This seems to be a constant CC myth: that the Ivies/elites are filled with brilliant, studious students and that the lesser ranked or public universities are an intellectual wasteland. I can’t say anything about Wellesley or Cornell… but my daughter didn’t report a “host of intellectual peers” at Barnard. She was sometimes frustrated and disappointed because her school experience failed to live up to those expectations – but the main thing that distinguished the students in her elite surroundings from others was family wealth. Not that all of the students were wealthy – but the student bodies are weighted toward kids coming from families who are extremely well-off financially, and I’m sure that has only gotten worse over time as college cost continue to soar.
The academic quality of my d’s elite education was superb --coursework was very rigorous, and her profs were all extremely capable and engaged. So that falls under “quality of faculty” which I mentioned in another post. But fellow students…not so much. Bottom line, they were all a bunch of high achieving 18 year olds, but not much different than the high achieving 18 year olds who head off to their state u’s every year.
Again: put aside the prestige factors for now. Use that as a tie breaker later on, but not as a deciding criteria. But don’t buy into false assumptions about the quality of the student bodies. At least the lower ranked schools have the ability to attract star students with merit money. A huge and ever growing chunk of middle to upper (but not top) income students have been priced out of the market for the elite colleges – these kids have parents who are educated professionals but not investment bankers, their parents could afford $25K a year in tuition but not $60K, and they are the ones who are going to be snapping up offers to places like PItt Honors, no questions asked.
@calmom, my comment was in response to the OP’s apparent belief that his D’s intellectual peers at C and W are all cut throat competitors. He’s the one who seems to think that Pitt is a less challenging intellectual environment. I think that, given the stats kids need to get into Pitt’s Honors College, there is going to be a substantial peer cohort there. (I actually tried to get my kid to apply there.)
I didn’t get that sense at all from any of OP’s posts.
The big fish / small fish analogy doesn’t mean that that a parent doesn’t believe their child is capable of doing well in the environment of a mega-selective university – it just means that there is a difference in overall dynamic. A few years ago a CC parent’s pre-med DD chose between Yale with crummy need based aid or a full ride offer to Rhodes – she opted for Rhodes, and 2 years down the line she was a Goldwater Scholar. Could she have gotten the same honors at Yale? Possibly-- but she probably had a leg up as a top student in a school where she came in already “tagged” by the admissions committed as a possible contender for that sort of honor. The kid went on to Yale med school. (she’s probably graduated by now).
It’s an individual decision and depends a lot on the kid and their goals. That’s why I think the perceived prestige should be set aside while the kids look at other factors. They need to begin by focusing on the specifics they are paying for, in part because there really is no way to weigh intangibles. But the luster on the intangibles wears off pretty quickly – it is really, really special to be the only kid at one’s high school who has been admitted to Wellesley or Cornell… but that kind of special disappears the day the kid arrives on campus, surrounded by other students who were also admitted. There is some value to the prestige attached to a “name” degree … but that also is watered down by the fact that graduating seniors often find themselves competing for the same jobs or grad school placements as their fellow students. That is, my daughter didn’t find it especially helpful to have the “Columbia/Barnard” stamp of approval when looking for work in a city filed with graduates of Columbia, Barnard & NYU-- she got a terrific job coming out of school, but the agency she worked for also hired CUNY honors grads for similar positions… So I just think it’s a lot more important for the student to look at what their own individual experience is likely to be a the school – that’s not pro or con on either end.
A simple example: before my daughter started college, she thought she wanted to study linguistics. She was accepted to various UC’s, including UC Berkeley, as a linguistics major. But her greatest goal, above all else, was to go to school in New York City. Dumb goal, but that’s what it was. So off she went off to Barnard. But Barnard and Columbia do not have a linguistics department or a real linguistics major – there’s a back story to that, a rather sad history of department that imploded on its own in-fighting back in the 80’s – but these days, if you wan to study linguistics, you probably would do well to choose a different school. As it happened, my daughter signed up for a linguistics class at Columbia her first semester – which happened to be taught by a UC Berkeley professor who kind of co-taught at Columbia (the irony was not lost to me as I wrote out the $$ check to the bursar)… the course was excellent and convinced my daughter that she never, ever wanted to take another linguistics course in her life. So all is well, she probably would have changed majors at the UC’s anyway. But if linguistics had been a higher priority for her than the lure of the big city… then she would probably have done well to figure out whether or not the prestige school actually had a linguistics department before plunking down the deposit.
I just realized: my D2 graduated from Cornell, and D1 very nearly went to Wellesley; it was her “runner-up”.
For whatever that’s worth. I guess my kids would say OPs kids have good taste?
