few more years of rebuilding before Tulane will be a good choice for a CS major.
Thank you so much for the all the responses. I’ll be sure to research all of the suggested schools, and see if I can branch out from there, as well.
Thank you also for the comments about how worthwhile transferring might be at all; it’s definitely something I need to think about. I want to transfer because I’m really not happy at Rochester, but it might also be tough to not only find a different school, but succeed there while catching up on all the lost credits from the transfer.
As for why specifically I’m not enjoying Rochester very much, it’s the combination of the academic environment and the weather/city. So far, I’ve found the academics to be very high stakes, and difficult to really know how exactly you’re doing. For instance, on my latest math final exam, it was far more difficult than anyone had predicted. Thus, everyone did very poorly, but because of the curve, most students did fine in the final grade. Which is okay, but stressful, since it takes a while to know what your final grade actually is. Many times, I find students don’t actually have a very good idea at all of how they did coming out of an exam. The general atmosphere seems to be “try as absolutely hard as possible not to fail, and somehow you might come out of it with an A”. It might just be the classes I’m taking, or the people I’ve talked to, but it’s a very difficult and work-intensive environment. This on its own is honestly pretty manageable, and even something I expect from a good university, but it’s tough when paired with Rochester’s location. The city is definitely one of the more depressing places I’ve been for a significant time. Many cities have vivacity to them, or at least more than exactly one place to eat open past 8:30 pm. The city itself, regardless of weather, just seems downtrodden to me. And then the weather is very hostile. It’s quite cold, but the biggest problem is wind and the rain/snow. It’s very rarely sunny, and the continual darkness can really get to me after a while. I feel that if I were somewhere warmer, or even somewhere just less windy and rainy/snowy, I would feel a lot happier. It’s tough to work very hard day after day when you’re already feeling somewhat unhappy as a baseline.
Still, I could definitely learn to adapt to it. Ideally I would rather not, but given many of the responses, it sounds like transferring could be more trouble than it’s worth, and nothing is ever ideal anyways. I’ll research some of the suggestions, and keep searching for other schools for a while, but I’ll devote more time to considering how worthwhile transferring might actually be, too.
Finally, as for the choice for a double major in CS and music, it’s not very defensible. Given the opportunity in CS and lack thereof in music, I’ll very likely end up doing CS as a career. That said, some part of me can’t stand the idea of “giving up” on music as a career, and wants to wait until the very last practical moment to really let go of that future. If I do go into music, it would probably be as film score writer, but that isn’t a very easy field to get into at all. Again, it’s probably not a very realistic thing to be holding on to. Still, if possible, I’d like to hold onto it for as long as I can.
We’re just coming to the end of a pretty extensive college search in which my son was looking for these two exact strengths. He had a couple other criteria that might not be relevant to you, the most significant of which being he wants to attend a liberal arts college. He’s also not looking much at super-selective schools, so places like Vassar and Wesleyan that might otherwise meet his criteria were not given much consideration. Anyway, I think he’ll very probably end up at one of the following three schools:
St. Olaf (excellent in music, only fair in CS as far as we can tell. Cold!)
U. of Puget Sound (pretty strong in both music and CS. Warmer, but cloudy and damp in the winter)
Trinity U in TX (excellent in CS, music only fair. Warm! Plus, San Antonio is a genuinely hopping city)
All three of these schools offer a Bachelor in Music, which is pretty rare for LACs. He’s focused on performance, so I can’t comment on the composing opportunities at these schools, but his desire to double major and not have to go whole hog in either direction is very similar to your own. I also think that all of the above schools would probably have a more laid-back feel than UR, and there will almost certainly be more focus on undergraduate teaching and providing support to students, because that’s kind of what LACs are all about (and those are three very good LACs). Anyway, good luck!
Also, @MYOS1634, I’ve seen you tout St. Olaf as being terrific for CS in a few places and I haven’t been entirely convinced based on my research. Things that worry me:
- It appears that they only have 3 true CS faculty that teach virtually all their CS courses. That’s not a large number for a school of 3000. By contrast, for instance, UPS has 5 and Trinity has 8.
- Their upper level course offerings don’t appear to be particularly broad (probably a direct consequence of pt. 1)
- They have very few sections of their intro classes, and don’t appear to have separate intro tracks for majors and non-majors. Those classes must be enormous. Again, probably goes back to pt. 1
Anyway, can you elaborate on why you’re so sanguine about CS at St. Olaf?
I hope you also post on the excellent music forum here. There are many intersections between music (composing) and computer science these days. If you can continue on the path you are on, you may find some interesting paths to follow. Check out Brown’s MEME program (oops they call it something else now I think), Dartmouth’s Digital Arts MA, and UCSD’s integrative studies just for some examples.