Not that this informs where OPs kids should go.My kids didn’t have OP’s kids’ other options. D1 did have a free ride offer, but she would not have been happy there. And everyone’s circumstances are not identical.
I am just not convinced that Richmond will not have enough quality students to make for an excellent education. There may well be students like those Blossom mentions, but it is not a low-ranked school. As college gets more expensive, more kids are opting for less expensive options. Certainly, W may open a few more doors but $200K is a lot of money (2 kids times $100K each). And IR majors typically need grad school, which is not usually funded.
What kind of student is Kid#2? What was her high school like? Was it highly competitive or was she one of the few super star students? Does she have friends that run the gamut of types, or is she happiest only with super smart, intellectually challenging students? What did she think of Fordham? Or Pitt as well?
What is UB?
I understand what Blossom is saying, but I don’t think you are wrong to consider the money. It is hard when you sort of can afford it, but would be very hard with no real cushion. Too many older workers getting downsized out of a jobs these days and having a hard time finding comparably employment not to think very hard about that kind of money.
I think it’s important to discuss the potential limitations of accepting the more pricey offers. For example, circumstances may be such that you cannot help pay for studying abroad or living in expensive locales for summer internships. Are they willing to accept that and pitch in? IR jobs before grad school aren’t handed out like candy. I think both girls have excellent second choices, but it’s better to convince them than to push them to accept the alternatives (so the choice is theirs).
I swear, If I had $10 for every time someone here dredges up the case of Curmudgeon’s D I’d be able to remodel my kitchen.
I’ve talked to Curmudgeon about this, and he doesn’t think his D should be the poster child for why going to a “lesser” school is just the same. He thinks his D would have had a more enriching undergraduate experience at Yale. They just couldn’t afford it. I take your point that at Rhodes she was a standout walking in, though.
Emphasis mine. Apparently you and I read this differently.
“A few years ago a CC parent’s pre-med DD chose between Yale with crummy need based aid or a full ride offer to Rhodes – she opted for Rhodes, and 2 years down the line she was a Goldwater Scholar.”
That was 9 years ago, not a few years ago and it was before HYP and other top colleges instituted their generous FA programs. DS was in the same boat that year- got into 2 Ivys and 12 other top schools, as well as USC with a full tuition scholarship. He chose USC.
Like curm’s D, DS was in the same boat that year, we were also self employed and needed to follow the $ and it did pay off. DS is now at Caltech doing his Phd.
DS might have gone to Chicago if we could have afforded it then.
Sorry, I was out of town the last couple days. I actually ran past the Wellesley “scream tunnel” on Monday morning :). Perhaps I am making assumptions about C & W, as people are making about my motivations, finances, kids, etc. It’s all kind of comical, but that’s what you get in an anonymous internet discussion, right?. This has been a very informative thread, regardless. Of course I’m sure the girls could do well at either of those schools, but an EFC is just a number, and it seems to bear little resemblance to the actual reality of what anyone can pay out of their own resources. For us, it would entail considerable debt. In fairness, as I may have made some assumptions about those two schools, I think it’s fair to say some parents who sent their kids to Ivies make similar assumptions about the quality of an education and post graduate opportunities available to kids at non-Ivy schools. Some posters even seem to be of the belief that I just want to follow the free money to my kids’ detriment. I have already stated several times that there will be no shortage of highly intelligent kids at each of the schools they are considering. I know that they have excelled at their high school because they have found a community of like minded intellectual peers. I’m certainly not going to encourage them to go to a school where they will lose that dynamic. At any of the schools offering merit money, they would already be in an honors college environment within the larger school. Beyond that, the kids getting the merit money are even more highly accomplished among their honors college peers. We have met administrators, professors and students at each school under consideration. If I thought my kids weren’t going to be challenged, and the only good option was C or W, we would probably be looking at this decision in a whole different light, but that is hardly the case. Thank you all for your input, and please feel free to continue to add to the discussion. I’ll post back when the final decisions are in. Oh, and whoever asked, UB is University of Buffalo. They both had a full ride, but neither is interested.
DW and I went to top schools on financial aid. I got nearly a free ride to MIT with a few small subsidized loans. Our educations have served us extremely well and opened great doors. There was no way we were going to deny our kids the same opportunities so since 1996, we saved up priority one. It wasn’t hard to figure out how much college was going to cost. We just took MIT’s cost in 1996 and multiplied by 1.04 times the previous year. The result was remarkably close to what college actually cost us. We still drive used cars, though nice ones. We only recently bought a vacation home. Those are our values - education first. I expect that our kids will pass on those values.
Now I’m not judging, I’m glad your kids have good options, and you are certainly free to make your rationalizations. But I think the decision comes down to how much the $50K/yr hurts and whether what you’d have to give up is worth it to you. But I think that your kids are giving up something of value by turning down Cornell and Wellesley. I wish them well.