There are many ways to keep music in your life of course, but I think it’s great you are trying to hold onto it as long as you can. The thing is, for a non-conservatory student, you are in an unusually good position with Eastman’s openness to you. If you did transfer, you might want to stay away from schools that have conservatories/music schools. There are exceptions (look at Bard maybe) but oftentimes doing music in a BA program at a school that offers a BM can mean fewer opportunities to study with teachers or have performances.
Have you considered a double degree as opposed to double major? With that, you could do a BA or BS and BM ( or at Harvard, MM at NEC). Bard, Oberlin, Lawrence, Michigan, Tufts, Harvard, Johns Hopkins/Peabody and others are often mentioned. For double major, schools like Brown or Amherst have free choice of classes w/out prerequisites. State schools are a possibility too.
One problem with all this though is that both music and computer science are sequential majors with foundational courses. Another school might have a different sequence and the courses might be a little different so you might not end up with the same foundation as others. You can check this out on websites and with schools. Many students, for instance, prefer to start theory sequences at the beginning at their school, even if they did wonderfully on the placement exam, because each school is different in the way they teach it. Ditto with physics: some who get 5’s on AP still want to take the intro at their specific school.
Is there anything at all you can do to make Rochester appeal more?
You seem intelligent and articulate. Chances are you will not be happy at a school where peers are not as intelligent or articulate. I can’t say that for sure of course, but it is a possibility. Schools with talented peers may seem stressful, but there are ways to handle that by changing your own attitude. Maybe try not to focus so much on grades. I know there are practical reasons to focus on them, but still, try to just learn the stuff and do your best and forget about the rest. And have some fun too.
You may not like this, but since you keep mentioning weather, is it possible that you suffer a little seasonal affective disorder? You can buy a light for that 
If there is any chance at all that you have a little seasonal depression, a low dose SSRI can help too. People may jump on me for that, but one of mine got depressed in the winter and it took us too many years to address it with very low dose of a med. Her entire life turned around.
Clearly, it makes the most sense to stay there. Really. If that is really difficult to contemplate, I do suggest counseling, a light, or consideration that you might be a little depressed. This happens to about 50% of all college students. The best thing a realization like that can accomplish is that you might stick with it and not head down a tangent in your life that you regret.
Thinking long term is hard when you are unhappy. Good luck!
p.s. One final thing: not sure what your financial aid situation is but you generally get better aid at the school you enrolled in as a freshman.
Following this thread with interest as my S’18 is also interested in CS and music. S’15 had Rochester as his second choice university (he applied to 15!) and was recommending it for his brother but the OP’s comments as well as those of another friend’s D are having me think that would not be a good environment for S’18. He really seems to like UMN-TC where is brother is now attending but they are planning to implement a 60% tuition hike so that may not be an option. We will likely take a look at Lawrence but it may be too small for S’18.
For S’15 we did consider the music offerings (more as an EC). Others we visited that had both and which we liked: DePauw (Greencastle ,IN), Butler (IN), IU (IN), Case Western Reserve, Boston University
@rayrick:
Most of it is direct experience then curiosity about what I heard.
First, I like how inclusive they are. Their intro course actually has 3 sections, each capped at 24. Section A seeks to attract Humanities/social science majors, with the idea all students, including those who think they’re not “made for CS” should have some CS literacy. They work on digital media, digital humanities, computing ethics, computing issues as well as programming. The second section is only offered in the Fall and is dedicated to the many premeds, it focuses on science applications. The last intro course is for would-be math and CS majors and presupposes AP Calc (or college calculus for the Spring section). All students have access to a workshop/lab where older majors can help. For the 121A or B sections, no experience is necessary nor expected. It makes for a very “friendly” CS, which keeps this essential but misunderstood/intimidating subject open to students who otherwise wouldn’t feel comfortable taking those classes, including women and minorities. (If you read CS education research, you’ll see that those two groups are more rarely involved in CS at the secondary level, are less likely to pursue it on their own, and even when introduced to it in school, if in pairs or small groups around 1 computer, tend to be “on the side, looking in” rather than “doing”, unless the teacher makes specific efforts to prevent this from happening. In order to diversify who our CS majors are, this approach is important. Of course, at StOlaf, a lot of students overall are white, so it’d be anomalous if the URM students congregated in CS, but the principle is the right one.) I also like their “hands-on” approach and the idea you can take just that class and have something that helps you understand the world better, not just a set of skills completed in preparation for further classes. They also have a 2-class module system (Intro + Software development) for those who think CS s a key tool today but don’t have space in their schedule for a full major/minor. I find their beginning sequence extremely well thought out.