@OffTheyGo, it sounds like your family is going about this decision in a careful and rationale way. That’s all you can be expected to do. Many of us have been through the tough, sometimes painful/sad period. Good luck and they really are likely to thrive wherever they are planted.
Look at your retirement savings and “rainy day” savings, and then decide whether you can truly afford to pay the projected college costs. Jobs are lost, disabilities and illnesses happen, and catastrophic weather is no longer that unusual. Don’t “mortgage your future” to one college’s costs that can otherwise be satisfactorily met by another more affordable choice.
CRDad if you paid for 2 (3?) kids to go full pay at private colleges AND were able to buy a vacation home, you clearly are high earners. Good for you. But you must recognize that is a very unusual situation and not applicable to most of us who can’t afford elite school tuition. You must make a very good income. I would also prioritize dream college over vacation home or fancy cars, but not over being able to retire in reasonable comfort.
If the word “considerable” means “more than you are comfortable with” - then those elite colleges are not affordable.
I did borrow to fund my kids’ college, but I had a clear idea of what my limit was before going in. I borrowed an amount that I knew I could easily afford to make current payments while my kids were in school, and that I was sure I could pay off fully once the kids were out of college and I no longer had ongoing expenses related to their financial support or college.
Don’t let anyone feel that that you are shortchanging your kids if you can’t afford the designer label.
My son attended a small liberal arts college in the same cohort as Wellesley and went to Cornell for graduate school. For our family and for him personally the investment (and subsequent debt) was worth it in quality of education, graduate school admissions, lifetime network and career advantage. If we had to do it again knowing what we know today, we would, in a heartbeat.
Having said that, every family’s financial situation is different. Even if you establish that Wellesley and Cornell have greater educational and career “value” than your daughters’ other choices, it’s impossible to quantify that advantage. (I’m not that familiar with the other choices to compare; I can only attest to the long term value of schools like Wellesley and Cornell.)
Whether a Cornell/Wellesley education is worth $200,000 to your family depends on your relative financial situation – your age, your income, your assets etc. $200,000 is a terrifyingly huge sum to some families and a serious but manageable outlay to others. I would also consider if you would be willing or able to redirect the money “saved” by not choosing Cornell/Wellesley to graduate school funding
If your daughters have a strong preference for Wellesley/Cornell, I’d suggest that you come to an in-family financial agreement with them. Perhaps you could split the additional cost with them, 75/25 or 65/35. That would leave each of them with a $25,000 to $35,000 debt on graduation. Not ideal, but I think, not debilitating either.
Agree completely 100%. The OP was asking for input and before me it was all one sided. How useful is that?
Only OP knows the situation about whether it is indeed affordable and what considerable means. These colleges do TRY to make it within your budget though they expect you to bear pain. I just thought I’d provide another side. No judgement intended.
It’s hardly been one sided Rocker dad. So far it seems that people who have gone the Ivy route, or who have sent their kids there, seem to have an understandably strong bias toward that option, though they can never truly know what the experience/opportunities would have been elsewhere, because that was not the option they chose. Any attempt to compare is pure conjecture. Same is true of course for the other side, though I personally know so many who have not gone Ivy and who’ve done very well in life. Everyone can draw what conclusions they wish from that. I’ll will add that several friends of ours sent their kids to private school for k-12, and some questioned our choice to go the public school route. I can assure you that no one is questioning that choice any longer.
If you told your daughter that you can afford 25K per student, they did due diligence and found colleges they liked for 25K, and now you pull the rug from under them because there are cheaper options, there’s a problem - I’m a big believer in doing what you said you would (all things being equal). Ultimately, if you have 25K and promised 25K, they should be able to choose where they’d rather go.
If you didn’t specify, or if 25K is more than you’d planned, then the situation is different.
Now, how different are those colleges?
Wellesley’s the most different - in environment, “comfort of learning”, etc. Small classes - not just for 2 honors seminars, but for all classes. Access to an exceptional and exceptionally tight alumnae network (dedicated to helping young women succeed in their post-college careers). Less drinking/partying, and less of a general “party culture” than at all other choices presented.
I agree with you that peers will be bright in the Honors Colleges, so check how much of a courseload is honors-only, especially during the first two years, and how much your child would be able to “skip” to avoid the intro courses (as the freshman, and sometimes sophomore, non-honors classes tend to be very big.)
The major matters too: engineering, CS, it doesn’t matter at all. IB? Wellesley’s the only choice. For prestige-driven careers (IR, art history, entertainment/publishing would be others), the “college brand name” can be the difference between a paid or unpaid or zero internship, between something lined up after college and no job prospects. For other careers, there’s a middle ground between these.