I find that forethought in getting all students interested in CS regardless of self confidence, preparation, or time commitment, good for freshmen in terms of the liberal arts ethos and in terms of diversity of students enrolled, while not sacrificing depth of content. This is also good for students who have a strong previous background in CS to not see the subject as “weed out”, eliminating others, but as part of culture in general and as inclusive. Philosophically, I’m hoping this type of thinking will produce more leaders in the industry who know how to handle others different from them and how not to “act weed out” (which is a huge problem right now, especially in retaining nontraditional talent.)
Second, the basic sequence is 4 classes which can be taken freshman/sophomore Fall, including one that is apparently especially intensive (apparently equivalent to 6 credits in large universities where classes are typically 3 credits) which can be followed by the Chicago semester (with a beginning internship, a practical class, and 2 general ed classes), or students could spread the classes over 4 semesters on campus, or “start ahead” and take upper level classes Spring sophomore year - again, there’s space for various experiences and needs.
After this, like at most LACs, juniors and seniors would typically take 2 CS classes a semester.(The modified “typical schedule” when you have an intensive interterm, often called JTerm, is 4-1-4, ie., 4 classes a semester + 1 class during January, which for CS juniors/seniors is supposed to be an internship or a project)
Another aspect I find useful is that juniors and seniors will often have one-on-one tutorials/projects with a professor, typically on a subject of their choice - those would appear as 298 (independent study for juniors) and 398 (independent study for seniors). So they’d have one advanced CS class, one personal CS class, one “distribution requirement/core” class, and one elective each semester, plus an internship or research project in January.
I was under the impression there were 5 or 6 faculty but I don’t know this for sure since I never checked that. I agree that 3 is few since it’d mean only 9 CS classes per semester, and just checking http://www.stolaf.edu/sis/public-aclasslab.cfm to verify for this year, semester 2/CS presents indeed 3 professors with 3 classes each, plus one other professor (likely coming from another department), plus “staff” (which must mean adjuncts). This is indeed quite light. While I’ve not heard of that being a problem, I agree that from an outside perspective they should have one more full-time instructor and thus more classes on offer.
Finally, through direct experience, I know current students are all doing very well placement-wise. There’s a very dynamic career center and plenty of networking organized in the Twin Cities. Beside the Chicago internship opportunity, students can intern once a week (and have no trouble finding a placement - the Twin Cities are thriving.) One student I know was selected alongside one student from UCB, one student from UChicago, one student from UWashington, and one student from another university (I forgot which but along those lines in terms of selectivity), for an internship at a ‘nationally known’ company (not GAFAM :p, but very well-known among CS people.) Previous seniors all knew where they were going well before graduation (some recruited as early as November).
So, well thought-out pedagogy and philosophy + solid curriculum + practical applications + personalization + excellent outcomes = why I recommend the CS program, there.
But Jake, the original poster, will have already finished two years at Rochester so how would he fit into this curriculum as a junior? Just curious.
Rayrick, I am confused. If your son wants a BM, how is he doing a double major? The other major, which seems to be CS, would be a BA or BS. So isn’t that a double degree, not a double major?
@compmom: I have no idea, I assume that as a transfer Jake would start at the 200-level, but St Olaf is strong in music and their CS program looks good to me, which is why I’d recommended it in an earlier post (the long post above was answerig Rayrick who wondered why I find St Olaf a good choice for CS - I typically recommend it for CS/math, CS/music, etc.) Only Jake would know whether their proposed sequence would work for him.
@jake11235 : I do think you should stick it out at URochester, but
1° purchase a sunlight lamp against SAD
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/seasonal-affective-disorder/in-depth/seasonal-affective-disorder-treatment/art-20048298
2° See if you could study abroad Spring 2017 (as the gloomiest days are January-March)… or full year next year. Ask your adviser if there are good study abroad programs for CS majors. You’d probably need a direct enrollment program in an English-speaking country. See if Australia or New Zealand are available! 
Or, see if there are domestic (“study away”) exchange programs in sunnier places (California?) It’ll go very fast and you’ll find that you are happy to be returning “home” at URochester.
@compmom, he doesn’t actually want a BM. I was just viewing the presence of that option at a school as an indicator that they take their music fairly seriously.
@MYOS1634, thanks so much for such a complete rundown! I’d still love to see them hire another true CS prof or two, particularly given that they seem to have a fair number of majors so the interest is clearly there, but that info definitely ups my comfort level. St. Olaf is still very much in contention (provided he gets in!). Oh, and what’s the second A in GAFAM (assuming the first is Apple)? Amazon?